Abraham, Saved by Belief Only?

[dadof10]

You have it exactly reversed.

Justification is the one time event that happens the instant we believe (Romans 10:10 NASB).
Salvation begins from that moment forward and is completed on the Day of Wrath when we are delivered (saved) from the wrath of God against all of mankind (1 Thessalonians 1:10 NASB).

So, there can be justified people in Hell? If a person can lose salvation, yet not lose justification, that is a possibility.

 

[dadof10]

Well, you'd have a point if Paul compared faith with other works besides works of the law in his teaching on what can and can not justify a person.

That's quite specific criteria. The first heresy within the early Church was how to treat Gentile converts. Do they have to obey Jewish ceremonial law (most notably circumcision), as the apostles did, or would that be an "undue burden" (Acts 15:28) on them? Does keeping the Law save? This is what Paul is reacting to. He has no need to contrast "good deeds" and "works of the law" simply because no one was arguing that good deeds (baptism, charity, etc.) didn't save.

As it is, he contrasts works of the law with believing God. See the point?

Yes, I do. Works of the law. We agree.

Believing what God said has nothing to do with works of any kind, in or out of the law.

This is where you go too far. You will believe that "works" is limited to "works of the law" and not "works of any kind" only if Paul contrasts the two, yet Paul NEVER contrasting faith and good deeds means nothing. Seems kinda selective to me.

It stands alone as that which can make a person legally righteous (justified) before God.

"5 But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness" (Romans 4:5 NASB)

The only reason it "stands alone" is if "work" here means "everything else". This is not a given, it has to be proved.

His faith, his believing, is what was credited as righteousness. Not what he did.

Well, I would say that his faith is definitely "credited to him as righteousness", but not his faith alone and his righteousness can lost through disobedience. To me, the "what he did" in your sentence is more accurately interpreted "the works of the law he kept". Again, you are unnecessarily projecting "everything done" onto "works".

The only justification that what he did did accomplish was justify him in regard to how James uses the word--to SHOW one to be righteous. That's not the same as being MADE righteous, the way Paul uses the word. Justified really does have at least two very distinct definitions and the context of James' and Paul's letters indicate which definition they are teaching about. To say they are using the exact same definition is to put them in direct contradiction to each other.

I agree, if "works" means the same thing in both Paul's letters and James'. I just think it's far more reasonable and Biblically sound to interpret "works" in Paul as "works of the law" and "works" in James as "good deeds". The context obviously bears out both of these interpretations and as an added bonus, no contradiction.

 

[dadof10]

How you and I hear matters of baptism, charity, will obviously vary as we see differently, that being, I see no condemnation possible to any believer and you hold those conveyances to condemn believers.

John 5:24
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

The first things christian religious sectarianism does is to potentially condemn these, in their rituals for not doing so. And in this they are fatally wrong, and have done what Jesus said will not happen.

Those who believe, their iniquites are forgiven, their sins are covered, and these have eternal life by the attribution of Christ and our faith that HE IS ABLE to perform, what He has promised.

We await the final "change" out of our vile body. That body that people seek to justify by works is, as a matter of fact, vile regardless of any works.

Never mind, thanks.

 

[JLB]

But he does not teach that the obedience is the actual part that makes one legally righteous.

Obedience is the only part that makes one legally righteous.

The only other option would be disobedience.

Do you believe those who disobey the Gospel are righteous?

The only people who are righteous are obedient people.

Those who obey the Gospel, are righteous.

Those who disobey the Gospel are not.

Without turning to God, and confessing Jesus as Lord, their is no salvation.

that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
Romans 10:9

For "whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved." Romans 10:13

This is a reference to YHWH the Lord God Almighty. Joel 2:32

16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, "Lord, who has believed our report?"
Romans 10:16

21 But to Israel he says: "All day long I have stretched out My hands To a disobedient and contrary people."
Romans 10:21



JLB

 

[JLB]

They don't believe unto justification. How do we know? They do not have works to validate their 'faith' as the faith that makes a person legally righteous in God's sight. Even if they did, their works would not be what makes them righteous. Believing does that all by itself. Works would only show them to have the righteousness that comes by believing apart from works (Romans 4:6 NASB). This is James' point. Works are necessary for salvation because the faith that justifies apart from works can not be separated from the works that faith produces.

