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Alcohol in Heaven

researcher said:
You still haven't brought a verse that says that wine is not alcoholic.
Yes i did.

The verse that talks about John not drinking doesn't say "sweet wine," or "new wine," it says "wine." (No, John did not drink sweet or new wine either)
Oinos was either translated as wine or non-fermented juice. The word new is neos and it means including the comparative neoteros neh-o'-ter-os; a primary word; "new", i.e. (of persons) youthful, or (of things) fresh; figuratively, regenerate:--new, young. Did you get that? Fresh.

It clearly says, "wine" makes you drunk (Eph 5:18).
Yes it does.

So, we still need a verse that says "wine" is not alcoholic.
"New" wine is fresh wine.
As for a concordance.. I have one (actually more than one), and I knew that the word in Acts was different.
Then you shouldn't have used that as an example in my view.

It appears once in the NT. Did you think I was going to give you a freeby without making you work? lol. Not! :)
Oh, so you were just testing me? So you knew that Acts 2:13 wasn't referring to "new wine" but rather alcoholic wine? Wow, that seems a little far-fetched considering your previous post regarding the same verse and your boast. Oh well.

Verse that says that "wine" is not alcoholic?
Look at any verse that includes "new" wine. Neos.
 
RND said:
researcher said:
You still haven't brought a verse that says that wine is not alcoholic.
Yes i did.

The verse that talks about John not drinking doesn't say "sweet wine," or "new wine," it says "wine." (No, John did not drink sweet or new wine either)
Oinos was either translated as wine or non-fermented juice. The word new is neos and it means including the comparative neoteros neh-o'-ter-os; a primary word; "new", i.e. (of persons) youthful, or (of things) fresh; figuratively, regenerate:--new, young. Did you get that? Fresh.

[quote:2y7k660s]It clearly says, "wine" makes you drunk (Eph 5:18).
Yes it does.

So, we still need a verse that says "wine" is not alcoholic.
"New" wine is fresh wine.
As for a concordance.. I have one (actually more than one), and I knew that the word in Acts was different.
Then you shouldn't have used that as an example in my view.

It appears once in the NT. Did you think I was going to give you a freeby without making you work? lol. Not! :)
Oh, so you were just testing me? So you knew that Acts 2:13 wasn't referring to "new wine" but rather alcoholic wine? Wow, that seems a little far-fetched considering your previous post regarding the same verse and your boast. Oh well.

Verse that says that "wine" is not alcoholic?
Look at any verse that includes "new" wine. Neos.[/quote:2y7k660s]

Luk 7:33 For John the Baptist came neither eating bread nor drinking wine; and ye say, He hath a devil.
Luk 7:34 The Son of man is come eating and drinking; and ye say, Behold a gluttonous man, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners!
Luk 7:35 But wisdom is justified of all her children.

Eph 5:18 And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit;

Same Greek word for wine is used in both passages. It does not say it was new (non-alcoholic) wine.

Thus you can get drunk off of the wine they were talking about in Luke 7:33-34...

Unless you have a passage that says "wine does not make you drunk," or something to that effect.
 
researcher said:
Luk 7:33 For John the Baptist came neither eating bread nor drinking wine; and ye say, He hath a devil.
Luk 7:34 The Son of man is come eating and drinking; and ye say, Behold a gluttonous man, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners!
Luk 7:35 But wisdom is justified of all her children.
How many times are we going to go over this verse before it sinks in?

John didn't drink wine, or eat anything that came from the grape vine because John was, by the spirit from before he was born, instructed to live a Nazarite vow. Jesus was derided because they thought he too should have taken the Nazarite vow like John did.

The word "winebibber" is the combination that means simply wine drinker. The word oinos again can either be used for wine or grape juice. Again, I understand these answers won't be satisfactory because you have a drinking habit to justify but these are as close to actual theological understanding as you'll get.

Eph 5:18 And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit;
Right.

