again and again i hear this

[Nathan]

I once did the math. If everyone of us discipled one person, then they in turn did the same, it was interesting to see that it was not as far as you would think when the number of disciples was more than there are people on earth.

We think that we have to have big crowds and lots of 'followers' in order to be effective. We get so wrapped up in numbers it's sickening.

Interesting fact that God got very angry when someone once tried to number their people in the OT. Good story to learn a lesson from.

 

[JAG ..]

Maybe I am not understanding your question; scripture is always consistent yet not necessarily directly comparitive. Maybe you can give a further explanation of your questiion?

Hello CWB,

Here is Paul in Ephesians 4:1 - 3
"Be completely humble and gentle; be patient, bearing with one another in love.
Make every effort to keep the unity of the Spirit through the bond of peace."

Here is Paul in Galatians 2:11-14
"When Cephas [the Apostle Peter] came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he stood condemned.For before certain men came from James, he used to eat with the Gentiles. But when they arrived, he began to draw back and separate himself from the Gentiles because he was afraid of those who belonged to the circumcision group. The other Jews joined him in his hypocrisy, so that by their hypocrisy even Barnabas was led astray.

When I saw that they were not acting in line with the truth of the gospel, I said to Cephas [the Apostle Peter] in front of them all, “You are a Jew, yet you live like a Gentile and not like a Jew. How is it, then, that you force Gentiles to follow Jewish customs?
__________________

My question was this:

Was Paul being "completely humble and gentle" and "patient, bearing with one another in love" when he told the Apostle Peter that he was demonstrating hypocrisy, and when he opposed Peter to his face in public in front of them all, and when he said that Peter was in the role of the hypocrite because he was afraid of the circumcision group? My answer is yes, he was ( that is, Paul WAS being "completely humble and gentle and patient and bearing with one another in love etc etc . . . when he said all these things to Peter. Paul spoke the truth. And its impossible to love if you do not speak the truth.

 

[civilwarbuff]

Hello CWB,

Here is Paul in Ephesians 4:1 - 3
"Be completely humble and gentle; be patient, bearing with one another in love.
Make every effort to keep the unity of the Spirit through the bond of peace."

Here is Paul in Galatians 2:11-14
"When Cephas [the Apostle Peter] came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he stood condemned.For before certain men came from James, he used to eat with the Gentiles. But when they arrived, he began to draw back and separate himself from the Gentiles because he was afraid of those who belonged to the circumcision group. The other Jews joined him in his hypocrisy, so that by their hypocrisy even Barnabas was led astray.

When I saw that they were not acting in line with the truth of the gospel, I said to Cephas [the Apostle Peter] in front of them all, “You are a Jew, yet you live like a Gentile and not like a Jew. How is it, then, that you force Gentiles to follow Jewish customs?
__________________

My question was this:

Was Paul being "completely humble and gentle" and "patient, bearing with one another in love" when he told the Apostle Peter that he was demonstrating hypocrisy, and when he opposed Peter to his face in public in front of them all, and when he said that Peter was in the role of the hypocrite because he was afraid of the circumcision group? My answer is yes, he was ( that is, Paul WAS being "completely humble and gentle and patient and bearing with one another in love etc etc . . . when he said all these things to Peter. Paul spoke the truth. And its impossible to love if you do not speak the truth.

Thank you, I understand what you are asking. I don't have a problem with consistency here; after all we don't know exactly how Paul 'confronted' Peter but if Paul was being consistent with his preaching it was most likely not in an accusatory tone/manner.....otherwise Paul would also have to wear the mantle of hypocrite.

 

[JAG ..]

Well, I don't think the unity of the bond of peace means we never confront people. We just have to do it according to our gift and our faith to walk in that gift (thus my own decision to abandon a hope for church I had).

There is confrontation going on right now in this thread. As long as we stay in the fruit of the Spirit we'll be good. Some aren't very good at that (yet) and, frankly, I'm sick of it. But I get it....we're all at our own places with God right now. Unity will not be possible because of that fact. That's the way God has it in this age. There's nothing we can do about it. Accept it and move on.

