Alcohol in Heaven

[LaCrum]

RNC:

I'm not sure why you seem so hostile about this. Because of my Covenant relaltionship with God, I trust that the Holy Spirit will let me know when I'm doing something that isn't pleasing to God. He's done so in the past, and I trust He will do so in the future if I'm praying and reading my Bible regularly. With that being said, I'm sure the Holy Spirit will lead people differently on the issue depending on the individual Christian. You can continue to blame alcohol for evils, but the ultimate responsibility will rest on the person. Wine will not be condemned by Jesus in the Second Coming, man will. If there's no wine in Heaven, great, if there's wine in Heaven, also great. But I have a feeling that when we are in Heaven, we will never again abuse the gifts God has given us, whether that be wine, food, etc .

 

[RND]

RNC:

I'm not sure why you seem so hostile about this.

I'm not hostile to you or anyone that has a differing view about this than I do. I am very firm in the points I wish to make on this because I think the ideas expressed that we can be effective witnesses in bars and pubs should not be considered as a good way to spread the Gospel.

Because of my Covenant relaltionship with God, I trust that the Holy Spirit will let me know when I'm doing something that isn't pleasing to God. He's done so in the past, and I trust He will do so in the future if I'm praying and reading my Bible regularly.

Oh, I have no problem believing that. Have you ever asked God to send the Holy Spirit to you before walking into a nightclub, pub, or bar and lead your steps in this "ministry"?

With that being said, I'm sure the Holy Spirit will lead people differently on the issue depending on the individual Christian.

Oh, I have no doubt about that either I just have my doubts that the Holy Spirit sends people into bars for Bible studies.

You can continue to blame alcohol for evils, but the ultimate responsibility will rest on the person.

Again, this is certainly true yet at the same time each man must turn to the Lord and consider himself by comparing himself to Jesus.

Wine will not be condemned by Jesus in the Second Coming, man will.

Well in that men and women that over imbibe will not see heaven I think we can conclude, in a sense, that wine will be judged.

If there's no wine in Heaven, great, if there's wine in Heaven, also great. But I have a feeling that when we are in Heaven, we will never again abuse the gifts God has given us, whether that be wine, food, etc .

I suspect that when we die and are resurrected on the last day that we will take with us the nature and character's we have developed here on earth. I do not see alcohol consumption or it's attendant behavior in bars, nightclubs or pubs as either conducive to good Bible study or the development of good character. That's just my view.

However, I think it's silly to consider a conversation over a few pints in a bar a Bible study just as much as I would consider a discussion on airplanes over a few pints making me qualified as a pilot! Enjoy.

 

[LaCrum]

I'm not hostile to you or anyone that has a differing view about this than I do. I am very firm in the points I wish to make on this because I think the ideas expressed that we can be effective witnesses in bars and pubs should not be considered as a good way to spread the Gospel.

Being an effective witness sometimes takes no more than showing love and kindness towards one's neighbor. Regardless if the restaurant I'm at serves alcohol or not, me being kind to my waitress and other's around me is witnessing for Christ. There is more than one way to show Christ's love besides preaching to people on street corners.

Oh, I have no problem believing that. Have you ever asked God to send the Holy Spirit to you before walking into a nightclub, pub, or bar and lead your steps in this "ministry"?

I don't really go to nightclubs or bars because I don't like how crowded they are, the sub-par music they play, and I don't like having drinks spilled all over me. So no, that isn't part of my "ministry". Also what isn't part of my ministry is passing judgement on someone for having a drink while out with friends either. Sounds like something the Pharasees would do.

Oh, I have no doubt about that either I just have my doubts that the Holy Spirit sends people into bars for Bible studies.

Well lucky for me I answer to God and not to your legalistic interpretations of the Bible.

Well in that men and women that over imbibe will not see heaven I think we can conclude, in a sense, that wine will be judged.

Actually, no, I don’t come to that conclusion at all. God judges us for what WE DO with what He’s given us, just as we will be judged for how we use our money, spiritual gifts, etc.

I suspect that when we die and are resurrected on the last day that we will take with us the nature and character's we have developed here on earth. I do not see alcohol consumption or it's attendant behavior in bars, nightclubs or pubs as either conducive to good Bible study or the development of good character. That's just my view.

However, I think it's silly to consider a conversation over a few pints in a bar a Bible study just as much as I would consider a discussion on airplanes over a few pints making me qualified as a pilot! Enjoy.