Believing does that all by itself.

Believing all by itself, is what demons have.

That's the point James Makes.

17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
18 But someone will say, "You have faith, and I have works." Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.
19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe--and tremble!
James 2:17-19

You are teaching directly against the scriptures.


Paul teaches the same exact principle -

that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
Romans 10:9

James teaches faith with obedience...

Paul teaches believing with obedience... confess and believe = Salvation

Believe all by itself = what demons have... Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead. Even the demons believe--and tremble!

By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to the place which he would receive as an inheritance. And he went out, not knowing where he was going. Hebrews 11:8

Abraham obeyed God's Voice, and became an example to those who walk in the obedience of faith.

But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith: Romans 16:26

...according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:

A commandment is something you either obey or you disobey!

The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance. 2 Peter 3:9


Those who don't obey the command to repent will perish.

Those who believe the command to repent, obey the command to repent.


JLB

 

[Corn Pop]

(Post removed. A&T guidelines state in part: "Subsequent responses either opposing or adding additional information should include references to specific supportive scripture relevant to the thread and offer explanation of the member's understanding of how that scripture applies." Obadiah.)

 

[Corn Pop]

(Post removed. A&T guidelines state in part: "Subsequent responses either opposing or adding additional information should include references to specific supportive scripture relevant to the thread and offer explanation of the member's understanding of how that scripture applies." Obadiah.)

 

[JLB]

He believed God and it was credited to him as righteous. The end.

Anyone who believes and trusts the true God it is credited to them as righteous.

Jesus believed and trusted his Father would raise him from the dead. The ultimate trust of all belief in God, and it was credited to him as righteous.

What is it that Abraham believed?

Abraham was standing in the very land that God sent him to as the requirement for making Abraham a great nation.

Abraham obeyed God when God stated the requirements for obtaining the promise.

Now the Lord had said to Abram:

“Get out of your country,
From your family
And from your father’s house,
To a land that I will show you.
I will make you a great nation;
Genesis 12:1

I will make you a great nation certainly means many offspring.

And I will make your descendants multiply as the stars of heaven; I will give to your descendants all these lands; and in your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed; 5 because Abraham obeyed My voice and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes, and My laws.”
Genesis 26:4-5

Taking one verse out of context and building an entire theology on it is how false doctrines get stated.

The end.


JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Believing all by itself, is what demons have.

That's the point James Makes.

17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
18 But someone will say, "You have faith, and I have works." Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.
19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe--and tremble!
James 2:17-19

You are teaching directly against the scriptures.


Paul teaches the same exact principle -

that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
Romans 10:9

James teaches faith with obedience...

Paul teaches believing with obedience... confess and believe = Salvation

Believe all by itself = what demons have... Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead. Even the demons believe--and tremble!

By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to the place which he would receive as an inheritance. And he went out, not knowing where he was going. Hebrews 11:8

Abraham obeyed God's Voice, and became an example to those who walk in the obedience of faith.

But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith: Romans 16:26

...according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:

A commandment is something you either obey or you disobey!

The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance. 2 Peter 3:9


Those who don't obey the command to repent will perish.

Those who believe the command to repent, obey the command to repent.


JLB

I see you are still not understanding (Edited, ToS 2.4, Obadiah) between justification and salvation.

"10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness (justification), and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation." (Romans 10:10 NASB)

You'll never understand my position until you make the distinction (Edited, ToS 2.4, Obadiah) between the two.

 

[Corn Pop]

(Post removed. A&T guidelines state in part: "Subsequent responses either opposing or adding additional information should include references to specific supportive scripture relevant to the thread and offer explanation of the member's understanding of how that scripture applies." Obadiah.)

