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Bible Study Absent from the body...have a question

E

Eve777

Guest
I don't believe this scripture is saying that to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord..I think we sleep just like everyone else until he returns....and there are scriptures to back this up...why are we taught that our spirit goes to God, the minute we die. What do you think?


6. Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
7. (For we walk by faith, not by sight:)
8. We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
 
Absolutely correct!

"For I am hard-pressed from both directions, having the desire to depart and be with Christ, for that is very much better; yet to remain on in the flesh is more necessary for your sake.†--- Phillipians 1:23-24 NAS / 2Timothy 4:6-8.

Notice, Paul did not say where he would go or when he would be with Christ.

There is not one word mentioning heaven here, nor is there one word saying that he would be with Christ immediately.


In 2Timothy 4:6-8 Paul wrote: "For I am now ready to be offered, and the time of my departure is at hand. I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith: Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing."

Paul explains what he meant by being with Christ. He does not receive his reward immediately at death. But there is laid up a crown of righteousness which the Lord shall give him at that day. What day? At Christ's appearing----His second coming.

In Isaiah 40:10 we notice this same day mentioned: "Behold, the Lord God will come….behold, his reward is with him…." See also Revelation 22: 12.


To die is gain! In death, there is no knowledge of passing time (Eccl. 9: 5,6,10; Ps. 146: 4). THE NEXT MOMENT IS THE RESURRECTION!
 
I believe there is a set aside time for rewards, but I also believe that "to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord".
Jesus told the thief that "today you will be with me in paradise".
In Phil. 1:23-24, Paul states that he desired to depart to be with Christ, which is far better. Now, Christ is in heaven, He's not in the ground.
To say you will be asleep sounds rediculous to me.
 
Jesus told the thief that "today you will be with me in paradise".

The translators of the English Bible put the comma where they thought it should go. There were no commas in the original language.

******************************

Christ told one of the thieves crucified with Him that he would be in paradise (Luke 23:43).

Since many believe in continued consciousness after death, they placed the comma before "today".

"Today" was the day Christ made the promise, not the day they would be in paradise.

Jesus emphasized "today" because the thief repented and believed in Jesus that day. The previous day he was lost.

Moses uses the word "today" similarly in Deuteronomy 30:16-18. In verse 16, he commands them "today" to follow the Lord. He was not saying they only had to follow the Lord that day. Just as Moses gave the command that day, Jesus gave the promise that day.


Then Moses says, "But if your heart turns away so that you do not hear, and are drawn away, and worship other gods and serve them, I announce to you today that you shall surely perish . . ." (Dt. 30: 17-18).

They did not perish that day. In fact, they did not even perish the first day they turned away, because of God's patience and mercy.
 
I'm still far from convinced that we sleep when we die,
Too many scriptures say otherwise.
You guys can sleep if you want but i'm going to paradise!! :angel:
 
I'm still far from convinced that we sleep when we die,
Too many scriptures say otherwise.

1 Thess. 4:13 -- "........them which are asleep........."

1 Thess. 4:14 -- ".......them also which sleep in Jesus......"

1 Thess 4:15 -- ".....we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the LORD shall not precede them which are asleep."

1 Thess 4:16 -- ".....the dead [asleep] in Christ shall rise first:"

1 Corinthians 15: 51-52 -- "Behold I show you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,"


1 Corinthians 15: 18 -- "....fallen asleep in Christ....."

1 Corinthians 15: 20 -- "But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the first fruits of them that slept."



Daniel 12:2 --- "And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall AWAKE, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt."
 
Show us the scriptures that say to be absent from the body is to be with the Lord, please. I am very interested in this subject.
 
HI there!


Any time that the Bible speaks of "sleep"... it is of the physical body and not of the soul.


And for destiny....

Those who die today... are not going to Paradise, which is a part of she'ol, but those dying today, their souls go to heaven to be ever-present with the Lord.

why are we taught that our spirit goes to God, the minute we die. What do you think


I believe the Bible tells us that the spirit is the breath of life that is given by God and which returns to God at the death of our physical body. The spirit of man is separate from the soul of man.


There is an interesting instruction concerning the timeframe from earth to heaven. In the book of Daniel, Chapter 9, which is posted below, we are told that at the beginning of the prayer, the angel, Gabriel, was dispatched with the answered prayer to Daniel.... and that, by traveling "being caused to fly swiftly", Gabriel was able to deliver the answer to the prayer by the time that Daniel was through praying.

