Adam and Eve

[John the Baptist]

Another problem with the Adam and Eve story; Adam and Eve are supposed to completely innocent and have no knowledge of evil. God tells Adam that he will surely die if he eats from the tree.

But how does he know that dying is a bad thing if he has never experienced it?

*****
They were created with PERFECT AGAPE LOVE, and with no desire (propensity) to sin. They needed not to be Born again. (at their creation) The one that they truely loved was their maker! Who else would they worship?? Or believe in?? Think about that! :wink:

The only thing that they lacked, was to MATURE into an MATURE Perfection, safe to save for all of eternity. Nahum 1:9 This is what Christ/God/man came to prove. That Adam was not a flawed creation of God. And how did Adam know right from wrong you ask??

The Covenant is Eternal! Hebrews 13:20 How else did satan & his evil angels fall?. The Master had just on the sixth day created Adam & Eve, what kind of God would not give these two His first 7th day Sabbath warning sermom???

You do remember that satan was the ex/covering cherub over the Ark in the heavenly Throme room of the Most Holy place right? And what was inside of the Ark? (the Covenant) And what was the cover of this Ark called, (the MERCY SEAT) long, long before the creation of Adam!

---John
***
If they don't know right from wrong how do they know its bad to disobey God?

***
PS: Another thought. Does God need to give me proof for what I will become if I take a jump off of a 300' up water tower??

 

[Gabbylittleangel]

As a parent you wouldn't burn your children for eternity because they didn't love you.

Uhoh, a holier than God attitude.

Just what would you do when your child turns against you, calls you a liar, joins forces with your worst enemy who is trying to take your world away from you?

If I may second guess your response...

You would stop him from it ~ or die trying. To die trying ~~brings us to the cross. The parent created a way to keep His children from burning for all eternity. The choice belongs to the child.

God does not force anyone to spend eternity with Him in Heaven if they choose not to.

 

[John the Baptist]

As a parent you wouldn't burn your children for eternity because they didn't love you.

Uhoh, a holier than God attitude.

Just what would you do when your child turns against you, calls you a liar, joins forces with your worst enemy who is trying to take your world away from you?

If I may second guess your response...

You would stop him from it ~ or die trying. To die trying ~~brings us to the cross. The parent created a way to keep His children from burning for all eternity. The choice belongs to the child.

God does not force anyone to spend eternity with Him in Heaven if they choose not to.

*****
Hi, perhaps the point was missed?
If not, let me say it the way I see it.
There is no way that a loving Godhead would execute judgement by a hell that burned through/out eternity any person that could not die!??

Ezekiel 18:4 & Ezekiel 18:20 along with the understanding that no person can even stay alive without the tree of life! And that Truth is all the way from Genesis 3:21-22 to the new life of Revelation 22:2-3. Yet, the Godhead does reveal the lost sinners fate in Obadiah 1:16 K.J.

Remember Matthew 4:4. And if not? Most 'temporary' Spirit Led Romans 8:14 ones (Hebrews 6:1-6) can be located in Revelation 17:5 in a fairly short period of time. (no 'individual' suggestion to who that is though)

---John

 

[Gabbylittleangel]

lemonfresh,
I went back through this whole thread. It appears to be the gospel according to satan.

Why are the children of Adam and Eve (and all of humanity for that matter), supposedly punished for the actions of their parents?

Another problem with the Adam and Eve story; Adam and Eve are supposed to completely innocent and have no knowledge of evil. God tells Adam that he will surely die if he eats from the tree.
But how does he know that dying is a bad thing if he has never experienced it?
If they don't know right from wrong how do they know its bad to disobey God?

Gen 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: ...

They were not created as dumb animals who did not know the difference between right and wrong.

Gen 2:16-17 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

This verse says that Adam knew better. I have walked with God for a very long time. He has never demanded something from me without first giving it to me. God told Adam "thou shalt not". He told Adam the results of doing so. You do not see anywhere in this story where Adam responds with "Huh, what? Say again? Knowledge of good and what? if I do..what happens? Lets talk this over Lord. What if I get real hungry? What if it accidentally gets in my mouth? How close can I get to this forbidden fruit without something bad happening.?"