Same Greek word for wine is used in both passages. It does not say it was new (non-alcoholic) wine.
That's because oinos can be used for both.

Thus you can get drunk off of the wine they were talking about in Luke 7:33-34...
No, because they weren't talking about wine in the terms of drinking alcoholic beverages but with respect to the Nazarite vow.

Unless you have a passage that says "wine does not make you drunk," or something to that effect.

Personally if I were you I'd do that avatar name some justice and understand a little about that time 2,000 years ago and how grape juice was preserved, how long wine was fermented, the processes for inhibiting fermentation in wine, etc. You might be surprised by what you learn.
 
researcher said:
Jesus was derided because they thought he too should have taken the Nazarite vow like John did.

Where does it say this?
You mean you can't gather that from the text? Let's start with the basics. You do realize and understand John the Baptist was a Nazarite for life right? That means he never ate or drank anything that came from a grape vine. Can we agree on that?
 
RND said:
researcher said:
Jesus was derided because they thought he too should have taken the Nazarite vow like John did.

Where does it say this?
You mean you can't gather that from the text? Let's start with the basics. You do realize and understand John the Baptist was a Nazarite for life right? That means he never ate or drank anything that came from a grape vine. Can we agree on that?

Num 6:1 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
Num 6:2 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, When either man or woman shall separate themselves to vow a vow of a Nazarite, to separate themselves unto the LORD:
Num 6:3 He shall separate himself from wine and strong drink, and shall drink no vinegar of wine, or vinegar of strong drink, neither shall he drink any liquor of grapes, nor eat moist grapes, or dried.
Num 6:4 All the days of his separation shall he eat nothing that is made of the vine tree, from the kernels even to the husk.

Nazarites weren't supposed to drink alcohol. Yes, I have that.
 
researcher said:
Num 6:1 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
Num 6:2 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, When either man or woman shall separate themselves to vow a vow of a Nazarite, to separate themselves unto the LORD:
Num 6:3 He shall separate himself from wine and strong drink, and shall drink no vinegar of wine, or vinegar of strong drink, neither shall he drink any liquor of grapes, nor eat moist grapes, or dried.
Num 6:4 All the days of his separation shall he eat nothing that is made of the vine tree, from the kernels even to the husk.

Nazarites weren't supposed to drink alcohol. Yes, I have that.
Not just drinking wine but having anything associated with anything of the vine tree.

The Pharisees knew this about John and they accused him of having a devil, "For John the Baptist came neither eating bread nor drinking wine; and ye say He hath a devil."

Now when Jesus said, "The Son of man is come eating and drinking " He was referring to the fact that he 1) ate bread and 2) ate and drank the fruit of the vine. For this admission that He did not take the Nazarite vow Jesus was derided. The Pharisees said He was "a gluttonous man" meaning He wasn't on a vow not to eat bread. He was accused of being a drunkard, "winebibber", because He partook in the fruit of the vine. Notice the two distinct type of wine in Numbers 6:3. They derided Him further by saying He was a friend of publicans and sinners, (which He was)! They implication is that no matter who came to the Pharisees, whether it was the virtuous John because of his vowed or the righteous Son of Man the Pharisees would accuse them.

This verse has nothing to do with drinking wine but it has everything to do with the wrong assumptions and stereotypes of the Pharisees.
 
RND said:
researcher said:
Num 6:1 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
Num 6:2 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, When either man or woman shall separate themselves to vow a vow of a Nazarite, to separate themselves unto the LORD:
Num 6:3 He shall separate himself from wine and strong drink, and shall drink no vinegar of wine, or vinegar of strong drink, neither shall he drink any liquor of grapes, nor eat moist grapes, or dried.
Num 6:4 All the days of his separation shall he eat nothing that is made of the vine tree, from the kernels even to the husk.

Nazarites weren't supposed to drink alcohol. Yes, I have that.
Not just drinking wine but having anything associated with anything of the vine tree.