When that prayer is translated into Hebrew, and when it is recited out loud, it takes about three minutes time... so in theory, we can think that heaven is a few minutes travel time away.


Absent from the body may not mean present with the Lord, but it certainly means to be on the way to be in the presence of the Lord.

~serapha~



4 And I prayed unto the LORD my God, and made my confession, and said, O Lord, the great and dreadful God, keeping the covenant and mercy to them that love him, and to them that keep his commandments;
5 We have sinned, and have committed iniquity, and have done wickedly, and have rebelled, even by departing from thy precepts and from thy judgments:
6 Neither have we hearkened unto thy servants the prophets, which spake in thy name to our kings, our princes, and our fathers, and to all the people of the land.
7 O Lord, righteousness belongeth unto thee, but unto us confusion of faces, as at this day; to the men of Judah, and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, and unto all Israel, that are near, and that are far off, through all the countries whither thou hast driven them, because of their trespass that they have trespassed against thee.
8 O Lord, to us belongeth confusion of face, to our kings, to our princes, and to our fathers, because we have sinned against thee.
9 To the Lord our God belong mercies and forgivenesses, though we have rebelled against him;
10 Neither have we obeyed the voice of the LORD our God, to walk in his laws, which he set before us by his servants the prophets.
11 Yea, all Israel have transgressed thy law, even by departing, that they might not obey thy voice; therefore the curse is poured upon us, and the oath that is written in the law of Moses the servant of God, because we have sinned against him.
12 And he hath confirmed his words, which he spake against us, and against our judges that judged us, by bringing upon us a great evil: for under the whole heaven hath not been done as hath been done upon Jerusalem.
13 As it is written in the law of Moses, all this evil is come upon us: yet made we not our prayer before the LORD our God, that we might turn from our iniquities, and understand thy truth.
14 Therefore hath the LORD watched upon the evil, and brought it upon us: for the LORD our God is righteous in all his works which he doeth: for we obeyed not his voice.
15 And now, O Lord our God, that hast brought thy people forth out of the land of Egypt with a mighty hand, and hast gotten thee renown, as at this day; we have sinned, we have done wickedly.
16 O Lord, according to all thy righteousness, I beseech thee, let thine anger and thy fury be turned away from thy city Jerusalem, thy holy mountain: because for our sins, and for the iniquities of our fathers, Jerusalem and thy people are become a reproach to all that are about us.
17 Now therefore, O our God, hear the prayer of thy servant, and his supplications, and cause thy face to shine upon thy sanctuary that is desolate, for the Lord's sake.
18 O my God, incline thine ear, and hear; open thine eyes, and behold our desolations, and the city which is called by thy name: for we do not present our supplications before thee for our righteousnesses, but for thy great mercies.
19 O Lord, hear; O Lord, forgive; O Lord, hearken and do; defer not, for thine own sake, O my God: for thy city and thy people are called by thy name.

20 And whiles I was speaking, and praying, and confessing my sin and the sin of my people Israel, and presenting my supplication before the LORD my God for the holy mountain of my God;
21 Yea, whiles I was speaking in prayer, even the man Gabriel, whom I had seen in the vision at the beginning, , touched me about the time of the evening oblation.
22 And he informed me, and talked with me, and said, O Daniel, I am now come forth to give thee skill and understanding.
23 At the beginning of thy supplications the commandment came forth, and I am come to shew thee; for thou art greatly beloved: therefore understand the matter, and consider the vision....
 
Eve777 said:
Show us the scriptures that say to be absent from the body is to be with the Lord, please. I am very interested in this subject.

HI there!

John Gill's Exposition of the Bible

2 Corinthians 5:8

We are confident, I say, and willing rather…

We are cheerful in our present state, being assured of future happiness; though we choose rather

to be absent from the body;
that is, to die, to depart out of this world. The interval between death, and the resurrection, is a state of absence from the body, during which time the soul is disembodied, and exists in a separate state; not in a state of inactivity and sleep, for that would not be desirable, but of happiness and glory, enjoying the presence of God, and praising of him, believing and waiting for the resurrection of the body, when both will be united together again; and after that there will be no more absence, neither from the body, nor from the Lord:

and to be present with the Lord.

