Addiction is a disease

[th1b.taylor]

I pray this will evoke more thoughtful posts but, in truth, SteveBolts has been allowed to strike a match in the middle of the Ammo Dump.

 

[jasonc]

Jason,
That is the narrow or short term view. This is not about forty or fifty million, this ks about hundreds of billions of already worthless dollar bills and devaluing them further as a result. This is not even a monolithic issue. This ties directly into the education funds for our children, grandchildren and great grandchildren, the funds that, already, underpay our soldiers and police officers and the funds that pay the paltry combat veterans pensions.

This is part of the One World Government movement to realign the Christians and to move the stragglers away from God.

so you don't believe in the first amendment then? the government should be a theocratic state?
http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/cpus13.pdf
I wish people would choose to repent but they cant be made by law to serve. it doesn't work, it didn't work for isreal. the point I was making is that in my state has aa, na in all its prisons and we have the fourth largest prison system in the WORLD. while that link shows California and texas hold more in prison/jail then we do.

1) we also have pride. google it is a work program.http://www.pride-enterprises.org/
2) all prisons have gangs and those that will abuse this stuff to make weapondry
3) those harsh sentences against gangs and so forth doesn't stop the gangs from being run from prison.
4) gangs in jail aren't to be confused with gangs on the street. two different creatures
5) the family isn't even being addressed by the government.(another topic and the government must now include the redefinition of family)
6) since when did the bible say the world by large would follow jesus? I remember Jesus stating that in the days of the son of man it shall be like the days of Noah. that has been the case since He ascended. just look at the Roman empire!
7) im not a futurist. I see the world as always being evil.with some breaks in the tendency but by large the world hasn't changed since the fall. its the people that have been redeemed by the Lord that have salted the world and caused some positive change by large.

 

[stovebolts]

Hello my old Buddy Stove Bolts. I'm glad that you had the courage to start this thread. This is a hot topic to be sure. Lots of differing views and opinions. I haven't counseled hundreds of addicts like some of my fellow counselors, but I've counseled a few. What I see is people who for some reason start experimenting with a variety of drugs. Life is very difficult these days and depression is, for many people a disease that leads to drug abuse.

I used to think that drug abuse was strictly a spiritual fault. But I agree with you my Brother that it has become a difficult disease. Once the continual effects of drugs on the brain, it now becomes a disease. I'm no expert on addictions and drug abuse, but I've seen people who were themselves prior to the use of drugs, become someone completely different.

There have been occasions where a person became very angry at what drugs had destroyed in their lives and health, so they sought spiritual help for deliverance. Those people wanted deliverance much more than they wanted the drugs. They ended up with a strong faith that the minister could deliver them and it happened. There are some wonderful testimonies of folk who, because of our Lord's deliverance power, of folk set free. I must admit though these people are few. Most addicts cannot change what the drugs have stolen from their brains and subconsciously refuse any spiritual help that comes their way.

Disease? Oh yes. The brain has been compromised and is in need for any medical attention that might come down the pike to help restore what drugs has destroyed.

Thank you friend for your well rounded and wise view.
I've mentioned a gal I know who is 30 with an addictive personality. She has taken that same energy and now applies it toward our LORD. She is such an inspiration for me! She has also agreed to be part of the ministry I've put together to reach out to the church teen groups in our area.
I've gotten to know a good handful of the recovering addicts in our hometown this past year. Some of it has been rewarding, and some of it has been disappointing. People think that addiction is simply a behavioral thing. (choice). I wish they could understand it's more than just choice. It's about inner pain and suffering. Some which was self inflicted, but others which was not.

 

[stovebolts]

I pray this will evoke more thoughtful posts but, in truth, SteveBolts has been allowed to strike a match in the middle of the Ammo Dump.