Jethro,

♦ Good points up there.

♦ I try to keep a sense of humor and mix grins & smiles in with as much love as I can muster up in thread argumentation and/or discussions.

♦ You said you were "sick of it" . . . lol . . . I'm not there yet.

♦ You made a good point about "we're all at our own places with God right now." That's a really astute insight, in my opinion and much appreciated.

♦ Yah. We gotta move on, as you said.

♦ The Christian Church is in an ongoing conversation that, in my view, will stretch out over the millenniums and gradually and very incrementally result in a true unity of the faith. I think of the Human Race and 21st century Christendom as being at Level One and we have dozens and dozens of Levels yet to attain.

♦ I am very glad that the good Lord, in His Wisdom and Sovereignty, gave us the Internet and all our smart-devices so we can dialogue and communicate with each other. We now have the capability to send, for example, Mel Gibson's The Passion Of The Christ to an unsaved acquaintance living in Beijing --- or a link to Bible Gateway. (We can also "jaw back and forth" with each other over doctrinal issues . . . //grin . .)

 

[Nathan]

Jethro,

♦ Good points up there.

♦ I try to keep a sense of humor and mix grins & smiles in with as much love as I can muster up in thread argumentation and/or discussions.

♦ You said you were "sick of it" . . . lol . . . I'm not there yet.

♦ You made a good point about "we're all at our own places with God right now." That's a really astute insight, in my opinion and much appreciated.

♦ Yah. We gotta move on, as you said.

♦ The Christian Church is in an ongoing conversation that, in my view, will stretch out over the millenniums and gradually and very incrementally result in a true unity of the faith. I think of the Human Race and 21st century Christendom as being at Level One and we have dozens and dozens of Levels yet to attain.

♦ I am very glad that the good Lord, in His Wisdom and Sovereignty, gave us the Internet and all our smart-devices so we can dialogue and communicate with each other. We now have the capability to send, for example, Mel Gibson's The Passion Of The Christ to an unsaved acquaintance living in Beijing --- or a link to Bible Gateway. (We can also "jaw back and forth" with each other over doctrinal issues . . . //grin . .)

Personally, I see the 'church' degrading. I think it will do so more and more, and grow worse exponentially. Paul and Jesus referred to it as the great falling away. Sad, but since we know it will/is happening then we can find comfort in knowing God is in control.

 

[JAG ..]

`
Thank you, I understand what you are asking. I don't have a problem with consistency here; after all we don't know exactly how Paul 'confronted' Peter but if Paul was being consistent with his preaching it was most likely not in an accusatory tone/manner.....otherwise Paul would also have to wear the mantle of hypocrite.
`

♦ You're welcome

♦ Agreed, most likely not in an accusatory manner

♦ So no disharmony or inconsistency between Paul in Eph 4 and Paul in Gal 2

♦ But it was a bold public confrontation that was based in truth. (and we can be reasonably certain that Peter stopped being hypocritical regarding the matter of who he ate dinner with

 

[JAG ..]

Personally, I see the 'church' degrading. I think it will do so more and more, and grow worse exponentially. Paul and Jesus referred to it as the great falling away. Sad, but since we know it will/is happening then we can find comfort in knowing God is in control.

Nathan,

I agree with you 100% on your we can know "God is in control."

I am very very optimistic about the future of the Christian Church.

 

[JAG ..]

What now passes for “Christianity” is fragmented into more than 40,000 denominations, a fair percentage of which despise each other and/or do not believe a fair percentage of the others are even Christians.

Runner,

I want to disagree with your statement up there, but I cannot disagree because of your phrase "fair percentage" which can be as little a 1000 people throughout Christendom. Or 500 ?

If your "fair percentage" really means "large percentage" then I do disagree with your statement because I see zero evidence anywhere in the world to demonstrate the notion that large percentages of Christians "despise each other."

