About money again

[Malachi]

Abraham is quite explicit that the rich man's demise was the material wealth that filled his life on earth, and how things are reversed in the afterlife.

That is not really what Abraham said as you have interpreted. But What God saw is what God saw, and God saw a man who utterly failed to love his neighbour as himself. And it is ultimately what God saw that determined the fate of the rich man. Once again, you failed to go behind the scene and see things from God's perspective. And the Judge's perspective is the only thing which counted.

 

[Classik]

using his money to show love? He didn't

 

[KevinK]

I understand my viewpoint will not receive widespread support. I understand your guys' viewpoint, and validate it as considered and intelligent. But I am sticking to my own viewpoint, as apparently unique as it is.

It's not that I don't understand your viewpoint; it's that I don't agree with it. Also note that I am not trying to change your mind, it's just that I have a right to express my opinion even if it conflicts with others. I won't change your mind, and you won't change mine. Agreeing to disagree.

 

[Kenny_ms]

, it's just that I have a right to express my opinion even if it conflicts with others.

As long as that's not the only reason you express it and I see no evidence of that, you absolutely should do so and stick with it if you feel that's right.

Can you sum up your viewpoint? Is it that being rich is bad......period?

 

[KevinK]

As long as that's not the only reason you express it and I see no evidence of that, you absolutely should do so and stick with it if you feel that's right.

Can you sum up your viewpoint? Is it that being rich is bad......period?

Well, no, not exactly. It's not that having a lot of wealth is inherently bad; it's that it is a very, very bad strategy for someone who wishes to go to Heaven some day. I'll try to explain...

I believe we're put on this earth for a reason: basically to suffer hardships and emptiness. Why on earth would a loving God put his beloved creations through something like that? In order to achieve a higher level of appreciation for Father God and everything He does for us. Being with Him is the source of all true happiness and fulfillment. Being apart from Him is the source of all misery and pain. By being in the pain for a little while (that tiny interval of time known as a life), we come to appreciate His mercy at a whole new level.

But not if something else is taking away our hardship, and money can do just that. It creates the illusion of happiness and fulfillment, but it is just that, an illusion, a bubble that will burst at the moment of death, and without a true appreciation of the Almighty that you should have been developing all your life, you have nothing to stand on, and you (literally) fall to Hell.

So having a lot of money is not technically wrong, just a bad idea, and that is exactly how Jesus explains it. "Again I say to you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God." He doesn't say it's a sin in the usual sense of the word (although I think there are broader definitions of the word "sin" that do apply), He just says it's making things much tougher than it needs to be. Not impossible, but next to impossible, and who wants odds like that when you're talking about your soul and eternity?

p.s. I have actually known some wonderful people who happen to also have a lot of money. I have no doubt they will be with Jesus some day, so it definitely isn't impossible. Take it case-by-case.

 

[Kenny_ms]

Well, no, not exactly. It's not that having a lot of wealth is inherently bad; it's that it is a very, very bad strategy for someone who wishes to go to Heaven some day. I'll try to explain...

I believe we're put on this earth for a reason: basically to suffer hardships and emptiness. Why on earth would a loving God put his beloved creations through something like that? In order to achieve a higher level of appreciation for Father God and everything He does for us. Being with Him is the source of all true happiness and fulfillment. Being apart from Him is the source of all misery and pain. By being in the pain for a little while (that short interval of time known as a life), we come to appreciate His mercy at a whole new level.

But not if something else is taking away our hardship, and money can do just that. It creates the illusion of happiness and fulfillment, but it is just that, an illusion, a bubble that will burst at the moment of death, and without a true appreciation of the Almighty that you should have been developing all your life, you have nothing to stand on, and you (literally) fall to Hell.

So having a lot of money is not technically wrong, just a bad idea, and that is exactly how Jesus explains it. "Again I say to you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God." He doesn't say it's a sin in the usual sense of the word, He just says it's making things much tougher than it needs to be. Not impossible, but next to impossible, and who wants odds like that?

p.s. I have actually known some wonderful people who happen to also have a lot of money. I have no doubt they will be with Jesus some day, so it definitely isn't impossible. Take it case-by-case.

OK, I see...fair enough.

However we do differ in that I don't think he put us here to have hardships/emptiness. We make out own hardships and we are not apart from God if we don't want to be, but in a sense, a very real sense, we are apart from him physically so, I get that and agree there is a reason for it.

We are to live life and since Jesus....live it more abundantly. That indicates to me, we aren't "supposed" to have hardships. If we follow his plan, we'll be fine and not suffer those hardships, if not, we most certainly will. And that's not to say even if we managed to be perfect, we won't suffer some hardships, but some of those hardships are because we didn't get out there and make enough money, when we could have. not saying that's you but it does happen.