Gary Rick W.
Taylor,
I've tagged Gary in this post, so hopefully both of you will get a chance to read this.
Listen, I don't want to argue about this. Yes, I'm human and yes, I've felt anger in this thread. But I ask that you both please hear me out.
Gary, I posted a few pages back that yes, there is choice involved and I also mentioned that no, I'm not trying to shift responsibility for a behavior and hand addiction off as a disease in order shift personal responsibility. I don't know if you read that or are simply ignoring it. But I get frustrated when you and others dig your heels in and don't address that yes, I AGREE WITH YOU THAT IT IS ABOUT CHOICE AND RESPONSIBILITY. This in no way diminished addiction as a disease.

th1b.taylor says that he was addicted to alcohol, sex and other things. Now, thanks be to God he is on Tramadol which is an opiate in the same family as heroin and it helps him get through his day. He was prescribed this drug to ease the mental pain he experienced with the loss of his friend. If I probed further, I am willing to bet that Mr Taylor had a rough childhood and I would almost put money on it that there was either very little nurturing in his life as a young child or he experience a traumatic experience as a young child. I would also be willing to bet that if we gave Mr. Taylor a brain MRI, it would show reduced white matter in his prefrontal cortex (pfc) and we would find a small OFC because ALL addicts have reduced white matter in the PFC and a small OFC. In addition, all addicts have either reduced dopamine receptors and / or opioid receptors. I want to make this very clear. This is not theory, it is scientific fact which was done on both drug addicts, sex addicts, work addicts, gambling addicts so nobody can blame the state of the mind of drugs.

The OFC is at the core of all emotions and the PFC is what filters an emotional response and gives us rational thoughts. Mr. Taylor has little to no choice in the matter of his nightmares that wake him up in the middle of the night. Simply put, with the reduction in white matter in his PFC, a smaller OFC and the reduction of Opiod receptors (as confirmed by his Tramadol script), he is having a difficult time rationalizing and resolving the traumatic experiences in his life. Prior to his Tramadol prescription, Mr. Taylor sought relief from his emotional pain by self medication (alcohol) and activities that raised his dopamine levels such as sex.

By no fault of Mr. Taylor, he is an addict and requires Tramadol to help him function which increases his quality of life. Tramadol is an opiate and as I stated earlier, opiates block the opioid receptors in the mind which in turn leaves the endorphine suspended between the synaptic circuit, thus producing a feeling of well being, and reduced physical and emotional pain. Tramadol helps Mr. Taylor feel better because it covers his pain. In a mind with more opioid receptors, Mr. Taylor would not need Tramadol because his mind would have enough receptors that the natural flow of endorphins would be sufficient to work through his issue.

I don't have a problem saying that Mr. Taylor has a disease and that he requires medical help. Without the VA, Mr. Taylor would continue to suffer emotionally and so much so, that he probably would have died due to his lifestyle choices of alcohol and sex.

All addicts have reduced white matter in the PFC and a smaller OFC. Studies have shown how this happens, but I'm not going to get into that. Mr. Taylor, your are a lucky man. You've found a medication that is working for you and you've found a woman who will tolerate you. Many addicts don't have either of those privileges and in their quest to self medicate, either die or end up alone in prison.

I doubt you'll hear any of that in any AA meeting. I've stated my agenda. I want to help addicts, but at the state level. I want addiction to be treated for what it is. I want all addicts to get what you received Mr. Taylor. I want them to get the proper medical help. Not jail, and not a box that will be put into the ground.

If your not for me, your against me and frankly, I don't need to have my feathers ruffled.

 

[stovebolts]

In my lifetime I've seen the attack on family values planted, nurtured and come to fruition. Same thing with most things that keep people together. Parents are no longer considered the primary source of proper social education. Our kids are being exposed to diseases through things they shouldn't be doing and when they find themselves in trouble it's buried or ignored because the things they were doing that got them in trouble is defended and applauded as some kind of release from the chains of social restraint that is supposed to make our kids feel better about themselves. Then when they get in trouble it's treated like tabboo and they're shoved into a corner somewhere so nobody notices them.
Don't get me started

Your closer to the truth than you know... In a society with so much, why are there so many anti depressant prescriptions? Why are so many people unhappy? The science behind it is amazing... and it's able to be duplicated. They can create addicts in the lab with both rats and monkeys because addictive personalities are a reflections of environmental stimuli (or lack of) both inside the womb and within the formidable years of a child.

