Bible Study Absent from the body...have a question

[serapha]

Hi there!

Not every scholar agrees with you. In fact, I would say most do not.



~serapha~

New Unger's Bible Dictionary


SOUL: (generally the rendering of Heb. nephesh, a "breathing" creature; Gk. psuche, "breath," etc., the equivalent of nephesh). The Heb. term may indicate not only the entire inner nature of man, but also his entire personality, i.e., all that pertains to the person of man; in the sense of person; somebody, everybody (Deut. 26:16; cf. Josh. 11:11,14)....

The Gk. term psuche has the simple meaning of life (Matt. 6:25; Luke 12:22); that in which there is life, a living being (1Cor. 15:45); every soul, i.e., every one (Acts 3:23). It also has the meaning of the seat of the feelings, desires, affections, aversions (our soul, heart, etc.; RV [Revised Version] almost uniformly soul); the human soul, insofar as it is so constituted that, by the right use of aids offered it by God, it can attain its highest end and secure eternal blessedness; the soul regarded as a moral being designed for everlasting life (3John 2; Heb. 13:17; James 1:21; 5:20; 1Pet. 1:9). Another meaning of psuche is the soul as an essence that differs from the body and is not dissolved by death (Matt. 10:28); the soul freed from the body, a disembodied soul (Acts 2:27; Rev. 20:4).

 

[Bob10]

Not every scholar agrees with you. In fact, I would say most do not.

serapha,

That doesn't prove who's right.


The soul designates the physical life.

The soul means the entire human being in its physical life needing food and clothing (Matthew 6:25) -- "Therefore....take no thought for your life [psuche], what you shall eat, or what you shall drink; nor yet for your body, what you shall put on. Is not the life [psuche] more than meat, and the body than rainment?"


Soul is a breathing organism.
"And Paul went down, and fell on him, and embracing him said, 'Trouble not yourselves; for his life [psuche] is in him' " - Acts 20:10.



".....and man became a living soul [nephesh]" - Gen 2:7.

".....and whateverso Adam called ever living creature [nephesh], that was the name thereof" - Gen 2:19.


I agree with this scholarly article from Holman Bible Dictionary.
http://www.studylight.org/dic/hbd/view.cgi?number=T5974

 

[Free]

Bob,

Luke what, please --- chapters and verses.

The same passage which we have discussed several times: Luke 16:19-31.

The soul designates the physical life.

We've been through this many times before. The meaning of soul has many different nuances, some not meaning physical life. Why do you continually overlook this and the Scriptures which support those other meanings?

 

[Bob10]

Free,

The meaning of soul has many different nuances, some not meaning physical life.

Where is nephesh and psuche used in a "non physical" meaning ?

Luke 16:19-31

This is lazarus and the rich man. The rich man is dead, and "lifts up his eyes" when he is resurrected from the dead. see Daniel 12:2

 

[serapha]

I agree with this scholarly article from Holman Bible Dictionary.
http://www.studylight.org/dic/hbd/view.cgi?number=T5974

According to the Bible, a human being exists as a whole unit and remains also as a whole person in the hand of God after death. A person is not at any time viewed as a bodiless soul.

I noted that no biblical passage was given to support this statement.


~serapha~

 

[Free]

Bob,

This is lazarus and the rich man. The rich man is dead, and "lifts up his eyes" when he is resurrected from the dead. see Daniel 12:2

Dan. 12:2, "'Many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace {and} everlasting contempt.'"

This has to do with the resurrection which has nothing to do with the passage in Luke.

You also never responded to Matt. 17:3 and Matt. 22:32. These are consistent with the passage in Luke and the fact that man as an immortal soul.

 

[serapha]

Free,

Doesn't matter. I've given verses which prove that man lives after he dies and there are a few more. The Bible is pretty clear on that.

You are absolutely correct. Man does live after he dies.

BUT WHEN ? ---- immediately after death, or at Jesus' return..........

For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be MADE ALIVE. But every MAN in his own order: Christ first; afterward they that are Christ's AT HIS COMING (1 Cor. 15:22-23).

IMO that's as clear as crystal.

Hi there!

Well, let's be specific. In the book of Revelation, it speaks of the "souls" under the altar. These are the "souls" who were martyred on this earth... and whose physical bodies are still on the earth while their souls are in heaven. And those "souls" ask "how long before the judgment?"

Now tell me, how would those "souls" be considered complete (whole) people in their physical bodies when we all know that the resurrection has yet to occur?


is that specific enough?


~serapha~

Revelation 6:9-17
9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

 

[serapha]

For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be MADE ALIVE. But every MAN in his own order: Christ first; afterward they that are Christ's AT HIS COMING (1 Cor. 15:22-23).

IMO that's as clear as crystal.

Hi there!

:angel:


I believe your "crystal" would be as in "crystal ball" and not in clarity.