I think he put us here for probably a lot of the same reasons you do, as a filtration process to simply see how we act, it's not at all complicated. He told us what we need to do, "Now lets see if they do it". I grant you, money can get out of hand and as I mentioned before, if you think that will happen to you, I can understand why you'd stay away from a lot of money.

That said, I don't think we actually disagree on a whole lot, with the exception of the fact we are supposed to have hardships. I think we should do all we can not to have those hardships and it's not only perfectly alright but expected by God that we take good care of ourselves, and not have hardship, or at least try not to. Now I could be wrong on that but if I am, I haven't convinced myself as of yet.

 

[KevinK]

Well, that's wonderful...being more in agreement than I thought at first. Praise the Lord.

On the hardship thing. I seldom find anyone who agrees with me on that one, so I'm used to it. Now, I don't necessarily think you should manufacture hardship if you don't have enough (wow..who doesn't have enough?), nor do I think you should avoid reducing it if you can. I think God does a terrific job of dialing in just the amount of pain we can handle. Reduce it if you can, but realize that it's there for a reason in the first place.

In my case it's unavoidable anyway, and there's nothing I can do about it. I had a Traumatic Brain Injury being a passenger in a bad car wreck 39 years ago, and have since suffered from chronic fatigue syndrome, fibromyalgia, migraine headaches, and psychological problems. There is no cure or treatment for TBI, and only management therapy for my specific symptoms (mostly opiate pain medications, making me a drug addict as well). No amount of money can change this situation. I can tell you from experience, when you're in pain, money doesn't mean a whole lot to you. I may be this way for the rest of my life.

 

[KevinK]

Maybe one last thing about hardship...I don't know how you feel about things like visions, near death experiences, out-of-body experiences (I've had one). I've studied a number of them, and in a rather famous one God tells a person who has just committed suicide, "Life's supposed to be hard. You can't skip over parts. We have all done it. You must earn what you receive." I don't believe this was a false vision, a lie or illusion from Satan (although such are common), I do believe this was a real communication from the Father.

 

[Kenny_ms]

Well, that's wonderful...being more in agreement than I thought at first. Praise the Lord.

On the hardship thing. I seldom find anyone who agrees with me on that one, so I'm used to it. Now, I don't necessarily think you should manufacture hardship if you don't have enough (wow..who doesn't have enough?), nor do I think you should avoid reducing it if you can. I think God does a terrific job of dialing in just the amount of pain we can handle. Reduce it if you can, but realize that it's there for a reason in the first place.

In my case it's unavoidable anyway, and there's nothing I can do about it. I had a Traumatic Brain Injury being a passenger in a bad car wreck 39 years ago, and have since suffered from chronic fatigue syndrome, fibromyalgia, migraine headaches, and psychological problems. There is no cure or treatment for TBI, and only management therapy for my specific symptoms (mostly opiate pain medications, making me a drug addict as well). All I can say, if I end up in hell, it won't be for lack of pain.

The accident explains a lot and I'm not certain my attitude would be near as good as yours if that happened to me. Some people would get mad at God, did I say mad? how bout furious, and you do well to still love him as you do and assume there is a purpose behind it. Nope, I'd say no Hell for you, just hang in there and never give up.

I was diagnosed with a case of Polio at a couple months of age and it left me with no lap muscle so the rest of the one leg naturally got smaller due to the way I was able to use it. Fortunately, I hunted, fished, worked construction at times and still walk today without even a cane usually. I missed the vaccine by... well, it was in the testing stages when I contracted the disease. So between that and being on narcotics for a time when my good knee went bad and suffering regular, very debilitating migraines till I was just over 40, I can somewhat relate but probably only somewhat. I think it happened for a reason or maybe it was just bad luck, I honestly don't know but doesn't sound like I suffer like you do.....I'm sorry you have to and hope life is at least bearable for you.

One thing I know for certain, things like this make us about as ready as one can be for that new body/life. My main problem was I was never able to run. Think I'll go out for the sports team in heaven...which one? all of them.

 

[Kenny_ms]

Maybe one last thing about hardship...I don't know how you feel about things like visions, near death experiences, out-of-body experiences (I've had one). I've studied a number of them, and in a rather famous one God tells a person who has just committed suicide, "Life's supposed to be hard. You can't skip over parts. We have all done it. You must earn what you receive." I don't believe this was a false vision, a lie or illusion from Satan (although such are common), I do believe this was a real communication from the Father.