 

[Chopper]

Thank you friend for your well rounded and wise view.
I've mentioned a gal I know who is 30 with an addictive personality. She has taken that same energy and now applies it toward our LORD. She is such an inspiration for me! She has also agreed to be part of the ministry I've put together to reach out to the church teen groups in our area.
I've gotten to know a good handful of the recovering addicts in our hometown this past year. Some of it has been rewarding, and some of it has been disappointing. People think that addiction is simply a behavioral thing. (choice). I wish they could understand it's more than just choice. It's about inner pain and suffering. Some which was self inflicted, but others which was not.

You are welcome Buddy. You have embarked on a great need in your Community and Church. God has blessed you with wisdom that very few have. Don't let critics disturb you. God has personally selected you from when you were in the womb of your mother for such a ministry to those who cannot help themselves out of addiction. May the Mighty Power of God thru the Holy Spirit work miracles thru you to the suffering addicts who have cried out to God for help. He heard their cry and is sending you with wisdom coming, Jesus working alongside you, He will not leave your side as long as you stay in your anointing. Go in Peace, and in the Mighty Power of the Almighty. I believe this is from our Lord.

 

[th1b.taylor]

the state of florida doesn't ban church run aa or na. they wouldn't. we don't want the state to do this stuff as it cant be neutral toward the issues of any religion. if it allow Christians to do this then It must allow muslims and others. if doesn't then it must deny all. or teach a non theistic view of it. the army has a similar policy on sucide. I don't believe in mandating any person to Christian aid. it defeats the purpose. Jesus didn't say go and pass laws to make disciples. he said I will draw men if Im lifted up.

Alright, and living during the end of the End Time, I'm not going to beat my head against a brick wall debating fine points when, essentially, I agree but, here, in this forum, we are to teach and to lead into Christ-like life styles and Christ-like values. In that vein, Jesus would have told the narco and the booze addicts to come unto Him that He might heal them.

If we read the Gospel accounts there is one common denominator all He healed were guilty of... they believed, every one of them. One of my good friends, an English disabled combat veteran is a Christian Missionary, living in Antigua, Guatemala, under the, very, active Fuego Volcano with his German wife. Jeff sees miracles every week in the service there, very much the opposite among the Norte Americanos. If it matters, Jeff is a Charismatic Pentecostal, it should not but it does to some.

These new converts from the perverted form of Catholicism taught there, simply believe and because their faith is strong, God makes it so. For any form of a Christian to teach any other gospel (truth) is for them to stick their finger in the eye of God and the result of such a thing, I never wish to own nor to deserve. and in all the Narco and in all the Booze meetings, sponcered the AAA, taught another gospel, a lie. Leading one to Buddha or to Allah of Islam might get a man straight here on the Earth but they will still die the second death and as a follower of the LORD Jesus, the Christ, I cannot just stand and let them drive off the end of the bridge.

so you don't believe in the first amendment then? the government should be a theocratic state?
http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/cpus13.pdf
I wish people would choose to repent but they cant be made by law to serve. it doesn't work, it didn't work for isreal. the point I was making is that in my state has aa, na in all its prisons and we have the fourth largest prison system in the WORLD. while that link shows California and texas hold more in prison/jail then we do.

1) we also have pride. google it is a work program.http://www.pride-enterprises.org/
2) all prisons have gangs and those that will abuse this stuff to make weapondry
3) those harsh sentences against gangs and so forth doesn't stop the gangs from being run from prison.
4) gangs in jail aren't to be confused with gangs on the street. two different creatures
5) the family isn't even being addressed by the government.(another topic and the government must now include the redefinition of family)
6) since when did the bible say the world by large would follow jesus? I remember Jesus stating that in the days of the son of man it shall be like the days of Noah. that has been the case since He ascended. just look at the Roman empire!
7) im not a futurist. I see the world as always being evil.with some breaks in the tendency but by large the world hasn't changed since the fall. its the people that have been redeemed by the Lord that have salted the world and caused some positive change by large.

Jason,
You're just short of running through the briers down a rabbit trail. Gangs are not the issue at all. Texas, since William Wayne Justice made his ignorant ruling is filthy with Prison Gangs because of it. However, before he made this self defeating judgment against th4e State our penal system had no problem paying for staffing needed, clothing, new units and recidivism was a good deal less because thieves and other criminals do not enjoy working the way I do and, formerly, in prison, they did not have the option to lay on their behinds all day and still receive their three hots and a cot, they had to pay for their interment.