15:22
For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

Robertson's Word Pictures of the New Testament

Shall be made alive (zwopoihqhsontai). First future passive indicative of zwopoiew, late verb (Aristotle) to give life, to restore to life as here. In verse Romans 36 zwopoieitai is used in the sense of natural life as in John 5:21; John 6:63 of spiritual life. It is not easy to catch Paul's thought here. He means resurrection (restoration) by the verb here, but not necessarily eternal life or salvation. So also panteß may not coincide in both clauses. All who die die in Adam, all who will be made alive will be made alive (restored to life) in Christ. The same problem occurs in Romans 5:18 about "all," and in verse Romans 15:19 about "the many."

15:23
But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

Robertson's Word Pictures of the New Testament

Order (tagmati). Old military term from tassw, to arrange, here only in N.T. Each in his own division, troop, rank. At his coming (en th parousiai). The word parousia was the technical word "for the arrival or visit of the king or emperor" and can be traced from the Ptolemaic period into the second century A.D. (Deissmann, Light from the Ancient East, p. 368). "Advent-coins were struck after a parousia of the emperor." Paul is only discussing "those that are Christ's" (Romans 3:23; Galatians 5:24) and so says nothing about judgment (cf. 1 Thessalonians 2:19; 1 Thessalonians 3:13; 1 Thessalonians 4:15; 1 Thessalonians 5:23).

 

[serapha]

Free,

The meaning of soul has many different nuances, some not meaning physical life.

Where is nephesh and psuche used in a "non physical" meaning ?

Hi there!

:angel:



Luke 10:27
And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.



Mat 26:38 Then saith he unto them, My soul is exceeding sorrowful, even unto death: tarry ye here, and watch with me.



Mar 12:33 And to love him with all the heart, and with all the understanding, and with all the soul, and with all the strength, and to love [his] neighbour as himself, is more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices.



Jhn 12:27 Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour: but for this cause came I unto this hour.



Act 2:27 Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.


Act 2:31 He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.



1Th 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and [I pray God] your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.



Hbr 4:12 For the word of God [is] quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and [is] a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.


Hbr 6:19 Which [hope] we have as an anchor of the soul, both sure and stedfast, and which entereth into that within the veil;



Hbr 10:39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.



Jam 5:20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.



2Pe 2:8 (For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed [his] righteous soul from day to day with [their] unlawful deeds;)



Job 7:11 Therefore I will not refrain my mouth; I will speak in the anguish of my spirit; I will complain in the bitterness of my soul.



Job 10:1 My soul is weary of my life; I will leave my complaint upon myself; I will speak in the bitterness of my soul.





Job 12:10 In whose hand [is] the soul of every living thing, and the breath of all mankind.



Job 14:22 But his flesh upon him shall have pain, and his soul within him shall mourn.




Job 19:2 How long will ye vex my soul, and break me in pieces with words?



Job 27:8 For what [is] the hope of the hypocrite, though he hath gained, when God taketh away his soul?



Job 30:16 And now my soul is poured out upon me; the days of affliction have taken hold upon me.



Job 30:25 Did not I weep for him that was in trouble? was [not] my soul grieved for the poor?


Job 33:18 He keepeth back his soul from the pit, and his life from perishing by the sword.




Job 33:22 Yea, his soul draweth near unto the grave, and his life to the destroyers.



Job 33:28 He will deliver his soul from going into the pit, and his life shall see the light.

 

[Bob10]

serapha,

Thank you very much for those verses.

Hbr 4:12 For the word of God [is] quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and [is] a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

psuche, used of the life of man, which can be lost, destroyed, saved, laid down, &c., occurs 58 times, and is rendered:
1. "life" : Matt. 2:20; 6:25; 10:39; 16:25; 20:28. Mark 3:4; 8:35; 10:45. Luke 6:9; 9:24, 56; 12:23; 14:26; 17:33 (*2). John 10:11, 15, 17; 12:25; 13:37, 38; 15:13. Acts 15:26; 20:10, 24; 27:10, 22. Rom. 11:3; 16:4. Phil. 2:30. 1John 3:16. Rev. 12:11.

2. "soul" : Matt. 10:28; 16:26. Mark 8:36, 37. Luke 12:20; 21:10. 1Thess. 2:8; 5:23. Heb. 4:12; 6:19; 10:39; 13:17. James 1:21. 1Pet. 1:9; 2:11, 25; 4:19.

http://www.ecclesia.org/truth/psuche.html

 

[serapha]

serapha,

Thank you very much for those verses.

Hbr 4:12 For the word of God [is] quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and [is] a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

psuche, used of the life of man, which can be lost, destroyed, saved, laid down, &c., occurs 58 times, and is rendered:
1. "life" : Matt. 2:20; 6:25; 10:39; 16:25; 20:28. Mark 3:4; 8:35; 10:45. Luke 6:9; 9:24, 56; 12:23; 14:26; 17:33 (*2). John 10:11, 15, 17; 12:25; 13:37, 38; 15:13. Acts 15:26; 20:10, 24; 27:10, 22. Rom. 11:3; 16:4. Phil. 2:30. 1John 3:16. Rev. 12:11.