 

[JLB]

(Post removed, response to a deleted post. Obadiah)

 

[smaller]

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[Jethro Bodine]

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[dadof10]

(Post removed, response to a deleted post. Obadiah)

 

[llama]

http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Believer's Corner/Doctrines/faith_and_works.htm I'll copy and paste here
"Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only." —James 2:24

No! Many people misunderstand the words of James the Apostle because they don't know their Bible well. I don't think I've received even one letter of debate from a Catholic who didn't bring up the words of James, "Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works" (James 2:18). James goes on to say in verse 24, "Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only." At first glance, it sure does seem like the Bible is requiring works for salvation; BUT, as you will see, nothing could be further from the TRUTH!

Carefully notice James 2:21, "Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?" This event took place in Genesis 22:8-10. Now notice Genesis 15:6, "And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness." The event which took place in Genesis 15:6 was different from the event which took place in Genesis 22:8-10. We see in the New Testament that Paul spoke of the ROOT of Abraham's faith; BUT, James spoke of the FRUIT of Abraham's faith. We read in Romans 4:3, "For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness." This occurred in Genesis 15:6, which is when Abraham was born again. Paul said in Romans 5:1, "Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ." Paul doesn't mention works. Romans 4:5 declares, "But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness." Yet, James declares in James 2:21, "Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?" This event took place years later, when Isaac had grown at least old enough to speak clearly to his father (Genesis 22:7). James is simply saying that if a person is genuinely saved by faith, then there should be some FRUIT (good works) in that person's life to show it. BUT, James was NOT teaching that works are necessary to be saved--they aren't! Abraham was saved by faith ALONE! Titus 3:5 clearly states, "Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us..."

Also, notice carefully James' words, "...shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works"(James 2:18). With God we are justified by FAITH; BUT with men we are justified by WORKS. The reason is simply because mankind cannot see out heart; but God can. We read in 1st Samuel 16:7, "...for the LORD seeth not as man seeth; for man looketh on the outward appearance, but the LORD looketh on the heart." James said, "shew me" your faith and I'll "shew you" my faith. Every believer possessing the Holy Spirit of God should be a new creature in the Lord, "Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new." This is what James was looking for.

So don't let any Catholic fool you into believing that you must have good works to go to Heaven, you don't. Looking at the Old Testament by itself, I would never have any reason to think that Lot was a Christian. Yet, we read in 2nd Peter 2:6-7, "And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly; And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked." Did you read that ... "just Lot"? James was simply teaching that there should be some good works in a Christian's life to back up his testimony. However, this doesn't mean conclusively that a professed Christian without any good works is not saved. We certainly have a right to question their salvation; BUT, we cannot say for certain because we cannot see their heart. King David killed an innocent man (Uriah) to hide an unwanted pregnancy from an affair with the man's wife (Bathsheba). Would you have thought David was a Christian at that moment? Of course not! But David was a Christian, who had sinned horribly.

The Book of James should be a challenge to every believer to "Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven" (Matthew 5:16). And the Book of Romans should be a challenge to every believer to be aggressive in winning lost souls to Christ, "For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth..." Most importantly is that we NOT confuse the ROOT of our faith, with the FRUIT of our faith--because ADDING works to faith is a sure road to Hell.

"But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness." —Romans 4:5

 

[dadof10]

http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Believer's Corner/Doctrines/faith_and_works.htm I'll copy and paste here
"Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only." —James 2:24

No! Many people misunderstand the words of James the Apostle because they don't know their Bible well. I don't think I've received even one letter of debate from a Catholic who didn't bring up the words of James, "Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works" (James 2:18). James goes on to say in verse 24, "Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only." At first glance, it sure does seem like the Bible is requiring works for salvation; BUT, as you will see, nothing could be further from the TRUTH!