By jumping to the conclusion that we’re going out and behaving as debaucherous drunks while having a Bible Study it doesn’t surprise me that you think that. Not only do you judge my actions but then you infer about the quality and depth of my relationship with God based on the fac that my fellowship with other Christians occurs at a place that isn't "Holy" enough for you. Again, if the Holy Spirit approves it as a place to hang out with ffriends,it's an appropriate place for me to hang out with God as well.

Argue all you want, but the Bible says nothing in reference to moderate consumption of alcohol, only drunkenness. People like to argue that they’re only referring to “grape juice†in all the positive passages about wine and “fermented wine†in all the negative passages about wine. This is not so.

http://bible.org/article/bible-and-alcohol

"Some take the words for wine to mean ‘grape juice.’ If this were so, then why would there be prohibitions against drunkenness? One cannot get drunk on grape juice. Further, Jesus’ first miracle was changing the water into wine at the wedding of Cana in Galilee. He made between 120 and 180 gallons of wine! Even if this had been grape juice, it would soon turn to wine because the fermentation process would immediately begin. But it most certainly was not grape juice: the head waiter in John 2:10 said, “Every man sets out the good wine first, then after the guests have drunk freely, the poor wine. But you have kept the good wine until now.†The verb translated ‘drunk freely’ is almost always used of getting drunk (and is so translated in the NRSV here). In the least, the people at this wedding feast, if not drunk, would certainly be drinking alcohol fairly freely (if not, this verb means something here that is nowhere else attested4). And this makes perfect sense in the context: The reason why a man brings out the poorer wine later is because the good wine has numbed the senses a bit. Grape juice would hardly mask anything. Note also Acts 2:13—â€they are full of sweet wineâ€â€”an inaccurate comment made about the apostles when they began speaking in tongues, as though this explained their unusual behavior. The point is: If they were full of grape juice would this comment even have made any sense at all? That would be like saying, “Well, they’re all acting strange and silly because they have had too much orange juice this morning!â€

There are other references to alcoholic beverages in the Bible: Several times in the first books of the Bible, wine and strong drink are prohibited to those who take a Nazarite vow (cf. Num 6, Judges 13). Even grape juice and fresh and dried grapes (i.e., raisins, as the NIV renders the word) are prohibited to the Nazarite (Numbers 6:3)!5 But that restriction is only for those who make this vow. If someone today wants to claim that believers do not have the right to drink alcohol on the analogy of a Nazarite vow (as some today are fond of doing), they also should say that believers ought not to eat Raisin Bran!
Further, the Bible at times speaks very harshly about becoming enslaved to drink or allowing it to control a person, especially to the point of drunkenness. Proverbs 20:1—“Wine is a mocker, strong drink a brawler, And whoever is intoxicated by it is not wise†(NASB). Cf. also Prov 21:17 (where heavy drinking and gluttony are equally condemned); 1 Sam 1:14; Isa 5:11, 22; 28:1 (drunkenness is condemned); 28:7; 29:9; 56:12; Jer 23:9; 51:7; Joel 3:3. In the New Testament notice: Eph 5:18 (“do not get drunk with wineâ€); 1 Tim 3:3, 8; Titus 1:7 ([elders and deacons ought not be] “addicted to wine or strong drinkâ€); Titus 2:3 (older women, who would serve as role models to the younger ones, must not be addicted to wine). As well, numerous passages use wine or drunkenness in an analogy about God’s wrath, immorality, etc. (cf. Rev. 14:8, 10; 16:19; 17:2; 18:3).

The significance of these negative statements is just this: If this were only grape juice, why would excess in drinking it be condemned? If this were only grape juice, why are certain mental effects attributed to it (cf., e.g., Psalm 60:3)? One can’t have it both ways. You can’t say that wine is always grape juice, for then the negative statements in scripture make no sense; those who say that it is only grape juice tend to focus just on the neutral and positive passages, conveniently allowing them to condemn the drinking of real wine at all times. But even this position is not logical: If the Bible only speaks of grape juice, then it makes no comment about alcoholic wine. And if so, then it does not directly prohibit it. And if we are going to prohibit something that the Bible does not address, why stop at wine? Why don’t we include the ballet, opera, football games, country-western music (actually, I might be in favor of banning this one!), salt water fishing, zippers on clothes, etc. Once legalism infests the soul it doesn’t know where to quit.