Get a man straight and all the reasons you list are a set of very good reasons to not return to prison. Example; When my mom and dad spanked me, I avoided that as much as I could.

 

[th1b.taylor]

Your closer to the truth than you know... In a society with so much, why are there so many anti depressant prescriptions? Why are so many people unhappy? The science behind it is amazing... and it's able to be duplicated. They can create addicts in the lab with both rats and monkeys because addictive personalities are a reflections of environmental stimuli (or lack of) both inside the womb and within the formidable years of a child.

Steve,
There is one major issue that cannot be escaped here; People are neither rats nor monkeys, God made man in His image and there is nothing like man in all the universe. And except we we reach out to God there is no permenant cure for what ails us at the root of the issues of life.

 

[stovebolts]

Steve,
There is one major issue that cannot be escaped here; People are neither rats nor monkeys, God made man in His image and there is nothing like man in all the universe. And except we we reach out to God there is no permenant cure for what ails us at the root of the issues of life.

Amen brother.
The world needs God and God needs us to be that light which shines His Glory.

I am thankful God created Opium that when used purely and properly, is able to ease your emotional pain. It would be ignorant and cruel of me to say you didn't need Tamenol and all you really needed was Jesus.

May your walk with our Lord grow, and may he provide you that deep inner comfort that only He can provide, to which you already know.

Personally, I need people like you. People who have tasted the goodness of the salvation that only comes from the Lord after a traumatic experience. But I also need you to tell your story of addiction, and how proper medication, in unison with the Lord and your loving, nurturing wife gets you through your struggles of addiction.

 

[th1b.taylor]

Amen brother.
The world needs God and God needs us to be that light which shines His Glory.

I am thankful God created Opium that when used purely and properly, is able to ease your emotional pain. It would be ignorant and cruel of me to say you didn't need Tamenol and all you really needed was Jesus.

May your walk with our Lord grow, and may he provide you that deep inner comfort that only He can provide, to which you already know.

Personally, I need people like you. People who have tasted the goodness of the salvation that only comes from the Lord after a traumatic experience. But I also need you to tell your story of addiction, and how proper medication, in unison with the Lord and your loving, nurturing wife gets you through your struggles of addiction.

I began life disliking Shrinks and people that think like them because I watched my mother make fools of them, over and over but there is a proper place for all things. And I am friends with mine and have offered free web mastering but she has the right thoughts but no follow through, likely protecting her reputation.

She is a smart lady and understands that as long as two men have fought to the death, that PTSD has been an issue. But, as Chopper pointed out, this subject, long ago escaped Pandora's Box and these worms can never be put back into the container. God bless my brother.

 

[stovebolts]

Get a man straight and all the reasons you list are a set of very good reasons to not return to prison. Example; When my mom and dad spanked me, I avoided that as much as I could.

th1b.taylor
God bless you brother and thank you for your last post. I understand where you are coming from and we share a similar experience.

I quoted you from a response you gave Jason because I wanted to bring up a point.
First, I am NOT against spanking a child. In its proper place, it is a valid form of discipline. I want to make that extremely clear so nobody will accuse me of thinking we shouldn't spank kids when they get out of line.

Now then, we are talking about adults. Spanking a child often works because it puts fear into the child and it also presents a consequence to their actions. But it doesn't teach them why what they did was wrong. As parents, we have to teach good behavior and reward for good behavior and we have to explain why something is bad. If we don't praise our children and most of their experience as a child is surrounded by fear and consequence, then they can get fixed ideas engrained in their head. Not only that, but the desire to please their parents diminishes and as they grow into their teen years, the fear of consequences is null and void. In other words, "Go ahead and spank me, I don't care" becomes the prevailing attitude. Consequence no longer is a factor in the behavior of the child or teenager.

Continue this inner attitude, and sending the person to jail or prison doesn't fix the problem. This is also why a drug addict goes through so much self inflicted pain. Consequence is no longer effective and even the knowledge of death doesn't dismay them. Many seek the solitude of the grave...