I haven't experienced any visions, but they are biblical so I know they happen. Near death experiences are visions and though the mind can be a tricky thing and I want to say people don't see what they think they say all the time but thinking they saw it is all there is, so actually, they do..... Tricky mind and iffy experiences aside, I have little if any doubt, some experience real near death experiences.

Seems I had a little something happen when the steering wheel came off my MG at around 60, no control and just as I veered off the road and headed towards the barbed wire fence, I seem to recall a slight life flash. When I pushed on the steering wheel bracing for the crash, it pushed it back on to the gear splines and all was well.

I can go with life is supposed to be hard and it is "sometimes" but not all the time and I can see how some can get by with very little hardship, and I'm talking about Christians. It is hard for you and I won't pretend to think I'd feel any differently than you do if I had those issues. I only mentioned my handicap to say, I do have some issues, so though I can relate, but only somewhat.

 

[Classik]

The accident explains a lot and I'm not certain my attitude would be near as good as yours if that happened to me. Some people would get mad a God, did I say mad? how bout furious, and you do well to still love him as you do and assume there is a purpose behind it. Nope, I'd say no Hell for you, just hang in there and never give up.

I was diagnosed with a case of Polio at a couple months of age and it left me with no lap muscle so the rest of the one leg naturally got smaller due to the way I was able to use it. Fortunately, I hunted, fished, worked construction at times and still walk today without even a cane usually. I missed the vaccine by... well, it was in the testing stages when I contracted the disease. So between that and being on narcotics for a time when my good knee went bad and suffering regular, very debilitating migraines till I was just over 40, I can somewhat relate but probably only somewhat. I think it happened for a reason or maybe it was just bad luck, I honestly don't know but doesn't sound like I suffer like you do.....I'm sorry you have to and hope life is at least bearable for you.

One thing I know for certain, things like this make us about as ready as one can be for that new body/life. My main problem was I was never able to run. Think I'll go out for the sports team in heaven...which one? all of them.

FC Barcelona! Soccer will be the major sport in heaven

 

[Corn Pop]

I dont think there is anything wrong with being rich but i do think its hard for the rich to find the truth.

I get it all the time. Even today. There are alot of stubborn selfish angry people who think the world owes them something.

Last week i was parked a tiny bit crooked and there was a old man in the passenger seat of a brand new 500 benz next to us. I got out and opened the back door for my nephew so he didnt open it and hit the car then i told my brother to straighten up. Just as he got in to straighten up some young woman jumps in the drivers seat of the merc and says in an aggresive voice "maybe you should park park straight next time". I said "You can have everything in the world you want and your having a cry about how someone else parks there car". Then she took off all angry. Its like she thinks the world owes her something.

 

[jasonc]

FC Barcelona! Soccer will be the major sport in heaven

Soccer? Uhm no.I don't see any sport in heaven. I do wonder if the nature to compete will be removed from man in heaven

 

[Classik]

Maybe, maybe not. LOL

 

[Kenny_ms]

Soccer? Uhm no.I don't see any sport in heaven. I do wonder if the nature to compete will be removed from man in heaven

I doubt anything like that will be removed.

Satan had a lot of bad thoughts/natures (not that the the nature to compete is bad) and God apparently allowed that free will in Heaven too.

Isn't there some mention of games/sports and competing in the Bible?

I see no reason why there won't be sports in the next life, and the nature to compete isn't a bad thing, it's actually a God given nature that has done a lot of good things for man and not just in the sports area, but yes, as anything, it can get out of control.

I just don't think he's going to change a whole lot.... I'm reasonably sure our minds will go untouched. I think free will in humans is very important to God.....very.

 

[jasonc]

I doubt anything like that will be removed.

Satan had a lot of bad thoughts/natures (not that the the nature to compete is bad) and God apparently allowed that free will in Heaven too.

Isn't there some mention of games/sports and competing in the Bible?

I see no reason why there won't be sports in the next life, and the nature to compete isn't a bad thing, it's actually a God given nature that has done a lot of good things for man and not just in the sports area, but yes, as anything, it can get out of control.

I just don't think he's going to change a whole lot.... I'm reasonably sure our minds will go untouched. I think free will in humans is very important to God.....very.

egos. what does the bible say about egos. the nature of I have to be right on the bible is from what nature? it sure aint jesus.especially when the bible doesn't really say. its human nature to want to win.

 

[Kenny_ms]

egos. what does the bible say about egos. the nature of I have to be right on the bible is from what nature? it sure aint jesus.especially when the bible doesn't really say. its human nature to want to win.

God made human, God made human nature.

