A WRATHFUL GOD & THE ATONEMENT

[atpollard]

#1 The Moral Influence Theory​

One of the earliest theories for the atonement is the Moral Influence theory, which simply taught that Jesus Christ came and died in order to bring about a positive change to humanity. This moral change comes through the teachings of Jesus alongside His example and actions. The most notable name here is that of Augustine from the 4th century, whose influence has almost single-handedly had the greatest impact upon Western Christianity. He affirmed the Moral Influence theory as the main theory of the Atonement (alongside the Ransom theory as well).​

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Within this theory the death of Christ is understood as a catalyst to reform society, inspiring men and women to follow His example and live good moral lives of love. In this theory, the Holy Spirit comes to help Christians produce this moral change. Logically, in this theory, the Eschatological development too becomes about morality, where it is taught that after death the human race will be judged by their conduct in life. This in turn creates a strong emphasis on free will as the human response to follow Jesus’ example. Although Augustine himself differs here in that he did not teach free will, but instead that human beings are incapable of changing themselves, and require God to radically alter their lives sovereignly through the Holy Spirit.​

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This theory focuses on not just the death of Jesus Christ, but on His entire life. This sees the saving work of Jesus not only in the event of the crucifixion, but also in all the words He has spoken, and the example He has set. In this theory, the cross is merely a ramification of the moral life of Jesus. He is crucified as a martyr due to the radical nature of His moral example. In this way, the Moral Influence theory emphasizes Jesus Christ as our teacher, our example, our founder and leader, and ultimately, as a result, our first martyr.​

This theory actually bothers me more than Penal Substitutionary Atonement (God punished Jesus). While Jesus' life CERTAINLY taught us how to live, the thought that we are somehow going to "fix" the world runs counter to most of scripture and feeds the modern "Christless" church as a social club / self-help group movement that I see growing in too many denominations where the COMMUNITY NEEDS have become the mission and the Gospel has been watered down to avoid offending any one.

 

[Tenchi]

The Reformation brought with it the atonement theory known as Penal Substitution.

God is so angry at the humans He created, because of their sin, that He demanded a sacrifice to satisfy His anger.

Is this why Jesus had to die?

There are other atonement theories also.

Do you like the one above?
A different one?

If you don't know much about this subject, try an article by Morrison, Theories of Atonement .

Why DID Jesus have to be sacrificed?

I have a short book by Dr. William Lane Craig on the doctrine of the Atonement that I think does a wonderful job of tying together all of the most prominent views on the doctrine around the core of Penal Substitutionary Atonement. Rather than pitting them against one another, Dr. Craig forms a synthesis of the various views, which I think is excellent. He does, though, demonstrate that the Penal Substitutionary view of Christ's Atonement is both very biblical and very consistent with features of justice that we humans recognize in our own legal systems of jurisprudence. He also deals with the many Strawman versions of PSA that opposing views have erected, illustrating how they misrepresent the view. I'd highly recommend this little text to anyone investigating this matter!

"Cambridge Elements: Philosophy of Religion - The Atonement," by William Lane Craig, Cambridge University Press, 2018.

 

[atpollard]

The Reformation brought with it the atonement theory known as Penal Substitution.

God is so angry at the humans He created, because of their sin, that He demanded a sacrifice to satisfy His anger.

Is this why Jesus had to die?

There are other atonement theories also.

Do you like the one above?
A different one?

If you don't know much about this subject, try an article by Morrison, Theories of Atonement .

Why DID Jesus have to be sacrificed?

Let's be honest and admit three facts:

• God IS angry at sin (see Romans 1:18).
• Jesus did suffer for OUR sins (see 1 John 4:10)
• MOST of the theories of Atonement focus on God "demanded a sacrifice to satisfy His anger."

#2 The Ransom Theory​

“Essentially, this theory claimed that Adam and Eve sold humanity over to the devil at the time of the Fall’ hence, justice required that God pay the Devil a ransom, for the Devil did not realize that Christ could not be held in the bonds of death. Once the Devil accepted Christ’s death as a ransom, this theory concluded, justice was satisfied and God was able to free us from Satan’s grip.”​

• The DEVIL and not GOD demanded the sacrifice, but a distinction without a real difference.