In sum, is wine the same as grape juice? No, for if it were, the Bible would hardly condemn the abuse of such. Those who argue that the two are identical simply cannot handle the passages that speak about excess."

 

[Panin]

[

quote="LaCrum"]

I like to include God in all areas of my life, including when I go out to a pub. I’m not one of those Christians who will only compartmentalize God into certain parts of my life; He belongs in all of if.

Well all that is very noble of you, but it has little to do with the topic of discussion IE choosing to have a bible study in a pub. I think God would have better locations, I know I certianly have.

That said, I think you have been very misleading when you say that your church have bible studies in a pub ,when in actual fact it was you and your fiance and friends having fish and chips and beer after church. I have my doubts as to whether you even opened your bibles and I am pretty certian that this was in no away a scheduled regular bible study.

 

[LaCrum]

That said, I think you have been very misleading when you say that your church have bible studies in a pub ,when in actual fact it was you and your fiance and friends having fish and chips and beer after church. I have my doubts as to whether you even opened your bibles and I am pretty certian that this was in no away a scheduled regular bible study.

You are in fact, quite wrong with all your assumptions.

We meet on a weekly basis on Sundays, bring our Bibles, talk about the Bible, and even (gasp!) pray!!!The study is the reason we even get together in the first place. On top of it, our pastor preaches in jeans, a flannel, and has a tattoo!

 

[RND]

Being an effective witness sometimes takes no more than showing love and kindness towards one's neighbor. Regardless if the restaurant I'm at serves alcohol or not, me being kind to my waitress and other's around me is witnessing for Christ. There is more than one way to show Christ's love besides preaching to people on street corners.

If what you say is true, that we only have ti be kind, then there are lots of people that are Christians and didn't know it. Read the end of Matthew 5.

Oh, I have no problem believing that. Have you ever asked God to send the Holy Spirit to you before walking into a nightclub, pub, or bar and lead your steps in this "ministry"?

I don't really go to nightclubs or bars because I don't like how crowded they are, the sub-par music they play, and I don't like having drinks spilled all over me. So no, that isn't part of my "ministry". Also what isn't part of my ministry is passing judgement on someone for having a drink while out with friends either. Sounds like something the Pharasees would do. [/quote] I'm not passing judgment. I simply suggested it probally isn't the best witnessing tool or place for study.

[quote:n745ifeq]Oh, I have no doubt about that either I just have my doubts that the Holy Spirit sends people into bars for Bible studies.

Well lucky for me I answer to God and not to your legalistic interpretations of the Bible. [/quote:n745ifeq] "Legalistic"? I think it's always convenient to throw out charges and terms that have nothing do to with the conversation as a way of masking the poor quality of the argument.

[quote:n745ifeq]Well in that men and women that over imbibe will not see heaven I think we can conclude, in a sense, that wine will be judged.

Actually, no, I don’t come to that conclusion at all. God judges us for what WE DO with what He’s given us, just as we will be judged for how we use our money, spiritual gifts, etc. [/quote:n745ifeq] So you believe God gave us alcoholic beverages do drink and get sauced with? So then we can blame God for all the drunk driving tragedies that have befallen mankind?

[quote:n745ifeq] I suspect that when we die and are resurrected on the last day that we will take with us the nature and character's we have developed here on earth. I do not see alcohol consumption or it's attendant behavior in bars, nightclubs or pubs as either conducive to good Bible study or the development of good character. That's just my view.

However, I think it's silly to consider a conversation over a few pints in a bar a Bible study just as much as I would consider a discussion on airplanes over a few pints making me qualified as a pilot! Enjoy.

By jumping to the conclusion that we’re going out and behaving as debaucherous drunks while having a Bible Study it doesn’t surprise me that you think that. Not only do you judge my actions but then you infer about the quality and depth of my relationship with God based on the fac that my fellowship with other Christians occurs at a place that isn't "Holy" enough for you. Again, if the Holy Spirit approves it as a place to hang out with ffriends,it's an appropriate place for me to hang out with God as well. [/quote:n745ifeq] Trouble is, I don't see establishments for drinking good places for study. Neither I'm sure does the HS.

Argue all you want, but the Bible says nothing in reference to moderate consumption of alcohol, only drunkenness. People like to argue that they’re only referring to “grape juice†in all the positive passages about wine and “fermented wine†in all the negative passages about wine. This is not so.

http://bible.org/article/bible-and-alcohol

I've read your source before and have some serious problems with there understanding and interpretations. From a scholarly standpoint it is seriously lacking.