In your story, God speaks using words that Adam does not know the meaning of. By the way, every tree in the world was there. Adam could have eaten anything anywhere. Just one tree was off limits. It was nothing like that silly painting of the 'Garden of Eden' where there was only one tree with a white picket fence around it.

Children inherit their physical characteristics from their parents. They also inherit their spiritual characteristics from their parents. Adam and Eve did not have children until after they had sinned, and their physical and spiritual characteristics had changed, and these characteristics were passed on to all of the generations of man through Adam's sin.

Thats just it, we don't punish people for being born with a physical defect. A person has no control on what they inherit either way. It is immoral to punish people for crimes they did not commit.

The person with the defect lives with it anyway.

(By the way, the world is much more hateful than you know. People with birth defects are ridiculed, mocked, degraded and tormented for things that they have no control over. Demands are constantly made that they conform to someone else's standard of normal, or are held accountable for not submitting to some medical procedure or drug that will magically fix the problem. The voice of experience has spoken)

Gen. 3:16 I will greatly increase your pains in childbearing;
with pain you will give birth to children.
Your desire will be for your husband,
and he will rule over you.
Gen. 3: 17 ...Cursed is the ground because of you;
through painful toil you will eat of it
all the days of your life.18 It will produce thorns and thistles for you,
and you will eat the plants of the field. 19 By the sweat of your brow
you will eat your food until you return to the ground,
since from it you were taken; for dust you are and to dust you will return."
Romans 5:12 Wherefore as by one man sin entered into this world and by sin death; and so death passed upon all men

Adam and Eve aren't in paradise anymore being subject to eventual death and so the rest of humanity can't be in paradise either. And now people supposedly need to redeem themselves for something they didn't do.

You have a glimpse of God's mercy. If God had left them in paradise, they would have eaten from the tree of life and lived forever in sin. You also have a picture of the Holiness and power of God. When He says don't eat the fruit or else, He means it.

Um...people can not redeem themselves. For things that they did or did not do. The 'something they didn't do' the Bible calls iniquity. Sin that you commit either by doing something or failing to do something is transgression. Iniquity can take many forms. The child is bent toward being a drunk because the parents are. The person that steals your care from you has committed a transgression. You, the person who has been stolen from, have the iniquity. You can seek vengeance, you can forgive. Either way, you still have the loss due to another person. The Bible states that iniquity needs to be forgiven. Psalms 66:18 If I regard iniquity in my heart, the Lord will not hear [me]. (Forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us)

I would not expect an all loving God to do this. Can someone give me a explanation?

We live in a fallen world. Sin is now the default.
We are punished for our own sin. We will answer to God for our sin, unless we accept His provision. Jesus Christ. He paid for our sin for us so that we do not have to. God loves you. He wants you in His kingdom. He made a way where there was no way. He wants you back.
He made the way. He only made one way. He made it possible for those of us who love Him and want to spend eternity with Him to come back to Him. In order to take that way, it must be done on His terms. He is God. He gets to be God. He gets to decide the rules.
Humble is a hard thing to be when you don't understand that He loves you. It is easy to be humble when you begin to understand who He is. You become humble the moment that you realize that you are not smarter than God. That God is righteous. That there is a reason for everything ~ and sometimes we do not understand the reasons.
When you realize that this God has the power to create the heavens and the earth, then you begin to realize that He must know a thing or two that we don't know.
It keeps us humble when we realize that He makes up rules to keep us from hurting ourselves and others, that He loves us, that He forgives, that He heals, He is willing to wait for you to come to Him...He is all about saving you....

I would not expect an all loving God to do this. Can someone give me a explanation?

Rom 5:6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.
Rom 5:7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die.
Rom 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
Rom 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

Punishing the children of a person for actions of their parents is something that the Mafia does.

That is because they are cowards. They don't have the backbone to stand up against their peers. They are bullies. It is so much easier to destroy an innocent person, who is not full of the same evil. Bullies never pick on someone as big or bigger than they are.