As children of God, created in His image, we desire love, because God is love and being loved gives us a sense of well being, security and comfort, especially in times of trouble or confusion. A child who doesn't' fear consequences is a child who didn't receive the nurturing and caring love of a God like parent. Because it's in our very nature to seek love, those who didn't get that nurturing from other people (made in God's image) turn to substances and behaviors that mimic or attempt to fill that void. In the case of a drug or alcohol addict, it's not about the consequences, it's about chasing after that feeling that temporarily fills the emptiness inside. The urge to love is so strong, an addict can destroy every aspect of his life for that glimmering moment of peace he receives from his drug of choice. Think back my friend, and tell me if I lie. You know this to be true just as I understand it's truth.

Consequences have their place, but for a child who grew up in a troubled home, or experienced trauma as a young child it's not about the consequences. "Go ahead and spank me, I DON"T CARE". It's not a scream of hatred, it's a cry for love. It's a cry for "I need something, and I don't know what it is, but I feel a need deep down and I'm not getting it from you, but I want it from you so badly."

Love and attention, if a child can't get positive reinforcement from you, he will seek negative reinforcement from you. It's in our nature to love, even somebody like a parent who is incapable of showing us their love. Some call this the root of generational sin, and I don't know that I disagree with them.

grace and peace brother.

 

[stovebolts]

I've never really tried to quit. I've been smoking for 45 years and yes, my lungs are shot. Is it the cigarettes fault or is it mine? Some would have me blame Big Tobacco, but in all honesty, I'm the one who lights every cigarette I smoke. I'm the one paying for the tobacco. (I roll my own) I'm the one making the conscience effort to inhale smoke into my lungs.

It's not a disease. It's a personal choice.
.

You're creating a disease through your addiction. You see, in an odd way, the flowering of the disease is the addiction....In your case it's possibly lung cancer, perhaps emphysema and for sure you've killed brain cells (dopamine receptors).
You behavior is risky and it will cost the non-smoker billions of dollars for the future medical expenses of people like yourself who made the decision to smoke. Should we then say that you shouldn't be treated for cancer or emphysema because of the lifestyle you choose? Like you said, you made your own choice with a full awareness of the consequences for your action.

Try to quit your legal drug of choice. Go ahead, I dare you. I double dare you. Don't you have the will power to quit and you know it. Don't you know that it's taking years off you life? Don't you know that your destroying God's temple? Don't you know that your killing yourself slowly? Or is it that the cigarettes have such a hold on you, you couldn't quit even if you tried? Face it, you can't quit because you don't have the willpower to quit and you deserve lung cancer and emphysema as a consequence for the choices your making. Your weak and have no self control. Your just like the heroin and crack addict... Now I'm speaking your language, because that's how you come across. Where is your empathy? Where is your compassion?

Lets take this one step further. About how many cigarettes do you have right now? Do you know when your going to have your next cigarette? How do you feel when your about to run out and you can't get to the store to get more? Do you spend a lot of time thinking and planning events around your cigarettes?

Back to the issue of choice. If you know that you are at high risk of lung cancer or emphysema and you choose to continue killing yourself with your addiction which you yourself don't have the willpower to quit because it's got such a grip on your life that you don't care that you can't breath right and one day you'll probably be on oxygen, then why in the world should I or any other non smoker have to pay higher premiums for our healthcare to cover your up coming medical expenses? Why shouldn't we just pull your coverage for the lifestyle your choosing? In reality, aren't you really choosing the drug over your own health? Why then do you deserve treatment for your addiction and the impending medical impact it is already having on your life which will get much worse with age and duration of your addiction?

By the way, I'm an ex smoker who smoked over 2 packs a day. I smoked for over 21 years. It was the toughest addiction for me to break.

