A WRATHFUL GOD & THE ATONEMENT

[GodsGrace]

I personally believe that if it is found in the Bible, there is a reason why it is there. I get that you may not understand the role of the slave, but Jesus said it, I consider it critical, and since we are under the commandment to teach all the things he commanded, I believe you might consider examining it to see the credibility of it, as well as the importance to the Christian faith.

Hi H,
Could you explain, fast, what you mean by the faithful slave?

 

[JLB]

Doesn’t say that anywhere in the Bible. Says we all tend to sin starting in our youth, not infancy.

• and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men.

How does sin and death spread to all me if not through procreation?



JLB

 

[journeyman]

The substitute was the animal, but that was insufficient which is why God had to come himself to sacrifice himself once for all. This is all in Hebrews.

The animal sacrificed wasn't a substitute, but was inferior because once it was slain, it remained dead,

So Christ was onceoffered to bear the sins of many;and unto them that look for himshall he appear the second timewithout sin unto salvation. Heb.9:28

Of course not, there still needs to be justice, but that justice is fulfilled only on the cross.

Justice isn't fulfilled on the cross. Justice comes later,

Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written,Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord. Rom.12:19

What does this have to do with Christ on the cross?

This,

Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.....Love your enemies.....That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven
Mt.5:38-39,44-45

God will forgive those who repent of the sins committed against him, even the murder of his Son. Eve for eye will take place at his judgement seat,

Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust. Jn.5:45

For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; Rom.2:12

 

[Dorothy Mae]

I personally believe that if it is found in the Bible, there is a reason why it is there.

Quote it.

I get that you may not understand the role of the slave, but Jesus said it, I consider it critical, and since we are under the commandment to teach all the things he commanded, I believe you might consider examining it to see the credibility of it, as well as the importance to the Christian faith.

Slave isn’t there. Slaves have no choice.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

• and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men.

How does sin and death spread to all me if not through procreation?



JLB

To repeat, because sin entered THE WORLD not man and we are all born into this world. It particularly doesn’t say sin entered Adam. Says we all sin, not we all have an inborn sin nature

 

[Whatever]

Romans 5 doesn’t say we were born in sin. It says we all (choose to) sin.

Yes, but Romans 5 isn't the only verse in the Bible.

Psa 58:3 The wicked are estranged from the womb; They go astray as soon as they are born, speaking lies.

Amplified Bible
Psalm 51:5
I was brought forth in [a state of] wickedness;
In sin my mother conceived me [and from my beginning I, too, was sinful].

Christian Standard Bible
Indeed, I was guilty when I was born;
I was sinful when my mother conceived me.

New International Version
Surely I was sinful at birth,
sinful from the time my mother conceived me.

New King James
Eph 2:3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.

 

[GodsGrace]

Great question maam, easy answer but not necessarily easy to understand. Most likely most of us were raised with the philosophy that 2 wrongs don't make a right. But it has to do with God's perfect law, eye for eye, tooth for tooth, soul for soul. When Adam chose to sin, he lost life for all humans since no human was born prior to his sin, thus we were born in sin Rom 5:12. We learned through the law, that sins could be redeemed based on their seriousness through sacrifices, but of course none could buy back the loss of Adams sin. An equal sacrifice had to be offered to buy that back. Since no human could redeem us, God chose to send His son to be a human, exacting to Adam. Thankfully Jesus did not sin, therefore he was equal to Adam and could be offered up to buy back the life Adam lost. That is the truthful and honest answer, even though it may not compute in our minds.

It computes very well in our minds.
Every Christian will agree with you although some nuances may be understood differently.

But my question has to do with the atonement theories.
I was wondering who agreed with the Penal Substitution Theory since it came about so late in the life of the church.

Here's a good link to 6 or 7 of the most important:
If you read through it and care to come back for an opinion, that would be nice.

7 Theories of the Atonement Summarized - Stephen D. Morrison

7 Theories of the Atonement discussed and briefly explained. Article by Stephen D Morrison

www.sdmorrison.org

 

[JLB]

To repeat, because sin entered THE WORLD not man and we are all born into this world. It particularly doesn’t say sin entered Adam. Says we all sin, not we all have an inborn sin nature

I never mentioned sin entered Adam.


I did ask this question.

How does sin and death spread to all men if not through procreation?


Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men…



JLB

 

[Dorothy Mae]

I never mentioned sin entered Adam.

Who is the “one man” through whom sin entered the world then?

I did ask this question.

How does sin and death spread to all men if not through procreation?

I told you already. Sin entered the world. We are born into the world.

Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men…

See? Sin entered the world.

 

[Highway54]

Hi H,
Could you explain, fast, what you mean by the faithful slave?

Yes maam, thanks for asking. The faithful slave (Mat 24:45-47) was assigned by Jesus to shepherd his sheep (God's people) until his return. This would be most prominent during the last days in the regathering of God's people after the period of apostasy. Isa 2:2-4; Micah 4:1-5
They basically replaced the Sanhedrin of Jesus' day, they are the highest authority on earth, and have the final say over God's people in authoritative matters. The governing body of God's people.

 

[JLB]

Who is the “one man” through whom sin entered the world then?

Adam.

Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned— (For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.
Romans 5:12-14

Sin entered the human race through Adam not Eve because man carries the seed not the woman. Man perpetuates the human DNA through his seed.