Ego's are good, they were given to us for a reason. Our hands are good, they were made for a reason but they can get out of hand, so to speak.

How bout anger, should that be taken away? Jesus did anger and didn't sin. Anger is designed to make a point, I mean REALLY make the point and I'd say Jesus did just that with it. Now it can get out of hand too but isn't that what this whole thing is all about when we think about it, how we take all that God gave us and keep it under control? Things like sex, ego, anger, selfishness, and so on.

I'm trying to think of a "good" use for ego...Lets say someone is acting like a horses you know what, it's probably a combination of ego and anger that makes you put them in their place....a good thing. However, picking up the baseball bat an putting it up side his head is probably a tad too much and an example of out of control ego/anger.

Feel free to disagree, those are just things that seem right to me, and I have given them some thought in the past for what that's worth.

 

[jasonc]

God made human, God made human nature.

Ego's are good, they were given to us for a reason. Our hands are good, they were made for a reason but they can get out of hand, so to speak.

How bout anger, should that be taken away? Jesus did anger and didn't sin. Anger is designed to make a point, I mean REALLY make the point and I'd say Jesus did just that with it. Now it can get out of hand too but isn't that what this whole thing is all about when we think about it, how we take all that God gave us and keep it under control? Things like sex, ego, anger, selfishness, and so on.

I'm trying to think of a "good" use for ego...Lets say someone is acting like a horses you know what, it's probably a combination of ego and anger that makes you put them in their place....a good thing. However, picking up the baseball bat an putting it up side his head is probably a tad too much and an example of out of control ego/anger.

Feel free to disagree, those are just things that seem right to me, and I have given them some thought in the past for what that's worth.

anger over what? what is the purpose of anger? what does god get angry about? sin? wrath, we after tis all will not have sin the new age?

ego for those that think they are better then others when they win? no matter how much we win and say we haven't an ego there is the reality of otherwise. I have said that and seen others say that and seen otherwise.

bragging in heaven? wrestle jesus and he looses? beat god in a sport?

 

[Kenny_ms]

I should comment on just what you said there. You are absolutely right with the "right on the bible" example of ego, we see it here so often, but that shows extreme passion for the Bible and God for one thing and that's good. Our ego may say, "don't you dare mess around with Gods word!" and that would be a good use of ego if you are right about Gods word but, at the same time we need that "reasoning" part of us to balance things out and listen to both sides and make sure, I for instance aren't the one unintentionally twisting Gods word. Again, it can get out of control and that's our job down here....to keep that from happening and something like I just mentioned should not end in a fist fight, but it could and of course that is ego gone wonky.

Those things given us by God, if controlled/balanced properly give us the ability to be just what God wants us to be because we have the choice to be what God wants us to be and do it of our own accord. If we didn't have the choice, it wouldn't be any good as far as God is concerned. You can't make your child love you, and if you could remove say their anger and ego, then you may think you made them seem to love you more but you didn't, you took away their choice and now have a rag doll that you can pretend really loves you, and that's no good.

I just have this thing about God messing with the free will in any way, shape or form. He knew exactly what he was doing when he gave it to us in it's entirety and I don't see him changing that by taking any part of it away. Could he? it's possible, but I don't think so.....

 

[jasonc]

I should comment on just what you said there. You are absolutely right with the "right on the bible" example of ego, we see it here so often, but that shows extreme passion for the Bible and God for one thing and that's good. Our ego may say, "don't you dare mess around with Gods word!" and that would be a good use of ego if you are right about Gods word but, at the same time we need that "reasoning" part of us to balance things out and listen to both sides and make sure, I for instance aren't the one unintentionally twisting Gods word. Again, it can get out of control and that's our job down here....to keep that from happening and something like I just mentioned
should not end in a fist fight, but it could and of course that is ego gone wonky.

Those things given us by God, if controlled/balanced properly give us the ability to be just what God wants us to be because we have the choice to be what God wants us to be and do it of our own accord. If we didn't have the choice, it wouldn't be any good as far as God is concerned. You can't make your child love you, and if you could remove say their anger and ego, then you may think you made them seem to love you more but you didn't, you took away their choice and now have a rag doll that you can pretend really loves you, and that's no good.

I just have this thing about God messing with the free will in any way, shape or form. He knew exactly what he was doing when he gave it to us in it's entirety and I don't see him changing that by taking any part of it away. Could he? it's possible, but I don't think so.....

I think its a restoration but perfect love has no need to prove itself.idk our views of competition is very different then what God has programmed into animals and what he intended.Im into combative arts.those originally were meant to kill.now are mostly sports.
free will we choose god after divine revelation.he forces none to serve him.