God is not a bully. Nor is He unjust. He is Holy. A Holy God can not allow sin into Heaven. Think for a moment about what Paradise must be like. No evil, no hate. No wicked people. The people there never do evil things. It is not too hot, not too cold. No sickness, no disease, no suffering. What happens to this picture when you let in one nasty evil ungodly antichrist type person?

 

[Solo]

God doesn't punish the unbelieving. They punish themselves. God provides a way to overcome the eternal damnation of those that do not believe. Individuals choose God's way or their way. Their way is everlasting punishment for their sin. Jesus paid the penalty for all sins to those who choose God's way over their own way.

 

[Relic]

God doesn't punish the unbelieving. They punish themselves. God provides a way to overcome the eternal damnation of those that do not believe. Individuals choose God's way or their way. Their way is everlasting punishment for their sin. Jesus paid the penalty for all sins to those who choose God's way over their own way.

Bingo Solo! :D

Why is it some people just don't get it? They are willing to believe Albert Einstein's Theory of Relativity but they are unwilling to believe God's precautionary measures to avoid sin. Even though some sin appears attractive to the "carnal minded", Sin IS a harmful thing. They just don't get it, do they? Instead they want to ignore the warning of God's Holy Word, and then they wonder, why does God punish? The answer is so simple... If you avoid sin, you will avoid the consequences of sin. But nooooo, they want to do it their own way and play with sin. Then they wonder.... Why is God so hateful, when if fact, unbeknownst to them..... God is loving! He is so loving that He gives us a way to avoid sin, to overcome it. But they say God is hateful because they are now faced with the consequences of choosing unwisely. :-?

They just don't get it, do they? :roll:

If you stand on the falling side of a tree and you refuse to move, you will get crushed. :




.

 

[Gabbylittleangel]

[If you stand on the falling side of a tree and you refuse to move, you will get crushed. :

lemonfresh? TIMBER!

 

[Imagican]

What we have here is one asking questions from a 'carnal' state of heart. These HAVE been VALID questions for one 'seeking' truth. Let's not make light of their 'lack of understanding' but rather offer the understanding that may allow them too, to SEE.

To begin with, there is MUCH that most that have responded to this question have PROVEN through ther responses that they DON'T REALLY understand the answer themselves.

There have been some profound statements made that DO show 'some' understanding though. John made a couple and Mutz. Most of the others are based on 'church' mentality rather than the 'truth'. THAT, my friends, is why it's SO hard for many with a bit of intellegence to FALL for it. Much of what the churches teach is tradition rather than 'truth', 'fairy tales' rather than meat. Sounds good to those with itching ears, but lacking any REAL sustinence. Oh well, most would eat pop tarts and sweety gos if they had their choice.

Adam and Eve KNEW NO evil util their eyes were OPENED. Previous to that ALL that they had learned was GOOD. Hence, the name of the tree..........

And MOST seem to have a really whacked out understanding of sin. What IS sin. NOTHING more, NOTHING less than DISOBEDIENCE or REBELION. Not human sacrifices or DEVIL worship per se, but simply DISOBEDIENCE.

When one comes to this understanding, it is much EASIER to see that the punishment's MAIN detriment is SEPARATION from God. Those that allow sin to separate themselves from God WILL not receive what they COULD were they to ACCEPT the Creator AS their Father and learn THROUGH Love to be obedient to the Father's will. MANY will DIE indeed. And THAT my friends IS a very MAJOR punishment. For how many sit awake at night dwelling on the FEAR of dying? Why? For the thought that once ones physical life ENDS, their life ENDS PERIOD. What a 'scary' thought. So they burn in their hearts EVERYTIME they 'think' about it. For some, the PAIN is unbearable. The older they get, the MORE they think about it and the MORE it scares and HURTS them. Think about it.

MEC

 

[Solo]

More opinion and less scripture from one who believes that Jesus is a created angel. Amazing false doctrine garbage from one who pretends to be spiritual but is a wolf in sheeps clothing.