If I come across harsh, it was only to mirror how I hear you coming across and I am only using this tone to grab your attention. In all honesty, I understand what it takes to quit and I understand the challenges. It's not easy and addiction is real. In my heart, I wish you could quit so you could experience what it's like to breath again and what food really tastes like, and what the world really smells like. I wish you could rid yourself of the time, money and effort you put into your addiction and enjoy the money in ways that could bring you much more satisfaction than any cigarette could ever bring. In all reality, I hope that you can seek the help you need that is readily available to you at any drug store or doctors office and when you ever decide to seek that assistance, I would hope you would think about the other people who struggle with addiction, just like yourself and feel privileged, not entitled that your able to get the help you desperately need... even if your not currently in the place where you see yourself in need enough to help yourself. As an addict, you may never see yourself in need, even with an oxygen tank giving you the much needed oxygen or even smoking through a hold cut in your neck because of cancer in your throat. You have more in common with a crack or heroin addict than you may really know. But in reality, your an addict and your drug of choice is legal and that's really the only difference.

 

[th1b.taylor]

All of this, on the surface, is easy to accept and there is a good deal of truth in your presentation but cold hard fact must, also, be factored in. In neighborhoods such as South Chicago, where Law Enforcement is, absolutely, minimal at many key points in it's history is a great example of the results of the lack of proper Police Coverage and Judicial Punishment.

On the other hand we have Harlem, in NYC. Because the Police were armed with the Stop & Search Policies and guidelines, thousands upon thousands of men and women were saved and Criminals, as defined by law, were prevented or discouraged from following their desired behavior and from murdering other people. Punishment and the threat, thereof, is effective when used, by and large.

 

[Gary]

But in reality, your an addict and your drug of choice is legal and that's really the only difference.

You're right, it is a choice. That's what I've been saying all along.

You have more in common with a crack or heroin addict than you may really know.

This is actually true. But not for the reasons you think.
.

 

[stovebolts]

You're right, it is a choice. That's what I've been saying all along.


This is actually true. But not for the reasons you think.
.

So why would you willingly harm yourself and spend good money on an addiction that is killing you?

But to my point on choice. Why is it so hard for you to choose to stop?

When people bring up the word choice, often the idea that is conjured up is, "do I want cereal or eggs for breakfast". "should I wear the red, or green shirt today". With addiction, the choice isn't so easy and you should understand this. You've been living with this addiction so long, choice hasn't been an option in years. You no longer make the choice to smoke. You smoke when your body tells you it's time to smoke. Wanna make a bet on this? Make the choice to stop smoking for 5 days and then tell me how much of a choice you really have. You see, you don't choose to breath, you just do. You don't choose to yawn when others around you yawn, you just do. In the same way, you no longer make the choice to smoke. You just do. And if you think it's as easy as making a mental choice in the matter, then I'll bet you that you can't make it 5 days. I'll put cold hard money on the table that by day 3 your emotions get the better of you and ability to rationalize and make a healthy choice is out the window and you grab that cigarette quicker than you can say snap crackel and pop.

 

[stovebolts]

All of this, on the surface, is easy to accept and there is a good deal of truth in your presentation but cold hard fact must, also, be factored in. In neighborhoods such as South Chicago, where Law Enforcement is, absolutely, minimal at many key points in it's history is a great example of the results of the lack of proper Police Coverage and Judicial Punishment.

On the other hand we have Harlem, in NYC. Because the Police were armed with the Stop & Search Policies and guidelines, thousands upon thousands of men and women were saved and Criminals, as defined by law, were prevented or discouraged from following their desired behavior and from murdering other people. Punishment and the threat, thereof, is effective when used, by and large.

I agree. Everything has its proper place.

 

[Gary]

So why would you willingly harm yourself and spend good money on an addiction that is killing you?

Because I choose to. And the good money I'm spending is only about $30 a month.
.

 

[stovebolts]

Because I choose to. And the good money I'm spending is only about $30 a month.
.

Now your lying. Prove me wrong. Prove to me that you can make a better choice through your actions. If it's a choice, you should be able to choose the better choice. Have you lost your ability to reason? Isn't your health worth more than $30 a month? Do you want to be on an oxygen tank, or worse yet, get throat cancer and breath out of a tube? Would you then still smoke? You wouldn't be the first one.
You know what else, you could be using that money for charity. Instead, your using it to not only harm yourself, but your adding a burden to our health care system not to mention my medical insurance rates.

 

[jasonc]

tension break.

 

[stovebolts]

haha! Too funny jasonc lol!