The Pharisees knew this about John and they accused him of having a devil, "For John the Baptist came neither eating bread nor drinking wine; and ye say He hath a devil."

Now when Jesus said, "The Son of man is come eating and drinking " He was referring to the fact that he 1) ate bread and 2) ate and drank the fruit of the vine. For this admission that He did not take the Nazarite vow Jesus was derided. The Pharisees said He was "a gluttonous man" meaning He wasn't on a vow not to eat bread. He was accused of being a drunkard, "winebibber", because He partook in the fruit of the vine. Notice the two distinct type of wine in Numbers 6:3. They derided Him further by saying He was a friend of publicans and sinners, (which He was)! They implication is that no matter who came to the Pharisees, whether it was the virtuous John because of his vowed or the righteous Son of Man the Pharisees would accuse them.

This verse has nothing to do with drinking wine but it has everything to do with the wrong assumptions and stereotypes of the Pharisees.

The wine in Numbers 6:3 is

H3196
???
yayin
yah'-yin
From an unused root meaning to effervesce; wine (as fermented); by implication intoxication: - banqueting, wine, wine [-bibber].

All of the drinking parts of the Nazarite vow had to do with alcohol.
 
"But to what shall I liken this generation? It is like children sitting in the marketplaces and calling to their companions, "and saying:

`We played the flute for you,

And you did not dance;

We mourned to you,

And you did not lament.' "For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, `He has a demon.' "The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, `Look, a glutton and a winebibber, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!' But wisdom is justified by her children." Matthew 11:16-19 (NKJV)

First let us understand that the children represent the Jews, and the companions they speak to represent John the Baptist and Jesus Christ, and their followers. These Jews are infantile in their criticism of John and Jesus, and because the messages that both preach do not appeal to them, they vehemently criticize them by saying the worst they can about them.

Jesus is essentially saying here that God had given the Jews both extremes of personality and manner regarding the Gospel. They had heard the strong call for repentance under the Law from John, who exemplified the Mosiac system by living the life of an ascetic. He renounced the earthly pleasures of life to be a holy man of God. From the other extreme within the realm of holy men, we have Jesus communicating the truth from the standpoint of Him becoming the ultimate fulfillment of the Law, which opened the door to salvation without the legalistic pressures that were necessary before He arrived. John drove; Jesus drew. John thundered the judgment of God; Jesus was the walking revelation of His mercy. But the Jews responded to neither; rather they were like petulant children. They "played the flute" to the stern and solemn message that John preached, but he would not dance. John would not lessen his seriousness, and they all knew that he took the Old Covenant commands more literally and earnestly then they did.

In their fickleness they switched sides when Jesus spoke to them - they insisted that the mournful conditions of legalism and strictness be adhered to by Him. This is exemplified in their criticism of Christ's healing on the Sabbath. However, when they mourned to Him, He did not lament. He would not accept the unhappy legalism without the Spirit which they, themselves, only used for their own purposes. The Law was made for man, and not man for the Law, and Jesus would not allow belief in God to be a system of rules and regulations without a spiritual, emotional relationship with God. There was joy in knowing God, and Jesus promised no person could steal a believer's joy.

To reiterate, it really did not matter which type the Jews were presented with; they simply did not have a heart for God – for they could not discern God in either personage. Not in John, the best man who had ever lived, who represented one who was the closest mankind might come in obeying each jot and tittle in the Law which they claimed to so greatly revere. Nor in Jesus, the God-man who was perfect, but Who also revealed that human pleasures were allowed in the grace of the Gospel, as long as they did not contravene God's perfect will, and that a new era was dawning, in which man would be justified by His perfect sacrifice.

Nevertheless, let us not consider the Jews to be different than any of us because they did not recognize the Messiah. The first believers were Jews; it was from their seed that the truth of Christ was first preached. In fact, for about the first twenty years of the church, a Gentile believer was an oddity. We should understand that the Jews were a microcosm of the world. Only a small percentage of them embraced Christ, even as only a small percentage of the world at large embrace Jesus today. If the Jews had been Scottish, Cherokee, or any other group, the result would have been the same, for as Jesus said in John 7:7 (NKJV) "The world…hates Me because I testify of it that its works are evil." Therein lies the reproach to all mankind, regardless of ethic origin.