Conversely I do see some evidences that the rank and file (the pews) of Christians are becoming more and more tolerant of other members within other Christian denominations. One example: There was a time not all that long ago, when the Roman Catholic Church's official position was very condemning upon Protestant Christians, but Rome came up with Vatican II, and if I recall correctly one of Vatican II's points recognized Protestants as fellow Christians. That was a clear improvement.

And there is certainly a lot of room for more improvement, but . . .

I don't believe Catholics and Protestants despise each other, and Catholics and Protestants make up the vast majority of 21st century Christendom.

 

[reba]

Personally, I see the 'church' degrading. I think it will do so more and more, and grow worse exponentially. Paul and Jesus referred to it as the great falling away. Sad, but since we know it will/is happening then we can find comfort in knowing God is in control.

And all my life i have been taught Jesus is the Victor ..

 

[JAG ..]

The problem seems to be when one person wants to prove their theological
position right and all others wrong; it leaves no room for critical listening and
even acknowledging that another's POV has value and merit

Good point up there, CWB.

Me personally . . .
I enjoy presenting my ideas for other people's consideration far more than I enjoy trying
to prove my positions to be true, or attempting to prove other people's views to be wrong.

We humans do change our minds and our positions, but we have to "see it for ourselves"
and that usually takes a very long time, often years and years before we make any changes
or adjustments in our held-positions.

I remember reading what some writer said about a book he wrote.

It went something like this:

"Don't just swallow what I say uncritically. Think long and hard about it. Let your mind wrestle
with what I present. Just because I am a Christian and have written a book trying to present
the truth as I understand it to be --- does NOT mean that I have nailed it all down solid. I am
merely contributing to the Christian conversation. God has spoken in His word the Bible.
And what we men write is nothing more than commentary."

I really like what I bolded red.
`

 

[JAG ..]

Here is the way I see it. If it was "easy" to love each other
and be "nice" then we wouldn't be told to strive and seek it.
It takes effort on our part to do these things.

That's a very good point to make. Amen to that.

 

[JohnDB]

I tend to believe that we have come a long way since the colonial days in this Nation.

Persecution of other denominations included horsewhipping, tar and feathers, and general beatings.

Nowadays only angry words are exchanged?
A long way indeed.

 

[JAG ..]

That's the misguided premise of this thread, that becoming more
Christ-like is a matter of wearing the proper mask, being "nicer."
The mask always crumbles in less time than it took to put it on,
as it crumbles on every thread on these forums and always will.
This one didn't last 28 posts until the OP was "sorry to hear your
line of thinking."

There isn't a single thing unloving or unkind or not-nice or un-Christian
about saying to somebody, "sorry to hear your line of thinking."

 

[JohnDB]

I tend to believe that we have come a long way since the colonial days in this Nation.

Persecution of other denominations included horsewhipping, tar and feathers, and general beatings.

Nowadays only angry words are exchanged?
A long way indeed.

That isn't to say that we "have arrived"...Not by a long shot.

 

[Papa Zoom]

Hello CWB,

Here is Paul in Ephesians 4:1 - 3
"Be completely humble and gentle; be patient, bearing with one another in love.
Make every effort to keep the unity of the Spirit through the bond of peace."

Here is Paul in Galatians 2:11-14
"When Cephas [the Apostle Peter] came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he stood condemned.For before certain men came from James, he used to eat with the Gentiles. But when they arrived, he began to draw back and separate himself from the Gentiles because he was afraid of those who belonged to the circumcision group. The other Jews joined him in his hypocrisy, so that by their hypocrisy even Barnabas was led astray.