​

#4 The Satisfaction Theory (Anselm)​

In the 12th century, Anselm of Canterbury proposed a satisfaction theory for the Atonement. In this theory, Jesus Christ’s death is understood as a death to satisfy the justice of God. Satisfaction here means restitution, the mending of what was broken, and the paying back of a debt. In this theory, Anselm emphasizes the justice of God and claims that sin is an injustice that must be balanced. Anselm’s satisfaction theory says essentially that Jesus Christ died in order to pay back the injustice of human sin and to satisfy the justice of God.​

• Jesus death satisfies God's Justice.

#5 The Penal Substitutionary Theory​

Penal Substitutionary Atonement is a development of the Reformation. The Reformers, Specifically Calvin and Luther, took Anselm’s Satisfaction theory and modified it slightly. They added a more legal (or forensic) framework into this notion of the cross as satisfaction. The result is that within Penal Substitution, Jesus Christ dies to satisfy God’s wrath against human sin. Jesus is punished (penal) in the place of sinners (substitution) in order to satisfy the justice of God and the legal demand of God to punish sin. In the light of Jesus’ death, God can now forgive the sinner because Jesus Christ has been punished in the place of the sinner, in this way meeting the retributive requirements of God’s justice. This legal balancing of the ledgers is at the heart of this theory, which claims that Jesus died for legal satisfaction. It’s also worth mentioning that in this theory the notion of imputed righteousness is postulated.​

• Jesus punishment satisfies God's justice.

#6 The Governmental Theory​

The Governmental Theory of the Atonement is a slight variation upon the Penal Substitutionary theory, which is notably held in Methodism. The main difference here is the extent to which Christ suffered. In the Governmental Theory, Jesus Christ suffers the punishment of our sin and propitiates God’s wrath. In this way, it is similar to Penal Substitution. However, in the Governmental Theory, Jesus Christ does not take the exact punishment we deserve, He takes a punishment. Jesus dies on the cross therefore to demonstrate the displeasure of God towards sin. He died to display God’s wrath against sin and the high price which must be paid, but not to specifically satisfy that particular wrath. The Governmental Theory also teaches that Jesus died only for the church, and if you by faith are part of the church, you can take part in God’s salvation. The church then acts as the sort of hiding place from God’s punishment. This view contrasts both the Penal and Satisfaction models but retains the fundamental belief that God cannot forgive if Jesus does not die a propitiating death.​

• Jesus punishment satisfies God's justice for the Church (collectively, rather than individually).

#7 The Scapegoat Theory​

James Allison summarizes the Scapegoating Theory like this, “Christianity is a priestly religion which understands that it is God’s overcoming of our violence by substituting himself for the victim of our typical sacrifices that opens up our being able to enjoy the fullness of creation as if death were not.”​

• It is we (sinful people) that demand a sacrifice, so God offers up Himself to satisfy our sin.

So we cannot reject theories simply because we flinch at the thought of an angry God ... God IS ANGRY ... God will pour out His WRATH (to deny that is to deny Scripture). The question is more practical ... Does scripture actually say that God was angry at Jesus or poured out His wrath upon Jesus?

For me, one must carefully examine what the verses say and what they do not say (but we merely read into them). I don't care which version is correct ... I just want to know what SCRIPTURE has to say about it. So we must treat each with both care and caution (because we are all naturally biased by what we were "TOLD" by someone in the past).

 

[atpollard]

That’s the theology but it’s no where in scripture which says specifically that men die because all men sin.

Why do babies die within hours of birth ... what sin did they have time to do?

 

[journeyman]

He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love. 1Jn.4:8

Love is patient...1Cor.13:4

 

[gordon777]

Theories are what scientists have, ( theory of evolution.)

Do you guys think to have a discussion about theories, shows faith in the rising of Jesus Christ from the dead ?


Jesus Christ is the life and light of men, but men are death, they are darkness.


John 1:4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

John 1:9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.



John 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.


Jesus shows He is the true light, ( the true light is not overcome of darkness, the true light overcomes darkness/this world.)


Many false prophets rise to deceive many, ( reformations. Matthew 24:11.) do you think they can still be shown and not be revealed and destroyed by the brightness of Christ coming now.



2 Thessalonians 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

 

[gordon777]

It is time to awake out of sleep, ( darkness) as the night ( time of deception of many false prophets) is far spent, the day is at hand, to cast off the works of darkness, ( being deceived by doctrines of devils. 1 Timothy 4;1-2.) PUT ON THE ARMOUR OF LIGHT.