In sum, is wine the same as grape juice? No, for if it were, the Bible would hardly condemn the abuse of such.

I think the Bible clearly distinguishes the two.

Those who argue that the two are identical simply cannot handle the passages that speak about excess."

Sure they can.

 

[Panin]

That said, I think you have been very misleading when you say that your church have bible studies in a pub ,when in actual fact it was you and your fiance and friends having fish and chips and beer after church. I have my doubts as to whether you even opened your bibles and I am pretty certian that this was in no away a scheduled regular bible study.

You are in fact, quite wrong with all your assumptions.

We meet on a weekly basis on Sundays, bring our Bibles, talk about the Bible, and even (gasp!) pray!!!The study is the reason we even get together in the first place. On top of it, our pastor preaches in jeans, a flannel, and has a tattoo!

Well as I said, your the cool hip funky chrisitians. Have a beer and chips for me next time.

God bless you and merry Christmas.

 

[JohnEboy1983]

Once again I am coming into this way too late, but here is my response to the question. Who ever said the new wine will be alcohol? You are just assuming that because Jesus said he will drink it with us new that it is alcohol, but it may not be.

 

[Radlad72]

There will be no item in Heaven that would be classed as being detrimental to your health. That would inaclude alcohol, caffeine nicotine, etc. You won't find it. Jesus did NOT drink alcoholic wine ever. It is obvious to people who do not drink and don't want to justify drinking.

 

[JohnEboy1983]

Jesus did NOT drink alcoholic wine ever.

I dont necessarily agree. Show me why you believe he never drank fermented wine. In Acts when the apostles were filled with the holy spirit and spoke in tongues some of the men supposed they were drunken with new wine. So if new wine represents freshly squeezed unfermented grape juice, how can one get drunk off it and why would these men say "drunken with new wine"?

 

[turnorburn]

A considerable amount of people use Alcoholic when it should read "Drunk" Then you have "Sodomites" being called gay, It just don't wash, next you have the movement to take bibles out of motel rooms Google thought that one up, or someone put them up to it, on the more stuff page.


turnorburn

 

[RND]

Jesus did NOT drink alcoholic wine ever.

I dont necessarily agree. Show me why you believe he never drank fermented wine.

There is no Bible verse that shows Jesus drinking wine.

In Acts when the apostles were filled with the holy spirit and spoke in tongues some of the men supposed they were drunken with new wine. So if new wine represents freshly squeezed unfermented grape juice, how can one get drunk off it and why would these men say "drunken with new wine"?

Because the translation "new wine" in Acts 2 is basically incorrect. As I posted earlier on this topic the word "gleukos" in the koine Greek means sweet wine, i.e. (properly) must (fresh juice), but used of the more saccharine (and therefore highly inebriating) fermented wine:--new wine.

So the "new wine" in Acts 2:13 is actually referring to fermented wine.

 

[JohnEboy1983]

So the "new wine" in Acts 2:13 is actually referring to fermented wine.

Ok. You just proved my point. And my point being is that the wine that the new testament speaks of is in fact fermented. This church I once went to argued with me saying that the wine in the new testament is not fermented and the only wine that was fermented was the wine Noah drank.

There is no Bible verse that shows Jesus drinking wine.

I suppose you are right, but Jesus did give the wine to his apostles at passover and let them drink in rememberance of him, so the apostles did drink of and Jesus obviously approved it.

 

[RND]

So the "new wine" in Acts 2:13 is actually referring to fermented wine.

Ok. You just proved my point. And my point being is that the wine that the new testament speaks of is in fact fermented.

Actually, I clarified your point, I didn't prove it. There are parts where "new wine" in the Bible is referring to fresh grape juice.

This church I once went to argued with me saying that the wine in the new testament is not fermented and the only wine that was fermented was the wine Noah drank.

There is certainly fermented wine referred to in the Bible, no question. Understanding the context in how it is used I think is important.

[quote:17y87oaf]There is no Bible verse that shows Jesus drinking wine.

I suppose you are right, but Jesus did give the wine to his apostles at passover and let them drink in rememberance of him, so the apostles did drink of and Jesus obviously approved it.[/quote:17y87oaf][/quote] What proof is there in scripture that the wine Jesus passed amongst His disciples was fermented?