Carefully notice James 2:21, "Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?" This event took place in Genesis 22:8-10. Now notice Genesis 15:6, "And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness." The event which took place in Genesis 15:6 was different from the event which took place in Genesis 22:8-10. We see in the New Testament that Paul spoke of the ROOT of Abraham's faith; BUT, James spoke of the FRUIT of Abraham's faith. We read in Romans 4:3, "For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness." This occurred in Genesis 15:6, which is when Abraham was born again. Paul said in Romans 5:1, "Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ." Paul doesn't mention works. Romans 4:5 declares, "But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness." Yet, James declares in James 2:21, "Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?" This event took place years later, when Isaac had grown at least old enough to speak clearly to his father (Genesis 22:7). James is simply saying that if a person is genuinely saved by faith, then there should be some FRUIT (good works) in that person's life to show it. BUT, James was NOT teaching that works are necessary to be saved--they aren't! Abraham was saved by faith ALONE! Titus 3:5 clearly states, "Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us..."

Also, notice carefully James' words, "...shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works"(James 2:18). With God we are justified by FAITH; BUT with men we are justified by WORKS. The reason is simply because mankind cannot see out heart; but God can. We read in 1st Samuel 16:7, "...for the LORD seeth not as man seeth; for man looketh on the outward appearance, but the LORD looketh on the heart." James said, "shew me" your faith and I'll "shew you" my faith. Every believer possessing the Holy Spirit of God should be a new creature in the Lord, "Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new." This is what James was looking for.

So don't let any Catholic fool you into believing that you must have good works to go to Heaven, you don't. Looking at the Old Testament by itself, I would never have any reason to think that Lot was a Christian. Yet, we read in 2nd Peter 2:6-7, "And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly; And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked." Did you read that ... "just Lot"? James was simply teaching that there should be some good works in a Christian's life to back up his testimony. However, this doesn't mean conclusively that a professed Christian without any good works is not saved. We certainly have a right to question their salvation; BUT, we cannot say for certain because we cannot see their heart. King David killed an innocent man (Uriah) to hide an unwanted pregnancy from an affair with the man's wife (Bathsheba). Would you have thought David was a Christian at that moment? Of course not! But David was a Christian, who had sinned horribly.

The Book of James should be a challenge to every believer to "Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven" (Matthew 5:16). And the Book of Romans should be a challenge to every believer to be aggressive in winning lost souls to Christ, "For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth..." Most importantly is that we NOT confuse the ROOT of our faith, with the FRUIT of our faith--because ADDING works to faith is a sure road to Hell.

"But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness." —Romans 4:5

If Abraham was "born again" in Gen. 15, as your article says, how is it that he showed obedient faith ("saving faith") in Gen. 12? Was he born again again?
"By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to a place which he was to receive as an inheritance; and he went out, not knowing where he was to go." (Heb 11:8 RSV)

 

[Drew]

"But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness." —Romans 4:5

I know that some will be saying "oh no, not again", but I have to ask: Do you agree with this statement from Paul?

6God “will repay each person according to what they have done.”7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. [Romans 2:6-7]

 

[llama]

If by faith he went out then praise God cause I believe the same way Abraham believes that it's faith only that saves. I mean the Bible never talks about righteousness being imputed unto us by God telling us to go some place and we go there. It says Jesus sinless life washes away all our sins, not our obedience to God, (Edited, ToS 2.6. You do not have the right to dictate that other members use your preferred translation of scripture and you certainly have no authority to tell us which translation God prefers! Obadiah.) If you are saved by works, mind telling us what good work you did to get to heaven by works, so we can be saved too?

 

[llama]

I know that some will be saying "oh no, not again", but I have to ask: Do you agree with this statement from Paul?

6God “will repay each person according to what they have done.”7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. [Romans 2:6-7]

http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/Believer's Corner/Doctrines/romans_213.htm once again, I'll copy and paste:
Tragically, the author of the preceding statement is woefully ignorant of the Scriptures. Romans 2:7 says, “To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life.” Taken by itself, Romans 2:7 would seem to imply that good works are required for salvation. An even more powerful Scripture that would seem to support this same notion is found in Romans 2:13, “For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.” Now please careful read Romans 3:20, “Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.” We have a 100% direct contradiction here. Indeed, this has confused many people who are ignorant of the Scriptures, including the author of the evangelicaloutreach.org website.