This is why Jesus could be born of a virgin and remain sinless; having a physical body that was pure and sinless.




JLB

 

[Highway54]

Quote it.

Slave isn’t there. Slaves have no choice.

Quote it.

Although the faithful slave had nothing to do with the topic of the post, since you mentioned it I will be more than happy to post the passage of the faithful slave maam:
Mt 24:45 Who then is the faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath set over his household, to give them their food in due season?
Mt 24:46 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.
Mt 24:47 Verily I say unto you, that he will set him over all that he hath.


The point of the conversation you chose to join in on was God sending Jesus as a human, as no human born in imperfection could redeem us. Adam was perfect, and so was Jesus, if Jesus would have sinned during his earthly life, he as well could not serve as a redeemer. Jesus retained his perfection, and served as a corresponding ransom for what Adam lost.

 

[Highway54]

It computes very well in our minds.
Every Christian will agree with you although some nuances may be understood differently.

But my question has to do with the atonement theories.
I was wondering who agreed with the Penal Substitution Theory since it came about so late in the life of the church.

Here's a good link to 6 or 7 of the most important:
If you read through it and care to come back for an opinion, that would be nice.

7 Theories of the Atonement Summarized - Stephen D. Morrison

7 Theories of the Atonement discussed and briefly explained. Article by Stephen D Morrison

www.sdmorrison.org

Do you disagree that it has to be soul for soul? The Bible makes it simple:
ajntivlutron Antilutron (an-til'-oo-tron);
Word Origin: Greek, Noun Neuter, Strong #: 487
what is given in exchange for another as the price of his redemption, ransom
KJV Word Usage and Count
ransom 1

It had to be equal, since no man was equal to Adam that lost our lives, nor could any be born from a human father, God chose to inseminate Mary who made Jesus equal to Adam, unless he sinned of course. But since Jesus kept his integrity, his sacrifice was a corresponding ransom.

That is the Biblical explanation, of the 7 you posted #2 is the closest to my understanding.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Although the faithful slave had nothing to do with the topic of the post, since you mentioned it I will be more than happy to post the passage of the faithful slave maam:
Mt 24:45 Who then is the faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath set over his household, to give them their food in due season?
Mt 24:46 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.
Mt 24:47 Verily I say unto you, that he will set him over all that he hath.


The point of the conversation you chose to join in on was God sending Jesus as a human, as no human born in imperfection could redeem us. Adam was perfect, and so was Jesus, if Jesus would have sinned during his earthly life, he as well could not serve as a redeemer. Jesus retained his perfection, and served as a corresponding ransom for what Adam lost.

Still no “slave” there.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Adam.

Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned— (For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.
Romans 5:12-14

“Because all have sinned” not because all have received a sin nature.

Sin entered the human race through Adam not Eve because man carries the seed not the woman. Man perpetuates the human DNA through his seed.

That’s no where in scripture. You just don’t see that sin entered the world and through sin death because and solely because all have sinned. The wages of sin is death, not the wages of being born.

This is why Jesus could be born of a virgin and remain sinless; having a physical body that was pure and sinless.

That’s really silly because Jesus had no human father. He was sinless because he refused the temptation to sin. The above position means he couldn’t have sinned anyway so his perfection is meaningless.

It is difficult for people to accept that Jesus chose not to sin. It’s easier to think he couldn’t have anyway and the temptations were a sham.

 

[JLB]

Because all have sinned” not because all have received a sin nature.

Sin and Death spread to all men through Adam’s disobedience, therefore all people sin because they have received a sin nature through procreation.


Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good. For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. Romans 7:20-23

That’s really silly because Jesus had no human father.

Why do you think He was born of a virgin?






JLB

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Sin and Death spread to all men through Adam’s disobedience, therefore all people sin because they have received a sin nature through procreation.

That’s the theology but it’s no where in scripture which says specifically that men die because all men sin.

Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good. For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. Romans 7:20-23

As a grown man after decades of sin, yes there’s a character development hard to break. No one says this of babies.

Why do you think He was born of a virgin?

Well, a woman is the only option as a mother to carry a child. He was to be the only BEGOTTEN son of God. No one in the Bible said it was so he could be sinless. That’s a modern construct.

But if you’re going to theologically decide to find out why God sent his son as He did, I’d guarantee 100% failure to reach the why. His ways are past finding out by thinking.

 

[Highway54]

Still no “slave” there.

Great! Know this however, whom Jesus anointed as that slave, governs his sheep. Disobedience to the slave, is the same as disobedience to him maam. I did not put that into the Bible, and you are certainly free to ignore it, but it seems pretty critical to me that you identify them and accept the food that they provide. Just an opinion, like I said your choice.

 

[atpollard]

Romans 5 doesn’t say we were born in sin. It says we all (choose to) sin.

Psalms does ...

Psalm 51:5-6 [NKJV]
5 Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity,
And in sin my mother conceived me.
6 Behold, You desire truth in the inward parts,
And in the hidden part You will make me to know wisdom.

• We are born sinful.
• God teaches us truth and wisdom.

 

[atpollard]

If you don't know much about this subject, try an article by Morrison, Theories of Atonement .

For easy reference ...

7 Theories of the Atonement Summarized - Stephen D. Morrison

7 Theories of the Atonement discussed and briefly explained. Article by Stephen D Morrison

www.sdmorrison.org