 

[ikester7579]

What punishment do you see as having been passed on to all humanity from Adam & Eve?

Gen. 3:16 I will greatly increase your pains in childbearing;
with pain you will give birth to children.
Your desire will be for your husband,
and he will rule over you.


Gen. 3: 17 ...Cursed is the ground because of you;
through painful toil you will eat of it
all the days of your life.18 It will produce thorns and thistles for you,
and you will eat the plants of the field. 19 By the sweat of your brow
you will eat your food until you return to the ground,
since from it you were taken; for dust you are and to dust you will return."


Romans 5:12 Wherefore as by one man sin entered into this world and by sin death; and so death passed upon all men

Adam and Eve aren't in paradise anymore being subject to eventual death and so the rest of humanity can't be in paradise either. And now people supposedly need to redeem themselves for something they didn't do.

This is what's called a family curse. They can be broken by prayer. For the Child of God, if they don't know this, they are suppised to get counseling from either their pastor, or a more knowledgable christian. Questions are asked to find out if this is the problem.

For the unsaved, they are just stuck in this. You can read more here: http://search.yahoo.com/search?ei=utf-8&fr=slv8-&p=breaking family curse

This ministry is based around this issue: http://www.larryhuchministries.com/[/url]

 

[mutzrein]

Well that's a new one. Family curse huh. Haven't heard of that before.

 

[Gabbylittleangel]

What we have here is one asking questions from a 'carnal' state of heart. These HAVE been VALID questions for one 'seeking' truth. Let's not make light of their 'lack of understanding' but rather offer the understanding that may allow them too, to SEE.

To begin with, there is MUCH that most that have responded to this question have PROVEN through ther responses that they DON'T REALLY understand the answer themselves.

There have been some profound statements made that DO show 'some' understanding though. John made a couple and Mutz. Most of the others are based on 'church' mentality rather than the 'truth'. THAT, my friends, is why it's SO hard for many with a bit of intellegence to FALL for it. Much of what the churches teach is tradition rather than 'truth', 'fairy tales' rather than meat. Sounds good to those with itching ears, but lacking any REAL sustinence. Oh well, most would eat pop tarts and sweety gos if they had their choice.

Adam and Eve KNEW NO evil util their eyes were OPENED. Previous to that ALL that they had learned was GOOD. Hence, the name of the tree..........

And MOST seem to have a really whacked out understanding of sin. What IS sin. NOTHING more, NOTHING less than DISOBEDIENCE or REBELION. Not human sacrifices or DEVIL worship per se, but simply DISOBEDIENCE.

When one comes to this understanding, it is much EASIER to see that the punishment's MAIN detriment is SEPARATION from God. Those that allow sin to separate themselves from God WILL not receive what they COULD were they to ACCEPT the Creator AS their Father and learn THROUGH Love to be obedient to the Father's will. MANY will DIE indeed. And THAT my friends IS a very MAJOR punishment. For how many sit awake at night dwelling on the FEAR of dying? Why? For the thought that once ones physical life ENDS, their life ENDS PERIOD. What a 'scary' thought. So they burn in their hearts EVERYTIME they 'think' about it. For some, the PAIN is unbearable. The older they get, the MORE they think about it and the MORE it scares and HURTS them. Think about it.

MEC

Imagican;
I am not sure of the point of your post here.
If you think I was in anyway ridiculing a non believer who was seeking answers to some Scriptures that they had a question about, you are so wrong.
Lemonfresh, whoever he or she may be, has been prayed for. Perhaps for the first time in their life. I do hope that you have added your prayer to mine for their salvation. I have also prayed for their understanding about the passage that they questioned, and asked the Lord to help me to respond.
Hopefully, a relationship has begun that will untimately lead them to the cross.

[If you stand on the falling side of a tree and you refuse to move, you will get crushed. :

lemonfresh? TIMBER!

Was a playful statement. Meant to cause lemonfresh to think about what side of the tree they were on.

Whether you agree or disagree with the style of other Christians, I do encourage you to continue your prayers for those who post in this forum, God only knows how He is using us, or cyberspace to reach lost souls.