One more note regarding the last verse in this Scripture. We read "But wisdom is justified by her children." There is a child – that is, some ramification for everything we do. We are told we reap what we sow, however, crops take time to grow. Sacrifices such as the Nazarite made might not yield an instantaneous response; but there would be fruit in the future. What John the Baptist did and what Jesus did changed the world, but this is seen only in hindsight. The salvation of mankind unfolded from the acts of Jesus Christ. John's ministry, as the "Elijah to come," also played no small role in the unfolding of it. Everything they did for God is now "justified," but this was not clear at the time. We might soberly consider what "children" we are birthing in the world. What will be the ramifications of our actions? What eternal mark will be left on the world as a consequence of our lives?

http://www.pursuingtheword.com/reproach.htm
 
researcher said:
The wine in Numbers 6:3 is

H3196
???
yayin
yah'-yin
From an unused root meaning to effervesce; wine (as fermented); by implication intoxication: - banqueting, wine, wine [-bibber].

All of the drinking parts of the Nazarite vow had to do with alcohol.
Actually there are two distinct types of wine drinking in Num. 6:3.

Num 6:3 He shall separate himself from wine and strong drink, and shall drink no vinegar of wine, or vinegar of strong drink, neither shall he drink any liquor of grapes, nor eat moist grapes, or dried.

1) wine and strong drink, and 2) drink any liquor of grapes. That word "liquor" means "steeped juice." Grape juice in other words.
 
RND said:
researcher said:
The wine in Numbers 6:3 is

H3196
???
yayin
yah'-yin
From an unused root meaning to effervesce; wine (as fermented); by implication intoxication: - banqueting, wine, wine [-bibber].

All of the drinking parts of the Nazarite vow had to do with alcohol.
Actually there are two distinct types of wine drinking in Num. 6:3.

Num 6:3 He shall separate himself from wine and strong drink, and shall drink no vinegar of wine, or vinegar of strong drink, neither shall he drink any liquor of grapes, nor eat moist grapes, or dried.

1) wine and strong drink, and 2) drink any liquor of grapes. That word "liquor" means "steeped juice." Grape juice in other words.

Liquor
H4952
?????
mishrâh
mish-raw'
From H8281 in the sense of loosening; maceration, that is, steeped juice: - liquor.

This is about alcohol. Maceration is a process in wine making. Steeping is used to make alcohol also.

"Maceration is the winemaking process where the phenolic materials of the grape— tannins, coloring agents (anthocyanins) and flavor compounds— are leached from the grape skins, seeds and stems into the must. The term is usually used in reference to wine, but is sometimes used with other drinks, such as pio?unówka, Campari and crème de cassis. It is also the term used to describe the process of steeping unflavored spirit with herbs for making herb-based alcohol like Absinthe."

http://www.goldmedalwine.com/member_ben ... wizard.php
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maceration_(wine)
http://tastesofthevalleys.com/wineterms.html

The intent was clearly that Nazarites (and Israelites) shouldn't be under the influence.

Num 6:3 He shall separate himself from wine and strong drink, and shall drink no vinegar of wine, or vinegar of strong drink, neither shall he drink any liquor of grapes, nor eat moist grapes, or dried.

Lev 10:9 Do not drink wine nor strong drink, thou, nor thy sons with thee, when ye go into the tabernacle of the congregation, lest ye die: it shall be a statute for ever throughout your generations:

Isa 28:1 Woe to the crown of pride, to the drunkards of Ephraim, whose glorious beauty is a fading flower, which are on the head of the fat valleys of them that are overcome with wine!

