Bible Study Absent From the Body

[Quantrill]

Well, that's an interesting point ...keeping in mind we are just guessing here. Agreed, this is scriptural, but is it relevant. I could make guesses like "we don't know why he is scared, but I don't know. I do know that God does not contradict himself and I know in Isaiah 65:17 is says, "And the former things [of life] will not be remembered or come to mind." AMP So, I put it to you to make John 20:27 and Isaiah 65:17 not contradict. My wild guess, probably wrong, at least is not a contradiction.


Yes. I suppose one could be we can't even remember in heaven what happened 1 second ago. I assume it means 'life before our physical death, but fair enough to say it could be something else.


If you want to give me $1 million and not tell me why, I am good with that. Again, this is not a scripture, but any interesting theory based on our culture.


Hmmm, I'm content not knowing what a bad person I am/was. Again, the crux of the matter is to explain away Isaiah 65:17 such that we remember the past [life].
Aside: I would love to remember my Dad when I see him. Knowing who he is would make the meeting more meaningful from an earthly perspective, but that does explain Isaiah 65:17.

You keep interjecting [of life] into the text. It is not there. (Is. 65:17) "For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind."

The crux of the matter is not to explain away (Is. 65:17). (John 20:27) does not contradict with (Is. 65:17). Because (Is. 65:17) is not saying our memory is going to be erased. The new heaven and earth will be glorious to the extent that we will not consider the old any more. The nail prints in the hands of Jesus and the scar in His side will be a reminder forever of our sins.

You are always going to be a saved sinner. You're not going to be a person who is there for any other reason. Forever.

So tell me, will we forget about Christ's sacrifice and suffering? Will we never discuss it with anyone or any angel? If not, how can we forget our sins. I am not saying we will have the same burden for our sins as we will be sinless and in glorified bodies.

To say we are going to have some sort of 'spiritual lobotomy' is not right, I believe.

Quantrill

 

[Fastfredy0]

You keep interjecting [of life] into the text. It is not there. (Is. 65:17) "For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind."

Agreed, "of life" is not there, it is an AMP version comment. I eluded to this in a previous post.

The nail prints in the hands of Jesus and the scar in His side will be a reminder forever of our sins.

This is a conclusion that is not address in scripture. It does not explain Isaiah 65:17 and Revelation 21:4

Because (Is. 65:17) is not saying our memory is going to be erased.

Well, sure sounds like it to me. But, it wouldn't be the first time I was wrong.
Isaiah 65:17 "And the former things [of life] will not be remembered or come to mind."
Revelation 21:4 He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death will not exist any more—or mourning, or crying, or pain, for the former things have ceased to exist.”

So tell me, will we forget about Christ's sacrifice and suffering?

Isaiah 65:17 and Revelation 21:4 would indicate we would. If it weren't for those verses I would side with you. You have not explained the verses.

Will we never discuss it with anyone or any angel? If not, how can we forget our sins.

Isaiah 65:17 and Revelation 21:4 would indicate we would not discuss it in regards to memories of the past life.
We can forget our sins if God wants it so as he is all-powerful.

To say we are going to have some sort of 'spiritual lobotomy' is not right, I believe.

I'm all for having a lobotomy (new body) in regards to my sin. If you want to recall your sinfulness, request an exception.

The crux of the matter is:
Gods says Isaiah 65:17 "And the former things will not be remembered or come to mind."
and you say "And the former things will be remembered or come to mind."
... you have to explain the seeming contradiction keeping in mind that SCRIPTURE is greater than human reason (IMO), which implies that you must exegete the verse or explain how the context gives it a particular meaning that supports your view.

 

[for_his_glory]

I'm not sure it won't matter. It is an extremely important aspect of the history of God and our history in forming us as He wants us. And I think, of such importance so as not to be erased from our memory.

Do you not think we will converse with angels? How about the angels who were deployed by God to watch over us while on this earth? Will we, being us and the angels, share our experiences of certain events that occurred? How can we do that if we don't remember them? I believe we will.

Quantrill

No one can answer these questions as no one has any positive knowledge, but can only speculate of what we will be like in the New Jerusalem. Matthew 22:30 and 1 John 3:2 says we will be like Christ and the angels. IMO I don't think we will have any memory of our past life as I for one am looking forward to a new better life with Christ in the New Jerusalem. I don't want to remember all the bad things of my past.