Walk honestly as in the day, no longer strife ( debate, dispute, discussions, contentions)

BUT PUT ON THE LORD JESUS CHRIST, no longer making provision to the flesh to fulfil the lusts of it. ( no longer theories, begin by stopping that way that was given, to be overcome with Christ. ( light overcomes the darkness of the foolish wisdom of this world.)



Romans 13:11 And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed.
12 The night is far spent, the day is at hand: let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armour of light.
13 Let us walk honestly, as in the day; not in rioting and drunkenness, not in chambering and wantonness, not in strife and envying.
14 But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof.

 

[GodsGrace]

It is time to awake out of sleep, ( darkness) as the night ( time of deception of many false prophets) is far spent, the day is at hand, to cast off the works of darkness, ( being deceived by doctrines of devils. 1 Timothy 4;1-2.) PUT ON THE ARMOUR OF LIGHT.

Walk honestly as in the day, no longer strife ( debate, dispute, discussions, contentions)

BUT PUT ON THE LORD JESUS CHRIST, no longer making provision to the flesh to fulfil the lusts of it. ( no longer theories, begin by stopping that way that was given, to be overcome with Christ. ( light overcomes the darkness of the foolish wisdom of this world.)



Romans 13:11 And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed.
12 The night is far spent, the day is at hand: let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armour of light.
13 Let us walk honestly, as in the day; not in rioting and drunkenness, not in chambering and wantonness, not in strife and envying.
14 But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof.

You worry me Gordon.
You see the world in a very negative light.
You see believers in a negative light.

I think everyone on this forum knows that the evil one is the prince of the air. But why give him the glory?

Jesus said if we walk with Him we will not walk in darkness but will have the light of life.

Persons join forums for different reasons.
We try hard not to attract those that like to argue because they cause division and unpleasantness.

I have my reason for being here.
Why are you here?

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Great! Know this however, whom Jesus anointed as that slave, governs his sheep. Disobedience to the slave, is the same as disobedience to him maam. I did not put that into the Bible, and you are certainly free to ignore it, but it seems pretty critical to me that you identify them and accept the food that they provide. Just an opinion, like I said your choice.

Since you can’t quote a “faithful slave” whose teaching you must obey, it’s easy to see it’s not there.

 

[eddif]

The substitute was the animal, but that was insufficient which is why God had to come himself to sacrifice himself once for all. This is all in Hebrews.


Of course not, there still needs to be justice, but that justice is fulfilled only on the cross. What does this have to do with Christ on the cross?

IMHO
The first symbols of the cross are probably the star constellations.

Jesus slain from the foundation of the world.
Revelation 13:8 ljv
8. And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

We have to back up to day Four of creation.
Pretty far back.
We have to go to the wise men who knew of the birth of Jesus from the stars.

So written in the stars is a lot of information about Jesus.

Not so much about us, but about Jesus.
Another thread probably.

On to the brazen serpent on a pole. Probably one of the first symbols of looking to a cross/pole for healing. Jesus on the cross is our hope.

I had not noticed this thread till I saw it in recent posts this morning. I am hooked already.

Mississippi redneck
eddif

 

[JLB]

That’s the theology but it’s no where in scripture

Again here it is written in scripture.

Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned.
Romans 5:12

• just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men

…through one man sin entered the world

Through one man, Adam, sin entered the world. The world refers to people; the human race.

God so loved the world; the human race.


Please explain how sin entered the human race, the entire human race, if not through procreation?


Hint: this is why Jesus was born of a virgin.




JLB

 

[eddif]

Please explain how sin entered the human race, the entire human race, if not through procreation?

Ezekiel 28:15 kjv
15. Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

In heaven there is no procreation.

Satan could not wait to infect the hearts of some angels or (it it spread like a disease)

The serpent chose words to spread the error.
It spreads like a cancer.


Mississippi redneck
eddif

 

[JLB]

In heaven there is no procreation.

He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For by Him all things were created that are in heaven… Colossians 1:15-16

The Father beget His only begotten Son.

The Firstborn was born before creation, as He Himself created all things.


Do you believe the only begotten Son was begotten in heaven or on earth?


Hint: that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.


That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. John 3:6






JLB

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Again here it is written in scripture.

Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned.
Romans 5:12

• just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men

…through one man sin entered the world

Through one man, Adam, sin entered the world. The world refers to people; the human race.

God so loved the world; the human race.


Please explain how sin entered the human race, the entire human race, if not through procreation?


Hint: this is why Jesus was born of a virgin.




JLB

We are going round and round. It says “sin entered the world” and “death because all men sin.”


Men sin because sin entered the world. I’ve repeated this.