Isa 28:7 But they also have erred through wine, and through strong drink are out of the way; the priest and the prophet have erred through strong drink, they are swallowed up of wine, they are out of the way through strong drink; they err in vision, they stumble in judgment.

There isn't enough in the Num 6 verses to say God was talking about non-alcoholic consumption. The KJV translators most likely had "liquor" right. It's in keeping with the context.
 
researcher said:
You drink so you have to prove the Bible allows it

If the Bible said, "thou shalt never drink alcohol ever." I probably wouldn't.

But it doesn't. So why abstain from something I enjoy in moderation, and even prophets drank?

To appease the legalists? Lol. Surely not! :rolleyes2

The day you do the miracles of the Old and New Testaments like I do, and God talks to you like he did to the prophets, kings and apostles like he does me, then maybe I'll be concerned. But since God has spoken to me audibly and literally, and I have done the miracles Jesus and the apostles and prophets have done, things which you apparently have never experienced, I can't justify worrying over your mind's (or your denomination's) interpretation of things written in scripture. It would be illogical for a spiritual person to adhere to a non-spiritual person's way of thinking. The two go together like oil an water. :yes :)

Just more of satan's Babaling 'fermented wine of Bablyon' :screwloose Go to any AA metting & tell even these non/christians about your 'satans moderation' fish/hook & see what they tell you!
Perhaps somebody looks up to you for a 'stumbling block' huh? And surely Love of self is seen first? Rom. 14:21

--Elijah
 
researcher said:
RND said:
researcher said:
The wine in Numbers 6:3 is

H3196
???
yayin
yah'-yin
From an unused root meaning to effervesce; wine (as fermented); by implication intoxication: - banqueting, wine, wine [-bibber].

All of the drinking parts of the Nazarite vow had to do with alcohol.
Actually there are two distinct types of wine drinking in Num. 6:3.

Num 6:3 He shall separate himself from wine and strong drink, and shall drink no vinegar of wine, or vinegar of strong drink, neither shall he drink any liquor of grapes, nor eat moist grapes, or dried.

1) wine and strong drink, and 2) drink any liquor of grapes. That word "liquor" means "steeped juice." Grape juice in other words.

Liquor
H4952
?????
mishrâh
mish-raw'
From H8281 in the sense of loosening; maceration, that is, steeped juice: - liquor.

This is about alcohol. Maceration is a process in wine making. Steeping is used to make alcohol also.

"Maceration is the winemaking process where the phenolic materials of the grape— tannins, coloring agents (anthocyanins) and flavor compounds— are leached from the grape skins, seeds and stems into the must. The term is usually used in reference to wine, but is sometimes used with other drinks, such as pio?unówka, Campari and crème de cassis. It is also the term used to describe the process of steeping unflavored spirit with herbs for making herb-based alcohol like Absinthe."

http://www.goldmedalwine.com/member_ben ... wizard.php
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maceration_(wine)
http://tastesofthevalleys.com/wineterms.html

The intent was clearly that Nazarites (and Israelites) shouldn't be under the influence.

Num 6:3 He shall separate himself from wine and strong drink, and shall drink no vinegar of wine, or vinegar of strong drink, neither shall he drink any liquor of grapes, nor eat moist grapes, or dried.

Lev 10:9 Do not drink wine nor strong drink, thou, nor thy sons with thee, when ye go into the tabernacle of the congregation, lest ye die: it shall be a statute for ever throughout your generations:

Isa 28:1 Woe to the crown of pride, to the drunkards of Ephraim, whose glorious beauty is a fading flower, which are on the head of the fat valleys of them that are overcome with wine!

Isa 28:7 But they also have erred through wine, and through strong drink are out of the way; the priest and the prophet have erred through strong drink, they are swallowed up of wine, they are out of the way through strong drink; they err in vision, they stumble in judgment.

There isn't enough in the Num 6 verses to say God was talking about non-alcoholic consumption. The KJV translators most likely had "liquor" right. It's in keeping with the context.
I guess the words "steeped juice" were a little too descriptive.