Jesus knew what was going to happen that night to him and his disciples as well. Would Jesus want His disciples to be less than they could be that night by having the effects of alcohol in their system? Also, if we consider the wine is representative of Jesus' blood then if that wine was fermented then what we'd be suggesting is that Jesus' blood was tainted with alcohol.

 

[ChevyRodeo]

There is no Bible verse that shows Jesus drinking wine.

Jesus said...

I tell you, I will not drink of this fruit of the vine from now on until that day when I drink it anew with you in my Father's kingdom.

Jesus says he will drink wine in Heaven, with God.

other version

I'll not be drinking wine from this cup again until that new day when I'll drink with you in the kingdom of my Father


Mark 14:25 Verily I say unto you, I will drink no more of the fruit of the vine,


PROOF Jesus had drank wine. And will again.


added

1 Corinthians 11:25 After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.
26 For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do show the Lord's death till he come.

 

[ChevyRodeo]

What proof is there in scripture that the wine Jesus passed amongst His disciples was fermented?

What proof is there in scripture that the wine Jesus passed amongst His disciples was grape juice.

Would Jesus want His disciples to be less than they could be that night by having the effects of alcohol in their system? Also, if we consider the wine is representative of Jesus' blood then if that wine was fermented then what we'd be suggesting is that Jesus' blood was tainted with alcohol.

Alcohol does not work that not, you're not blasted drunk after one sip. Wine was the drink of choice back then, everyone had a high tolerance to it so one cup would have NO effect on them. Today heavy drinkers need more then 4 drinks to even feel a light buzz.

It is incorrect to consider alcohol tainting to the wine since its a NATURAL OCCURRENCE from yeast and sugar.

 

[ChevyRodeo]

There will be no item in Heaven that would be classed as being detrimental to your health. That would inaclude alcohol, caffeine nicotine, etc. You won't find it. Jesus did NOT drink alcoholic wine ever. It is obvious to people who do not drink and don't want to justify drinking.

We will have new bodies in heaven, how do you magically know then new biology of it and we dont?

 

[RND]

There is no Bible verse that shows Jesus drinking wine.

Jesus said...

I tell you, I will not drink of this fruit of the vine from now on until that day when I drink it anew with you in my Father's kingdom.

Jesus says he will drink wine in Heaven, with God.

other version

I'll not be drinking wine from this cup again until that new day when I'll drink with you in the kingdom of my Father


Mark 14:25 Verily I say unto you, I will drink no more of the fruit of the vine,


PROOF Jesus had drank wine. And will again.

There is no proof that He drank or was referring to fermented wine. None.

added

1 Corinthians 11:25 After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.
26 For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do show the Lord's death till he come.

There is no proof that Christ drank or was referring to fermented wine. None.

 

[RND]

What proof is there in scripture that the wine Jesus passed amongst His disciples was fermented?

What proof is there in scripture that the wine Jesus passed amongst His disciples was grape juice.

I take it then that you have no proof that Christ drank fermented wine. Now, what proof is there that Jesus drank grape juice? I would imagine you'd allow logic and common sense to be your guide. Christ was sinless in action, word, and thought. How much more opportunity would He have allowed Satan to cause Him to sin than by drinking alcoholic beverages? If we agree Jesus Christ was fully man then we have to agree that alcohol consumption would effect Him just as it would you or I.

[quote:14ai5lm2]Would Jesus want His disciples to be less than they could be that night by having the effects of alcohol in their system? Also, if we consider the wine is representative of Jesus' blood then if that wine was fermented then what we'd be suggesting is that Jesus' blood was tainted with alcohol.

Alcohol does not work that not, you're not blasted drunk after one sip.[/quote:14ai5lm2] I didn't suggest that. What i suggested that even one alcoholic drink impairs the cognitive human actions.

Wine was the drink of choice back then, everyone had a high tolerance

That seems extremely speculative. Were the humans back then different than we are today?

to it so one cup would have NO effect on them.

Again, highly speculative in my mind.

Today heavy drinkers need more then 4 drinks to even feel a light buzz.

Again, more speculation.

It is incorrect to consider alcohol tainting to the wine since its a NATURAL OCCURRENCE from yeast and sugar.

Why? The fact of the matter is that there were established practices to stop the fermentation process and to preserve juice.

 

[researcher]

There will be no item in Heaven that would be classed as being detrimental to your health. That would inaclude alcohol, caffeine nicotine, etc. You won't find it. Jesus did NOT drink alcoholic wine ever. It is obvious to people who do not drink and don't want to justify drinking.

Proof?