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Abraham, Saved by Belief Only?

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There usually ensues various debates about Abraham's believing God, and this only, being his salvation, or whether there were works that needed to accompany that.

We seldom in these "exchanges" go back and look at what Abraham actually believed, for which his belief was counted to him as righteousness.

Here is what Abraham believed, that was accounted to him as righteousness. This particular episode came to Abraham after his encounter with the captors of Lot, his defeat of capturing kings, and his blessings from Melchizedek, in Genesis 14:

18 And Melchizedek king of Salem brought forth bread and wine: and he was the priest of the most high God.
19 And he blessed him, and said, Blessed be Abram of the most high God, possessor of heaven and earth:
20 And blessed be the most high God, which hath delivered thine enemies into thy hand. And he gave him tithes of all.

Immediately after, Abraham refused to take so much as a shoelatchet from the king of Sodom, knowing that the deliverance of enemies into Abraham's (still Abram at this point) hand was from God, and not from any man, such as with this wicked king.

Hence followed this engagement of Abraham, with God.

Genesis 15
15 After these things the word of the Lord came unto Abram in a vision, saying, Fear not, Abram: I am thy shield, and thy exceeding great reward.
2 And Abram said, Lord God, what wilt thou give me, seeing I go childless, and the steward of my house is this Eliezer of Damascus?
3 And Abram said, Behold, to me thou hast given no seed: and, lo, one born in my house is mine heir.

[the son of a bond woman was his heir, at this point]

4 And, behold, the word of the Lord came unto him, saying, This shall not be thine heir; but he that shall come forth out of thine own bowels shall be thine heir.
5 And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be.

6 And he believed in the Lord; and he counted it to him for righteousness.

That belief was specific:

"he that shall come forth out of thine own bowels shall be thine heir."

Paul draws from this account, as an allegory, of the son of the flesh, who will not inherit, as opposed to the son of the promise, from Abram's own bowels, of one who would.

And Paul makes this a personal matter, here:

Galatians 4:
29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.

and, again, here, as a personal matter.

Galatians 5:17
For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

We can see many allegories of this matter with Abram. An old man of the flesh, his wife also, well past bearing age "in the flesh." This is significant that in our flesh, of our own, we will not produce the heir, the son of promise. It is beyond the working of the flesh.

We believe, that from our own planting in the natural, in the flesh, we too will be joined to The Son of Promise, in our New Body. We believe in this, just as did Abram/Abraham.
 
HalleluYAH said:
Always get you answer from the source, His Word.

Abraham was a doer and a believer.
Click to expand...

Abram himself produced a flesh son that would not inherit, and Paul uses that as an allegory of the conflict between the flesh and the spirit, which remain contrary to each others, in every believer, as duly noted prior, and here, again:

Galatians 5:17
For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

This is our present state, above. The allegory of Ishmael and Isaac is not about us and the other guy, but about us in our present natural flesh body and the Spirit, which are contrary to one another.

Philippians 3:21
Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

Abram believed that from his own bowels would come the Son of Promise. In the above, Paul shows us the same thing.
 
smaller said:
There usually ensues various debates about Abraham's believing God, and this only, being his salvation, or whether there were works that needed to accompany that.
Click to expand...
I wish all of us were more careful to distinguish between 'justification' and 'salvation' in these 'what saves' threads.

Justification is entirely on the basis of trusting God (Romans 4:5 NASB).

Salvation, on the other hand, is given on the Day of Wrath to those who have works as the evidence of that faith (James 2:18 NASB).

Now I will read the rest of the OP :lol

Justification is by faith, all by itself.
Salvation is granted to those who show they have that faith by what they do.
Dead faith--a 'faith' that can not be seen in what it does--can not save. For a person to be saved on the Day of Wrath, they must be, both, justified (made righteous) by faith, and justified (shown to be righteous) by works.
 
Jethro Bodine said:
I wish all of us were more careful to distinguish between 'justification' and 'salvation' in these 'what saves' threads.

Justification is entirely on the basis of trusting God (Romans 4:5 NASB).

Salvation, on the other hand, is given on the Day of Wrath to those who have works as the evidence of that faith (James 2:18 NASB).

Now I will read the rest of the OP :lol

Justification is by faith, all by itself.
Salvation is granted to those who show they have that faith by what they do.
Dead faith--a 'faith' that can not be seen in what it does--can not save. For a person to be saved on the Day of Wrath, they must be, both, justified (made righteous) by faith, and justified (shown to be righteous) by works.
Click to expand...

There will be zero justification found for the flesh of any believer:

Philippians 3:21
Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

Romans 3:20
Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

Galatians 2:16
Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
 
Jethro Bodine said:
I wish all of us were more careful to distinguish between 'justification' and 'salvation' in these 'what saves' threads.

Justification is entirely on the basis of trusting God (Romans 4:5 NASB).