This was promised to Christ in the everlasting covenant, that all his spiritual seed and offspring should be with him. This he expected; it was the joy of this which was set before him, that carried him through his sufferings and death with so much cheerfulness; this is the sum of his prayers and intercession, and what all his preparations in heaven are on the account of. It is this which supports and comforts the saints under all their sorrows here, and which makes them meet death with pleasure, which otherwise is formidable and disagreeable to nature; and even desirous of parting with life, to be with Christ, which is far better.
 
I dont see anything wrong with referring to heaven as paradise...And I dont see where a physical body that is put in the grave is "asleep" either.
It decays, it doesn't "sleep".
 
Eve777 said:
I don't believe this scripture is saying that to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord..I think we sleep just like everyone else until he returns....and there are scriptures to back this up...why are we taught that our spirit goes to God, the minute we die. What do you think?...
Good question and one that haunts these forums every time it is brought up. It seems as though Luke 23:43 is always mentioned when discussing 2 Corinthians 5:8. Must be something to that, huh?

destiny said:
I dont see anything wrong with referring to heaven as paradise...
What we should be asking ourselves is "Where did Jesus go the day He died?" Is this the same 'paradise' spoken of in the OT times? Or is this the Hevenly paradise we Christians often refer to when reading Luke 23:43? Or were Jesus and the thief in two places at the same time?

lol, these questions have bugged me for years now. For sure the 'right' answers WILL affect someone's doctrine. :-?
 
For sure the 'right' answers WILL affect someone's doctrine.
And just who has the right answer? :wink:
Also this isn't one of those issues that will send you to "hell"(oops theres another controversy) so I could care less.....(But I'll stick to my own interpretation, others confuse me) :)
 
destiny said:
For sure the 'right' answers WILL affect someone's doctrine.
And just who has the right answer? :wink:
Also this isn't one of those issues that will send you to "hell"(oops theres another controversy) so I could care less.....(But I'll stick to my own interpretation, others confuse me) :)
Hahaha...that's why I typed 'right' and not just right. :wink:
 
serapha

Any time that the Bible speaks of "sleep"... it is of the physical body and not of the soul.

Paul talks about "they" or "them" being in their grave asleep. Paul does not say their "soul" is asleep. Paul says "they" are asleep in Jesus.


SOULS -- in the BIBLE -- refer to mortal HUMAN BEINGS.

see: Acts 27:37, Acts 2:41;

2Cor. 12:15,kjv margin


http://bible.crosswalk.com/InterlinearBible/ -- type in soul/ souls in the search field.


The word soul in the NT is a translation from the Greek word psuche. And psuche does not mean anything immortal.

Psuche has many different English translations -- "soul" is only one of them.

check it out for yourselves ----
http://www.ecclesia.org/truth/psuche.html
 
Soul just means a person.


"These are the sons of Zilpah.....sixteen souls." - Gen. 46:18

"These are the sons of Rachael....all the souls were fourteen." - Gen. 46:22

"These are the sons of Bilah.....all the souls were seven." - Gen. 46:25

"All the souls that came with Jacob into Egypt, WHICH CAME OUT OF HIS LOINS.....all the souls were threescore and six;" -- Gen. 46:26.

"And the sons of Joseph, which were born him in Egypt, were two SOULS" Gen. 46:27.


Modern English translations don't even use the word "souls" in these verses, they use the word "persons".
 
Vic said:
What we should be asking ourselves is "Where did Jesus go the day He died?" Is this the same 'paradise' spoken of in the OT times? Or is this the Hevenly paradise we Christians often refer to when reading Luke 23:43? Or were Jesus and the thief in two places at the same time?

lol, these questions have bugged me for years now. For sure the 'right' answers WILL affect someone's doctrine. :-?


Luke 23:43
And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.


Hi there!

For certain, the paradise mentioned in Luke is same paradise of she'ol in the Old Testament writings... and the "paradise" that Christians long to see is the place identified in John 14...

1 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. 2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.


That would be the place that Jesus said... "I go to prepare..." meaning it is not completed at that time as "paradise" or "Abraham's bosom" was already completed.

Destiny, it isn't wrong to refer to heaven as "paradise" until a particular passage comes into question. Then, it is necessary to understand the complete text, and the adherence of a "label" to heaven shades the truth of the text.


I think a good "label" for heaven is "home".


~serapha~
 
Bob10 said:
Soul just means a person.