When I saw that they were not acting in line with the truth of the gospel, I said to Cephas [the Apostle Peter] in front of them all, “You are a Jew, yet you live like a Gentile and not like a Jew. How is it, then, that you force Gentiles to follow Jewish customs?
__________________

My question was this:

Was Paul being "completely humble and gentle" and "patient, bearing with one another in love" when he told the Apostle Peter that he was demonstrating hypocrisy, and when he opposed Peter to his face in public in front of them all, and when he said that Peter was in the role of the hypocrite because he was afraid of the circumcision group? My answer is yes, he was ( that is, Paul WAS being "completely humble and gentle and patient and bearing with one another in love etc etc . . . when he said all these things to Peter. Paul spoke the truth. And its impossible to love if you do not speak the truth.

I don't think Paul was being inconsistent. Peter was clearly wrong and likely knew it. He just needed a jolt. Plus there was relationship there to work with. This is especially true with Barnabas and Paul. It was the relationship that allowed for such conversations. I have friends like that. We have sharp disagreements. Never in public (usually at our Men's Bible Study). We like it because we love each other and want to be challenged. But we have relationship. In the end we respect our differences. OTOH, I don't talk with others at the regular Bible Study that way. We don't have that kind of relationship.

When I was younger, I thought I had to fix everyone to believe like I did. Of course! Because I knew what was true and so if I saw what I thought was error, I corrected. Today I know it's not my job. No one has a perfect theology and no one has perfect understanding. We all suffer from seeing through the mirror dimly. We only know in part and even that which we know can be muddied by a myriad of things.

Lastly, face to face is far more effective than a forum. You lose a lot of clues on meaning when not face to face so this forum, while helpful, isn't ideal for communicating fully. I think most would agree with that. Hence, we use smilies to help convey what body language and inflection only can.

 

[Papa Zoom]

The future is bright folks. Because we know who holds the future.

 

[JAG ..]

I don't think Paul was being inconsistent. Peter was clearly wrong and likely knew it. He just needed a jolt. Plus there was relationship there to work with.

I agree totally --- and me thinks that's a good way to put it.

When I was younger, I thought I had to fix everyone to believe like I did. Of course! Because I knew what was true and so if I saw what I thought was error, I corrected. Today I know it's not my job. No one has a perfect theology and no one has perfect understanding. We all suffer from seeing through the mirror dimly. We only know in part and even that which we know can be muddied by a myriad of things.

Wise words.

( By the way, Aging can be our friend --- if it doesn't kill us first . . . lol . . )

Lastly, face to face is far more effective than a forum. You lose a lot of clues on meaning when not face to face so this forum, while helpful, isn't ideal for communicating fully. I think most would agree with that. Hence, we use smilies to help convey what body language and inflection only can.

Yah. I think about that every time I write a lengthy post. I know upfront that I will not be
able to communicate all the nuance within in my mind --- with only words appearing on
white "digital paper" --- but I try to.

 

[Papa Zoom]

I agree totally --- and me thinks that's a good way to put it.
Wise words.

( By the way, Aging can be our friend --- if it doesn't kill us first . . . lol . . )

Yah. I think about that every time I write a lengthy post. I know upfront that I will not be
able to communicate all the nuance within in my mind --- with only words appearing on
white "digital paper" --- but I try to.

Aging is my friend. I'm smarter but I've no energy to use it like when I was young. :/

Sometimes I write like I'm on twitter. Other times like I'm doing a term paper. I always reread what I wrote and am confident I'm being clear. Then when I read the responses I realize it's not as clear to the readers as it is this writer.

 

[reba]

Aging is my friend. I'm smarter but I've no energy to use it like when I was young. :/

Sometimes I write like I'm on twitter. Other times like I'm doing a term paper. I always reread what I wrote and am confident I'm being clear. Then when I read the responses I realize it's not as clear to the readers as it is this writer.

We all have the same problem . Which if the writer will accept his failings, as you have, and the reader give them the chance we woud all do a lot better...

 

[Papa Zoom]

We all have the same problem . Which if the writer will his failings, as you have, and the reader give them the chance we woud all do a lot better...

Yes. I rarely hear, what did you mean by that? Usually they respond to what they heard, not what I said. ;/