Salvation, on the other hand, is given on the Day of Wrath to those who have works as the evidence of that faith (James 2:18 NASB).

Now I will read the rest of the OP :lol

Justification is by faith, all by itself.
Salvation is granted to those who show they have that faith by what they do.
Dead faith--a 'faith' that can not be seen in what it does--can not save. For a person to be saved on the Day of Wrath, they must be, both, justified (made righteous) by faith, and justified (shown to be righteous) by works.
Click to expand...

Well, this is a surprise. Jethro with some Revelation :)

Abraham was justified through works, by faith. The title of the OP is misleading as there is no scripture saying Abraham was Saved through Jesus, or saved. His faith by his works (Faith taking action for what it believed) was counted as righteousness.

Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
(Jas 2:21)

So, Abraham waited a far off for that better country made in the heavens, which he had to wait until Jesus showed up and preached to the spirits in prison. (Heb 11)

Mike.
 
Brother Mike said:
Well, this is a surprise. Jethro with some Revelation :)

Abraham was justified through works, by faith. The title of the OP is misleading as there is no scripture saying Abraham was Saved through Jesus, or saved. His faith by his works (Faith taking action for what it believed) was counted as righteousness.
Click to expand...

Whoa right there!

Genesis 20:
6 And God said unto him in a dream, Yea, I know that thou didst this in the integrity of thy heart; for I also withheld thee from sinning against me: therefore suffered I thee not to touch her.
7 Now therefore restore the man his wife; for he is a prophet, and he shall pray for thee, and thou shalt live: and if thou restore her not, know thou that thou shalt surely die, thou, and all that are thine.

And as such, this is WHO spoke through the prophets:

1 Peter 1:
10 Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:
11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

 
smaller said:
Whoa right there!

Genesis 20:
6 And God said unto him in a dream, Yea, I know that thou didst this in the integrity of thy heart; for I also withheld thee from sinning against me: therefore suffered I thee not to touch her.
7 Now therefore restore the man his wife; for he is a prophet, and he shall pray for thee, and thou shalt live: and if thou restore her not, know thou that thou shalt surely die, thou, and all that are thine.

And as such, this is WHO spoke through the prophets:

1 Peter 1:
10 Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:
11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.
Click to expand...

No idea what your point is here.
 
smaller said:
Abram himself produced a flesh son that would not inherit, and Paul uses that as an allegory of the conflict between the flesh and the spirit, which remain contrary to each others, in every believer
Click to expand...
Actually, it's an allegory of the man of works and the man of faith in a person. The only connection with sin is the fact that the man of works within us can not please God, no matter how hard he tries to gain the inheritance by what he does. In fact, the effort just makes sin all the more aroused and evident in us.


"22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the slave woman and the other by the free woman. 23 His son by the slave woman was born in the ordinary way; but his son by the free woman was born as the result of a promise." (Galatians 4:22-23 NASB)

The old covenant births a son in us by the expected and natural ways that mankind expects children of inheritance to be born--by human effort. We hear the Word of God about what he has promised and we work hard to lay hold of it. That's just how our natural minds think. But the New Covenant births a Son in us by the miracle of faith apart from our work of effort. This goes against everything we as humans understand and expect.


"24 These things may be taken figuratively, for the women represent two covenants. One covenant is from Mount Sinai and bears children who are to be slaves: This is Hagar." (Galatians 4:24 NASB)

Interaction (intercourse) with the old covenant (Hagar) bears a child that continues in the slavery of the sin nature. That covenant has no power to liberate mankind from it's bondage to decay and produce a free child of the kingdom. But the child born of the New Covenant is not in slavery to the sin nature. He is the Son that is born free and pleases the Father and inherits the kingdom, even though he is born second, against all natural expectation of the son born first being in line for the inheritance.

Every believer, when they receive the gospel, begins this struggle inside of them between the son born of natural effort, who is inclined to work for the inheritance, and the son born of the Spirit, who receives the inheritance by way of promise, not work. That struggle ended for me way back in the eighties. That is when the prophecy that "the older will serve the younger" was fulfilled in me (Genesis 25:23 NASB). The man of works inside of me, born as a result of the Word of God, was subdued and came into submission to the man also born in me by the Word of God, but born of faith instead.
 
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Jethro Bodine said:
That struggle ended for me way back in the eighties.
Click to expand...

Unlikely. The contrariness between the flesh and the Spirit, ends when we are changed:

Philippians 3:21
Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

If you show up on my doorstep as a Being of Light, and absorb me, then we'll both believe each others. In the meantime, I'll observe the flesh for what it is. Regardless of any claims to the contrary.
 
smaller said:
Unlikely. The contrariness between the flesh and the Spirit, ends when we are changed:

Philippians 3:21
Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

If you show up on my doorstep as a Being of Light, and absorb me, then we'll both believe each others. In the meantime, I'll observe the flesh for what it is. Regardless of any claims to the contrary.
Click to expand...
You're not listening, again.