2. "soul" : Matt. 10:28; 16:26. Mark 8:36, 37. Luke 12:20; 21:10. 1Thess. 2:8; 5:23. Heb. 4:12; 6:19; 10:39; 13:17. James 1:21. 1Pet. 1:9; 2:11, 25; 4:19.

http://www.ecclesia.org/truth/psuche.html

And your point is?


The passages I cited remain passages which are not meaning the "life of man".


~serapha~

 

[Free]

Bob,

Did you miss my post at the top of this page?

 

[Bob10]

serapha

The passages I cited remain passages which are not meaning the "life of man".

yea, just put "life" in for "soul"; same meaning.

 

[Bob10]

Free

This has to do with the resurrection which has nothing to do with the passage in Luke.

I think the Lazarus and Rich Man story is all about the resurrection.

The dead are asleep [eyes closed]. The rich man "lift up his eyes" [awoke] and sees Abraham and Lazarus; Even as Jesus warned the Pharisees, "You shall SEE Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom, and you yourselves cast out".

this will only occur in the resurrection.

 

[Free]

Bob,

I think the Lazarus and Rich Man story is all about the resurrection.

The dead are asleep [eyes closed]. The rich man "lift up his eyes" [awoke] and sees Abraham and Lazarus; Even as Jesus warned the Pharisees, "You shall SEE Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom, and you yourselves cast out".

this will only occur in the resurrection.

It cannot be about the resurrection.

First, there is no mention of the resurrection, only that two men died. Second, one was taken to Abraham's bosom, which is the place where the righteous dead await the resurrection according to Judaism. Third, the rich man is in Hades, which is not hell; it, too, is believed to be a place of waiting before the resurrection and judgement (hell, the final destination of the unsaved, is gehenna). Fourth, the passage itself makes it clear that it cannot be after the resurrection:

Luke 16:27-31, "27 "And he said, `Then I beg you, father, that you send him to my father's house-- 28 for I have five brothers--in order that he may warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.' 29 "But Abraham said, `They have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear them.' 30 "But he said, `No, father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent!' 31 "But he said to him, `If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be persuaded even if someone rises from the dead.' " "

Here we see that the man still wants Lazarus to go and warn his brothers, but if the resurrection had already taken place, his brothers would already be in Hades with him. Also, he pleads with Abraham to send someone from the dead, that is, Lazarus.

And you still haven't responded to my two passages in Matt.

 

[Bob10]

Free,

Luke 16:27-31, "27 "And he said, `Then I beg you, father, that you send him to my father's house-- 28 for I have five brothers--in order that he may warn them......

"the dead know nothing" (Eccl. 9:5-6) and "their thoughts perish" (Psalms 146:4). In death, there is no knowledge of passing time (Eccl. 9: 5,6,10; Ps. 146: 4). The next moment is the resurrection!

Therefore, to the rich man, his five brothers were still living at home with their father, where the rich man last saw them, centuries before, before he died. This proves the dead have no consciousness!

First, there is no mention of the resurrection, only that two men died....

Then in hell [hades, the grave], the rich man "lift up his eyes". To me, this means he was resurrected. He is no longer asleep [eyes closed]; he is awake [eyes opened], in a resurrection: "Many of them that SLEEP in the dust shall AWAKE......" (Dan 12:2).

Jesus, too, was in hell [hades, the grave] and awoke [eyes opened].

 

[Free]

Bob,

Your explanation is really stretching the passage to make it fit within your theological framework. My view is consistent with the two passages in Matt., as well as Luke 23:43, Acts 2:27, Acts 7:59, 2 Cor. 5:6-9, Phil. 1:23, and Rev. 6:9-11.

 

[Bob10]

My view is consistent with the two passages in Matt., as well as Luke 23:43........

Free, we do have different views.

My take on Luke 23:43 is: (forgive me if I explained my position before)

Since many believe in continued consciousness, they placed the comma before “todayâ€Â.

"Today" was the day Christ made the promise, not the day they would be in paradise. Because Jesus' soul [psuche, self] went to hell [hades, the grave] for three days and three nights (Acts 2:27).

**********************************

IV. psuche, used to emphasize the pronoun, as we use "self" (e.g. "my soul" = "myself"), occurs 21 times and is rendered
1. "soul" : Matt. 11:29; 12:18; 26:38. Mark 14:34. Luke 1:46; 12:19. John 12:27. Acts 2:27, 31......

http://www.ecclesia.org/truth/psuche.html

 

[Free]

And what of the rest of the passages I cited?

 

[Bob10]

Free,

Acts 7:59

Nowhere in the scripture can we find that the flesh was to live forever. We are told that in the very beginning, the natural man was taken from the ground (dust) "and unto dust shalt thou return" (Genesis 2:7; 3:19).

In other words, flesh was to go back from which it came, and the breath of life (ruwach - spirit - see Genesis 6:17; 7:22) was to go back to the one that gave it. "Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit (ruwach - Breath of Life) shall return unto God who gave it" (Ecclesiastes 12:7).

When God "taketh away their breath (ruwach), they (men) die, and return to their dust" (Psalm 104:29).