Macerate means to: "to cause to waste away by or as if by excessive fasting" and is related to the process of making raisins. What you seem to be missing again researcher (lack of research I guess) is that if "liquor of grapes" meant anything other than grape juice then the verse is rendered repetitive and thus inconsequential. For example, for "strong drink" we see that shekar (shay-kawr') is used and it means: an intoxicant, i.e. intensely alcoholic liquor. So we see "wine" and "strong drink" used to denote drinking alcohol.

Mishrah doesn't mean "alcoholic" liquor, shekar does.

I think this goes to a greater understanding frankly about wine and alcohol in the Bible. There is no comparison in this section of Numbers 6 to the easy access today to beer, wine, or vodka every day of the week and from every 7-11 or supermarket as we see in our society today. It's every where and it cannot be shaken. It is far more prevalent and considerably more dangerous than at anytime in earth's history.

I hope we can agree on this point.

Being a drunkard in this history of the Bible was not an easy habit; addiction was unlikely for all but the richest and most powerful and this fits in with the warnings in Proverbs to kings. The easy access to cheap alcohol in our time sharpens the dire warnings of the Bible and makes them much more difficult to ignore.

Addiction is far easier to fall prey to. The dangers of getting behind the wheel, even with just one drink in the system, are the things that shattered families and lives attest to.

In the Nazarite vow any type of product that the grape vine produced was off limits during the period of the vow. This was explained to you and I think you know it. When I explained to you the real meaning behind Luke 7:30-35 you choose instead to divert and focus in inconsequential things quite frankly - "majoring in the minors" I think it's called.

But as I said, nothing I can say will change your mind because you have to justify yourself and your behavior by trying to get scripture to say something it does not.

Jesus never drank alcohol and the scriptures bear this out.
 
Elijah674 said:
researcher said:
You drink so you have to prove the Bible allows it

If the Bible said, "thou shalt never drink alcohol ever." I probably wouldn't.

But it doesn't. So why abstain from something I enjoy in moderation, and even prophets drank?

To appease the legalists? Lol. Surely not! :rolleyes2

The day you do the miracles of the Old and New Testaments like I do, and God talks to you like he did to the prophets, kings and apostles like he does me, then maybe I'll be concerned. But since God has spoken to me audibly and literally, and I have done the miracles Jesus and the apostles and prophets have done, things which you apparently have never experienced, I can't justify worrying over your mind's (or your denomination's) interpretation of things written in scripture. It would be illogical for a spiritual person to adhere to a non-spiritual person's way of thinking. The two go together like oil an water. :yes :)

Just more of satan's Babaling 'fermented wine of Bablyon' :screwloose Go to any AA metting & tell even these non/christians about your 'satans moderation' fish/hook & see what they tell you!
Perhaps somebody looks up to you for a 'stumbling block' huh? And surely Love of self is seen first? Rom. 14:21

--Elijah
Elijah, it kind of reminds me of of the warning in Hosea.

Hsa 4:17 Ephraim [is] joined to idols: let him alone.
 
Elijah here: I am even more concerned with the 'fermentation' of all professed Christianity. (not the Rev. 17:1-5 ones per/say)
The first Death is surely sad, but satan is after ALL for the Second death!

And his junk is all through the ranks of even the Rev. 14:6 professions! :crying

And how one can teach Rev. 18:4 to come out of that 'openly fermitted' stuff into even the trite seen by these ones of Luke 12:47-48 is mind boggeling!
 
Clarity of the pen of Inspiration:

The work of John the Baptist was to exhort the people to prepare the way of the Lord, to make straight in the desert a highway for our God. The angel announced John's mission to Zacharias, saying, "He shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb. And many of the children of Israel shall he turn to the Lord their God. And he shall go before him in the spirit and power of Elias, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared for the Lord." His message was to startle and arouse the people. He was not to associate with men, but wait in the wilderness, and the people were to come to him to hear his message. He was clothed in coarse raiment, such as was customary for the clothing of prophets, and he refused everything that savored of self-indulgence. He lifted up his voice as a trumpet in warning and reproof, and many were converted, and baptized of him in Jordan.