The analogy is Hagar and her son represent man's natural inclination to work for the inheritance. That struggle ended in me waaaaay back when big hair and techno-pop music were all the scene. The analogy only has to do with the sin nature insofar as the person inside of us who tries to lay hold of the inheritance by works will always be a slave to the sin nature. But you have the analogy being Hagar and Ishmael represent the sin nature itself. That interpretation is not consistent with the fact that the sin nature was with us all along, not born after we heard the Word of God about a son. And of course, your interpretation is not in line with what Paul himself says it is.
 
Jethro Bodine said:
You're not listening, again.

The analogy is Hagar and her son represent man's natural inclination to work for the inheritance. That struggle ended in me waaaaay back when big hair and techno-pop music were all the scene. The analogy only has to do with the sin nature insofar as the person inside of us who tries to lay hold of the inheritance by works will always be a slave to the sin nature.
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We are all planted in flesh. This is the reality of the allegory:

Romans 7:18
For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

But you have the analogy being Hagar and Ishmael represent the sin nature itself. That interpretation is not consistent with the fact that the sin nature was with us all along, not born after we heard the Word of God about a son. And of course, your interpretation is not in line with what Paul himself says it is.
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Said it once and a thousand times. There is no work that will justify, or is able to justify the flesh, because it is subject to the lusts and temptations of the tempter regardless of any work that is performed.
 
If anyone thinks they hear Abraham, trying to justify himself before God, I'd say their eyes and ears are a little skewered:

Genesis 18:27
And Abraham answered and said, Behold now, I have taken upon me to speak unto the Lord, which am but dust and ashes:

I am very fond of Abraham. He wasn't a blow hole about his works.
 
smaller said:
We are all planted in flesh. This is the reality of the allegory:

Romans 7:18
For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.



Said it once and a thousand times. There is no work that will justify, or is able to justify the flesh, because it is subject to the lusts and temptations of the tempter regardless of any work that is performed.
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Why are you contradicting what the Bible plainly says? This is not even up for honest debate.

Here (again) is what Paul himself said the allegory of the two sons born, and their birth order, means:

"22 For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the slave woman and the other by the free woman.
23 His son by the slave woman was born in the ordinary way; but his son by the free woman was born as the result of a promise.
24 These things may be taken figuratively, for the women represent two covenants. One covenant is from Mount Sinai and bears children who are to be slaves: This is Hagar." (Galatians 4:22-24 NIV)

The son born first is the son conceived when we hear the gospel and set about, like Abraham, to fulfill the word of God's blessing through our own efforts. He is the son born in the way of the first covenant--the man of works. He can not, and will not inherit the blessing, because he remains a slave to sin. He, like Hagar and Ishmael, must be sent away.

The son born second is the Son conceived when we hear the gospel and fulfill the word of God's blessing through our faith in the surety of God's Word. He is the son born in the way of the New Covenant--the man of faith. He can, and will inherit the blessing, because he is free.

Are you still going to argue that the son born first in Paul's allegory in response to God's word (Ishmael) is our sin nature? Does the first covenant, the way of works, birth the sin nature in us? No, or course not. It existed before any knowledge of the gospel came. Does the first covenant way of relating to God's word of blessing birth a man of fleshly effort inside of us, who thinks he can gain the inheritance by doing work? Yes! That's what the allegory is ALL about.
 
I appreciate Abram, even more, asking God what is the reward for belief, for faith:
Jethro Bodine said:
Which definition of 'justified' are you referring to? The definition Paul uses, or the definition James uses?:

"21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar?" (James 2:21 NASB)
.
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James also said that God tempts no man,

James 1:13
Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:

yet we find Abraham, tempted by God:

Genesis 22
22 And it came to pass after these things, that God did tempt Abraham, and said unto him, Abraham: and he said, Behold, here I am.

Abraham knew long before he bound Isaac to the altar, that God Himself would provide the sacrifice, and that was a belief, shown prior, below:

3 And Abraham rose up early in the morning, and saddled his ass, and took two of his young men with him, and Isaac his son, and clave the wood for the burnt offering, and rose up, and went unto the place of which God had told him.
4 Then on the third day Abraham lifted up his eyes, and saw the place afar off.
5 And Abraham said unto his young men, Abide ye here with the ass; and I and the lad will go yonder and worship, and come again to you.
6 And Abraham took the wood of the burnt offering, and laid it upon Isaac his son; and he took the fire in his hand, and a knife; and they went both of them together.

7 And Isaac spake unto Abraham his father, and said, My father: and he said, Here am I, my son. And he said, Behold the fire and the wood: but where is the lamb for a burnt offering?

8 And Abraham said, My son, God will provide himself a lamb for a burnt offering: so they went both of them together.
 
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