 

[Quantrill]

Agreed, "of life" is not there, it is an AMP version comment. I eluded to this in a previous post.



This is a conclusion that is not address in scripture. It does not explain Isaiah 65:17 and Revelation 21:4


Well, sure sounds like it to me. But, it wouldn't be the first time I was wrong.
Isaiah 65:17 "And the former things [of life] will not be remembered or come to mind."
Revelation 21:4 He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death will not exist any more—or mourning, or crying, or pain, for the former things have ceased to exist.”


Isaiah 65:17 and Revelation 21:4 would indicate we would. If it weren't for those verses I would side with you. You have not explained the verses.



Isaiah 65:17 and Revelation 21:4 would indicate we would not discuss it in regards to memories of the past life.
We can forget our sins if God wants it so as he is all-powerful.



I'm all for having a lobotomy (new body) in regards to my sin. If you want to recall your sinfulness, request an exception.

The crux of the matter is:
Gods says Isaiah 65:17 "And the former things will not be remembered or come to mind."
and you say "And the former things will be remembered or come to mind."
... you have to explain the seeming contradiction keeping in mind that SCRIPTURE is greater than human reason (IMO), which implies that you must exegete the verse or explain how the context gives it a particular meaning that supports your view.

Neither is 'former things' found in (Is. 65:17). "...new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come to mind."

(Rev. 21:4)"...for the former things are passed away"

The new heavens and earth will be so different and glorious to the degree that the old heavens and earth shall not be remembered. One should ask, what is meant by 'heavens' here in (Is. 65:17)? For we have no knowledge of Heaven as yet, to forget. It must address the heavens or atmosphere above us that we do know. And former things passed away in (Rev. 21:4) doesn't indicate memory erasure.

Christ's nail prints in His hands and wound in His side is Scripture. Concerning Moses and Elijah on the Mount of Transfiguration, that is Scripture. Concerning Lazarus and Abraham in hades, that is Scripture, which I also do not believe is a parable but a real historical event.

Your interpretation on one verse, (Is. 65:17) has you making some terrible conclusions in my opinion. You conclude we will not remember Christ's sacrifice and suffering because our memories will be wiped clean. Let me ask you, Does Christ remember His sacrifice and sufferings? Does He look at His hands and side and wonder what happened here?

Why does David say "...my sin is ever before me."? (Ps. 51:3) Because the written Word is forever recorded. (Ps. 119:88-89) So, will the Bible no longer exist? The Bible...which records the history of God's redemption.

It's not a question of 'wanting to recall my sinfulness'. Just as now, I have not the ability to know what it means to be sinless with a glorified body in Heaven in the presence of God. I remember my sins now as a sinner, one who still sins.
When I get there, my understanding and experience will be greatly affected by the change. Affected but not erased, in my opinion.

Again, we are speculating. I know. But our eternal life began on earth, and is lived on earth. Our degree of love for the Lord is based upon our understanding of who we are as a sinner. (Luke 7:47) I just don't see that being erased from our memory. My opinion.

Quantrill

 

[Quantrill]

No one can answer these questions as no one has any positive knowledge, but can only speculate of what we will be like in the New Jerusalem. Matthew 22:30 and 1 John 3:2 says we will be like Christ and the angels. IMO I don't think we will have any memory of our past life as I for one am looking forward to a new better life with Christ in the New Jerusalem. I don't want to remember all the bad things of my past.

Yes, none of us knows how it will be. But we are speculating based upon that which we know. Which is as far as we can go.

Quantrill

 

[Fastfredy0]

The new heavens and earth will be so different and glorious to the degree that the old heavens and earth shall not be remembered. One should ask, what is meant by 'heavens' here in (Is. 65:17)? For we have no knowledge of Heaven as yet, to forget. It must address the heavens or atmosphere above us that we do know. And former things passed away in (Rev. 21:4) doesn't indicate memory erasure.

A reasonable explanation. Thank you for replying.

Christ's nail prints in His hands and wound in His side is Scripture. Concerning Moses and Elijah on the Mount of Transfiguration, that is Scripture. Concerning Lazarus and Abraham in hades, that is Scripture, which I also do not believe is a parable but a real historical event.