"These are the sons of Zilpah.....sixteen souls." - Gen. 46:18

"These are the sons of Rachael....all the souls were fourteen." - Gen. 46:22

"These are the sons of Bilah.....all the souls were seven." - Gen. 46:25

"All the souls that came with Jacob into Egypt, WHICH CAME OUT OF HIS LOINS.....all the souls were threescore and six;" -- Gen. 46:26.

"And the sons of Joseph, which were born him in Egypt, were two SOULS" Gen. 46:27.


Modern English translations don't even use the word "souls" in these verses, they use the word "persons".

Okay...

You have chosen to site selective verses. So, fine, you have presented several passages that identify, in your opinion, that soul is to be taken as the person... as in English would be saying, for example...

"There is not a soul in the house"... meaning there are no people in the house.


However, ... and a big however it is...

The word "soul" is used 753 times in the King James Authorized Version of the Bible.... 29 times, the word is translation to be "person", 9 times to be creature.


http://www.blueletterbible.org/tmp_dir/ ... -3692.html

AV - soul 475, life 117, person 29, mind 15, heart 15, creature 9,
body 8, himself 8, yourselves 6, dead 5, will 4, desire 4, man 3,
themselves 3, any 3, appetite 2, misc 47; 753

so, while you are being selective in presenting passages, would you mind going to the 475 usages where the word is translated "soul" meaning inner man, and prove that those 475 useages were intended to mean "person" or "creature".


Again, in the language where it was written, it is a concept, something which is lost with the translation of being "person" or "creature"... and nothing besides the physical body of man. That concept is "the inner man"... and not the "outer man" or physical body.


~serapha~
 
Bob10 said:
serapha

[quote:9248e]Any time that the Bible speaks of "sleep"... it is of the physical body and not of the soul.

Paul talks about "they" or "them" being in their grave asleep. Paul does not say their "soul" is asleep. Paul says "they" are asleep in Jesus.


SOULS -- in the BIBLE -- refer to mortal HUMAN BEINGS.

see: Acts 27:37, Acts 2:41;

2Cor. 12:15,kjv margin


http://bible.crosswalk.com/InterlinearBible/ -- type in soul/ souls in the search field.


The word soul in the NT is a translation from the Greek word psuche. And psuche does not mean anything immortal.

Psuche has many different English translations -- "soul" is only one of them.

check it out for yourselves ----
http://www.ecclesia.org/truth/psuche.html
[/quote:9248e]

Hi there!

I did go to the source you cited, and I put "soul" in the search engine, but I did designate the New Testament Greek... and on the first search page... I find..


Mt 10:28
And fear * not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

kai; {CONJ} mh; {PRT} fobei'sqe {V-PNM-2P} ajpo; {PREP} tw'n {T-GPM} ajpoktennovntwn to; {T-ASN} sw'ma, {N-ASN} th;n {T-ASF} de; {CONJ} yuch;n {N-ASF} mh; {PRT} dunamevnwn {V-PNP-GPM} ajpoktei'nai: {V-AAN} fobei'sqe {V-PNM-2P} de; {CONJ} ma'llon {ADV} to;n {T-ASM} dunavmenon {V-PNP-ASM} kai; {CONJ} yuch;n {N-ASF} kai; {CONJ} sw'ma {N-ASN} ajpolevsai {V-AAN} ejn {PREP} geevnnh/. {N-DSF}


Robertson's Word Pictures of the New Testament

Destroy both soul and body in hell (kai psuchn kai swma apolesai en geennh). Note "soul" here of the eternal spirit, not just life in the body. "Destroy" here is not annihilation, but eternal punishment in Gehenna (the real hell) for which see on "Mt 5:22". Bruce thinks that the devil as the tempter is here meant, not God as the judge, but surely he is wrong. There is no more needed lesson today than the fear of God.


~thanks for sharing~
 
serapha

The word "soul" is used 753 times in the King James Authorized Version of the Bible....
The word nephesh occurs 754 times in the Hebrew Old Testament.


would you mind going to the 475 usages where the word is translated "soul" meaning inner man

If by "inner man" you mean: "breath", "lust", "appetite", "greed" -- I can see that.


But if by "inner man" you mean the "immortal" part of man -- I can't see that in the remaining 475 usages.
http://www.ecclesia.org/truth/nephesh.html

Perhaps you could pick one out, in the above link.
 
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