So what is the answer? Which is it... are we justified by obeying the works of the Law or not? Romans 2:13 says, YES. Romans 3:20 says, NO. Why the contradiction? What's going on here?

The answer is quite simple. There were a group of Jews in Paul's time who believed that they could be saved by keeping the Law. This is abundantly clear from Romans 2:17, “Behold, thou art called a Jew, and restest in the law, and makest thy boast of God.” Those Jews were RESTING, or relying upon the keeping of God's Law, to save them. The Apostle Paul goes on, from Romans 2:18 to Romans 3:19, to inform the Jews that they hadn't done a very good job of keeping the Law and were a bunch of hypocrites! He concludes his indictment against them with Romans 3:20, “THEREFORE by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.”

Just as the author of evangelicaloutreach.org errantly wrestles the Scriptures, so also did the Jews foolishly think that salvation requires our own self-righteousness. Paul told the Jews in Romans 2:7-13 that if they were to be justified by the Law, then they would have to KEEP IT 100%; but none of them had, which is plainly stated in Romans 3:12, “They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.” The Jews were resting in a false hope, thinking that they had kept the Law to God's satisfaction; but Paul clearly points out that they had utterly failed to do so. It is impossible for any man or woman to keep God's Law perfectly. Romans 3:23, “For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God.” Paul makes clear that the PURPOSE of God's Law is to show men their sinful condition, “...for by the law is the knowledge of sin” (Romans 3:20b).

The Apostle Paul reiterates the purpose of God's Law in Romans 7:13, “Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.” The Law shows mankind his inability to please God in his own self-righteousness. No one can keep the whole Law of God, no one. We all fall short of pleasing God. Mankind tried to keep God's Law and utterly failed. God's Law had served its purpose in showing men their sinful condition and; thus, need for a Savior. God DIDN'T give us the Law to merit or work our way into Heaven. This is what many people foolishly believe. That is self-righteousness. Persisting to do good is NOT a part of salvation as the author of evangelicaloutreach.org teaches.

There is NO contradiction in the Scriptures. Salvation is by God's grace through faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. Whether or not a person is willing to change their sinful habits has nothing to do with being saved. A changed life is the FRUIT of genuine repentance and not a part of the ROOT of saving-faith. Salvation is receiving; not giving. Eternal life is God's gift to fallen humanity (Romans 5:15; 6:23).

Certainly, “If any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new” (2nd Corinthians 5:17); however, the spiritual regeneration which has taken place (i.e., the indwelling of the Spirit of Christ) doesn't mean that immediate reformation will follow. Growth in grace takes time. 1st Peter 2:2 teaches this Biblical truth, “As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby.” Expecting a babe in Christ to forsake their sinful habits is like expecting a baby to run a marathon. I am not approving of sin or saying it's acceptable for a believer to continue living in sin, not at all; I am simply saying that salvation has absolutely NOTHING to do with cleaning up one's life. The changed lifecomes AFTER a person is saved, as a result of being saved; and not as a requirement to be saved. That's the big difference that so many people don't understand. Salvation is obtained solely by Christ's righteousness, and not by our own self-righteousness or human effort in any way.

John 6:29, “Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on Him whom he hath sent.” The only work which God requires from a lost sinner to be saved is that he or she BELIEVE ON THE LORD JESUS CHRIST.

 

[dadof10]

If by faith he went out then praise God cause I believe the same way Abraham believes that it's faith only that saves. I mean the Bible never talks about righteousness being imputed unto us by God telling us to go some place and we go there. It says Jesus sinless life washes away all our sins, not our obedience to God, (Edited, ToS 2.6. You do not have the right to dictate that other members use your preferred translation of scripture and you certainly have no authority to tell us which translation God prefers! Obadiah.) If you are saved by works, mind telling us what good work you did to get to heaven by works, so we can be saved too?

I think you're missing the point. Abraham had obedient (saving) faith in Gen. 12. The article you posted said Abraham was "born again" in Gen. 15. Obedient faith saves, correct? Was he "born again" twice? Was he "saved" twice?