Well, concerning Moses and Elijah ... they were born in different (non intersecting) earthly times. Therefore, it is not possible they knew each other during their lives on earth. So this evidence can be dismissed. I believe the Lazarus passage is a parable as I don't believe believe people in heaven will be able to converse with those in Hell. I grant this worth consideration.

You conclude we will not remember Christ's sacrifice and suffering because our memories will be wiped clean.

Well, you are arguing using human emotion. Also, my conclusion does not negate the possibility that Christ gives a general explanation, though I don't see why He is obligated to give any explanation and thus there would be no evidence in that case to substantiate your position. (I grant, your sentiments are appealing to me)

Let me ask you, Does Christ remember His sacrifice and sufferings? Does He look at His hands and side and wonder what happened here?

God (Christ's divine nature) is all knowing and does not change (he does not forget). So the answer is Christ's knows and always will know all past, current and future events. Whereas the question at hand is our memory, your question and my answer is irrelevant.

Why does David say "...my sin is ever before me."? (Ps. 51:3) Because the written Word is forever recorded. (Ps. 119:88-89) So, will the Bible no longer exist? The Bible...which records the history of God's redemption.

The question at hand is "will people recall their lives on earth in any way". The fact or fiction that a Bible will be in heaven is not relevant. I believe God will destroy the whole earth and create a new one, so I assume the Bible(s) you are referring to will be 'toast'.

When I get there, my understanding and experience will be greatly affected by the change. Affected but not erased, in my opinion.

I am sympathetic to this position. I personally am fond of the idea we will recall some things. I want to talk to my dad and hug him. I hope your right in some respects.

Again, we are speculating.

AGREED. It is an interesting idea to contemplate. Thanks for your reasonable input.

 

[for_his_glory]

Yes, none of us knows how it will be. But we are speculating based upon that which we know. Which is as far as we can go.

Quantrill

Very true as there is no knowledge of that which we can only speculate of the New Jerusalem.

 

[for_his_glory]

One should ask, what is meant by 'heavens' here in (Is. 65:17)? For we have no knowledge of Heaven as yet, to forget. It must address the heavens or atmosphere above us that we do know.

Isa 65:17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

Rev 21:5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

Take note: Isaiah says "heavens" plural and Rev says "heaven" singular.

According to the scriptures below the first heaven would be the atmosphere. We know by what is written in Rev 22:1-5 that God, Jesus and the holy angels will dwell in the New Jerusalem as being the tabernacle and there will be no night or the need of the sun to light up the day. I believe there will no longer be a need of the second or third heaven as according Rev 21:1-5.

I truly believe we will no longer have any recall of our former life as all things are made new again, even us who will be with Christ forever will be changed. Will we recognize our loved ones in the New Jerusalem, nobody could honestly say yes or no.

There are three heavens:

First heaven - The firmament, Earths Atmosphere -which is the immediate sky, where the “fowls of the heaven” (Genesis 2:19; 7:3,23; Psalms 8:8, etc.), “the eagles of heaven” (Lamentations 4:19), it is our atmosphere that surrounds the earth.

Second Heaven - Outer Space, the starry heavens (Deuteronomy 17:3; Jeremiah 8:2; Matthew 24:29).
The second heaven is the starry heavens, where our atmosphere ends. It is the heavens in which the sun, moon, and stars are fixed in orbit.

Third Heaven - This is where God, Jesus and the holy angels dwell plus the very breath of just men dwell as when we die it is that breath that returns back to God. It is called “The heaven of heavens,” (Deuteronomy 10:14; 1 Kings 8:27; Psalms 115:16; 148:4). (1Kings 8:27) - “The heavens, even the highest heaven, cannot contain you. The third heaven is beyond the space and stars. Where no man has seen by telescope. This heaven is the dwelling-place of God (John 3:13).





​

 

[Doug Brents]

Isa 65:17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

Rev 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.

Rev 21:5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

Take note: Isaiah says "heavens" plural and Rev says "heaven" singular.

According to the scriptures below the first heaven would be the atmosphere. We know by what is written in Rev 22:1-5 that God, Jesus and the holy angels will dwell in the New Jerusalem as being the tabernacle and there will be no night or the need of the sun to light up the day. I believe there will no longer be a need of the second or third heaven as according Rev 21:1-5.