Now the theological “reason”
men have concocted as to why God was confined to using a virgin so that Jesus wouldn’t have a sin nature and couldn’t sin if he wanted to, I don’t believe although I can see why this comforts sinners. It’s a lot easier to think that Jesus has an advantage when it came to sin to ease the conscience.

Shall we move on?

 

[atpollard]

Shall we move on?

Unlikely.

 

[GodsGrace]

We are going round and round. It says “sin entered the world” and “death because all men sin.”


Men sin because sin entered the world. I’ve repeated this.

Now the theological “reason”
men have concocted as to why God was confined to using a virgin so that Jesus wouldn’t have a sin nature and couldn’t sin if he wanted to, I don’t believe although I can see why this comforts sinners. It’s a lot easier to think that Jesus has an advantage when it came to sin to ease the conscience.

Shall we move on?

What does sin entered the world mean?
Does the world sin?
Can the world receive judgement and end up in heaven or hell?

Does God so loved the world mean He loves the clouds and mountains and some world paradigm or other?

Is the bible about the relationship between God and man? Or between God and the world?

I wish you'd get it out of your head that we believe in the sin nature as an excuse to sin.

Doesn't Romans 1:20, or so, state that man is without excuse?

Do you think so lowly of us, your brothers in Christ, to believe that we search for an excuse to sin?

 

[JLB]

We are going round and round. It says “sin entered the world” and “death because all men sin.”

Nope. It doesnt say that.

That's why I quoted the verse, and then bullet pointed the actual content of the verse, so we can discuss the actual words of scripture.

Again here it is written in scripture.

Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned.
Romans 5:12

• just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men

…through one man sin entered the world

The sin from Adam entered the world; entered the human race.

Everyone that came into the world through procreation received from Adam sin.

Sin and death spread to all men through Adam.



JLB

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Nope. It doesnt say that.

That's why I quoted the verse, and then bullet pointed the actual content of the verse, so we can discuss the actual words of scripture.

Again here it is written in scripture.

Therefore, just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned.
Romans 5:12

• just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men

…through one man sin entered the world

The sin from Adam entered the world; entered the human race.

Everyone that came into the world through procreation received from Adam sin.

Sin and death spread to all men through Adam.



JLB

It point blank says “sin entered the world.” It says “death through sin because all men sin.”

 

[Dorothy Mae]

What does sin entered the world mean?

Good question. Sin didn’t enter man, this we know.

Does the world sin?

Who became the god of this world who wasn’t before?

Can the world receive judgement and end up in heaven or hell?

The scripture refers often to the world…God so loved the world….be in the world but not of it…

Does God so loved the world mean He loves the clouds and mountains and some world paradigm or other?

The world doesn’t mean nature.

Is the bible about the relationship between God and man? Or between God and the world?

He calls men out of the world, right?

I wish you'd get it out of your head that we believe in the sin nature as an excuse to sin.

I can’t because I’ve heard Christians actually blame their sin nature. It’s not uncommon. Just ask people here why they sin and “sin nature” will be the answer. Why do you sin?

Doesn't Romans 1:20, or so, state that man is without excuse?

Doesn’t change the fact that this is the excuse used.

Do you think so lowly of us, your brothers in Christ, to believe that we search for an excuse to sin?

Ah, the ad hominem attack. You’re a better woman than to
sink to that.

 

[eddif]

He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For by Him all things were created that are in heaven… Colossians 1:15-16

The Father beget His only begotten Son.

The Firstborn was born before creation, as He Himself created all things.


Do you believe the only begotten Son was begotten in heaven or on earth?


Hint: that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.


That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. John 3:6






JLB

Boy you triggered a thought or two .
Image of the Godhead bodily.

1. The Son was born of the spirit before creation.
2. His spiritual birth bled into the hidden things of creation. The sun is the Father. the moon is the Son. Wind is the Spirit
3. Seed are the word of God
4. Ground is men’s hearts
5. The clouds are the cerebral cortex
6. The cerebellum is the tree on either side of the river in Revelation
7. The angry waves of the book of Job are wrath
8. The beach that absorbs the wrath is the back of Jesus when he was whipped
9. Much more

The physical birth revealed the hidden things into full view.

One spiritual birth in heaven
One begotten birth on esrth

We are the reverse
Born of woman first
Born again of the Spirit second
Completely changed at the last trump.

Jesus surely bore the wrath we deserve.

Mississippi redneck eddif