I truly believe we will no longer have any recall of our former life as all things are made new again, even us who will be with Christ forever will be changed. Will we recognize our loved ones in the New Jerusalem, nobody could honestly say yes or no.

There are three heavens:

First heaven - The firmament, Earths Atmosphere -which is the immediate sky, where the “fowls of the heaven” (Genesis 2:19; 7:3,23; Psalms 8:8, etc.), “the eagles of heaven” (Lamentations 4:19), it is our atmosphere that surrounds the earth.

Second Heaven - Outer Space, the starry heavens (Deuteronomy 17:3; Jeremiah 8:2; Matthew 24:29).
The second heaven is the starry heavens, where our atmosphere ends. It is the heavens in which the sun, moon, and stars are fixed in orbit.

Third Heaven - This is where God, Jesus and the holy angels dwell plus the very breath of just men dwell as when we die it is that breath that returns back to God. It is called “The heaven of heavens,” (Deuteronomy 10:14; 1 Kings 8:27; Psalms 115:16; 148:4). (1Kings 8:27) - “The heavens, even the highest heaven, cannot contain you. The third heaven is beyond the space and stars. Where no man has seen by telescope. This heaven is the dwelling-place of God (John 3:13).​

I have heard the Three Heavens explained the same way as they were understood in ancient times. The first and second were also combined into "the heavenly realms" as referenced in Eph 6:12.

I do believe that we will be able to recognize each other in Heaven. Several Scriptures give this impression. For example:
1. The transfiguration - the Spirits of Moses and Elijah were recognizable to the Apostles who saw them. They had never seen them personally, but were able to recognize them. Will that be because our spirit will intuitively know other spirits? Or was it only because the Holy Spirit told the Apostles who they were seeing? Just food for thought.

2. The parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man. The rich man recognized Lazarus and Lazarus the rich man. Does this parable reflect on this aspect of Eternity? I don't know, but I believe so. Again, food for thought.

But I would agree with the observation from Isa 65:17, that we will not remember this world (especially the bad things). I think we will be able to recognize each other even if we do not remember each other, but we probably won't remember what it was like to live in this world.

These are only my thoughts and observations. As others have said, we won't know for sure the answers to these questions until we are there and experience them.

 

[Quantrill]

This is my last post on this subject. I have presented what I believe, and still believe it.

To believe that our memories are erased is to wake up when you die not knowing anything. Nothing. I reject that position.

Quantrill

 

[Fastfredy0]

To believe that our memories are erased is to wake up when you die not knowing anything. Nothing. I reject that position.

LOL ... heavenly Alzheimers. Good point.

 

[jasonc]

Just have a chapter about Ralph.
It will sell.

chapter ?a book with photos of his adventures

 

[jasonc]

LOL ... heavenly Alzheimers. Good point.

dementia is a short term or long term memory loss ,they will recall and think they are in their youth .my grandfather did this with his deceased wife ,and thought it was in late 60s,

strange how its different .my dad is now in this .I fear he will forget his name one day

 

[Fastfredy0]

strange how its different .my dad is now in this .I fear he will forget his name one day

Same with my 91 yr old mom.

 

[jasonc]

Same with my 91 yr old mom.

my wife's aunt is 92 ,she ,or rather I have her bent to history.she will mention old town stuff and I have to figure out where as they use older names of streets and also the addresses are different .she also did her family tree years ago and drive 100s of miles to take photos of graves,paid for death certificates and buried her siblings .we visited her a few months ago and I found a buried in law in the same county in a historic one .

yet she can't remember yesterday sometimes

 

[for_his_glory]

This is my last post on this subject. I have presented what I believe, and still believe it.

To believe that our memories are erased is to wake up when you die not knowing anything. Nothing. I reject that position.

Quantrill

We can with our mind reject those things we have no knowledge of, but when scripture says the past will be remembered no more I have to believe what the scriptures say over what my mind wants to think otherwise. But it is your choice to believe how you want.

 

[for_his_glory]

For the time I have here on earth I want to be mindful of being present with the Lord (fellowship) as I walk in the Spirit being absent from walking in the flesh (no fellowship). Is it easy, no, as the flesh wants what it wants. Can it be done, yes, with the help of Jesus in those areas we are weak in.