But although John was a messenger of God, not all received his testimony. Many set themselves against him, and strove to counteract his influence. They pointed in scorn to his abstemious life, his simple habits, his coarse garments, and declared that he was a fanatic. They resisted his words because he denounced their hypocrisy with scathing rebukes, and they sought to stir up the people against him by declaring that he set aside their religious ceremonies, and held in contempt their traditions. Nevertheless the Spirit of the Lord was at work upon the hearts of these scorners, convincing them of sin; but they rejected the counsel of God, and in the face of the evidence he had given them to the contrary, declared that John was possessed of a devil. Thus they cut the last link that bound them to heavenly influences, and were left in darkness.

After John had given his message, Jesus began his ministry. He had clothed his divinity with humanity, in order that humanity might touch humanity, and divinity lay hold on the infinite One. He came to reach the people, and to lift them up. He came to represent to them the character of the Father. Wherever he had opportunity, wherever he found a hungry soul, he presented the bread which cometh down from heaven. Worldly position, worldly honor, had no attraction for him, but that which appealed to his heart was a soul thirsting for the water of life. While he rebuked the Pharisees for their hypocrisy, he did not refuse to sit at the table of publicans and sinners, since it afforded him an opportunity of presenting to them lessons of divine truth. Many who thus received a favorable impression of the Saviour were converted after his ascension. Three thousand were converted in a day when the holy Spirit was poured out, and many of them were of those who had listened to Christ's gracious utterances while at the tables of the publicans.

Because of his association with sinners, Jesus was accused of being a glutton and a winebibber; but the very ones who made this charge were themselves the guilty ones. Satan's method of misrepresenting the character of God is to attribute to him his own characteristics, and thus do wicked men falsify the messenger of the Lord. Those who accused Jesus, and who had said that John had a devil, knew that they were bearing false witness; but they were filled with jealousy, because, though they had so long been the acknowledged leaders of the people, they were set aside, and the people thronged to hear the words of another.


So selfish were the Pharisees and teachers, that they did not stop to consider the fact that Jesus was eating with publicans and sinners in order to diffuse the light of heaven to those who sat in darkness. They did not stop to notice that every word dropped by the divine Teacher was as a living seed that should germinate, and bear fruit to the glory of God. They did not realize that every action of his life was fraught with eternal influence that should never lose its force. The Pharisees and rabbis had determined that they would not accept the light given by Christ; and he turned to the common people, who heard him gladly, whose hearts were not fortified against the entrance of his words that give light and understanding unto the simple. Jesus had come to be the Saviour of all,--Jew and Gentile, rich and poor, free and bond. He identified his interest with that of suffering humanity; but when accused of friendship for publicans and sinners, he said: "I am come not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance."

Prompted by pride, prejudice, and hatred, the Pharisees, priests, and rulers rejected the Lord of glory. His mighty works had no softening influence upon their minds; for they hardened their hearts lest they should be converted. When evidence is given that a man is a messenger of the Lord of hosts, that he speaks in God's stead, it is perilous to the soul to reject and despise the message. To turn away from heaven's light and refuse the light-bearer, is to take a course similar to that which Satan took in the courts of heaven when he created rebellion in the ranks of the angels. He misrepresented the character of God, and placed in a false light his gracious commandments. He evaded the truth, and subtly worked to make good appear as evil, and evil as good. He has lost none of his tact, and through his agents, manifests the same diplomacy and skill in evading truth, in creating false issues, in misrepresenting the message and the messenger. Not only do we see his working in the world among those who openly oppose the truth, but also in the church his art is manifested in the divisions and controversies among those who profess to be the children of God.

Whenever the Lord has a special work to do among his people, when he would arouse their minds to contemplate vital truth, Satan will work to divert the mind by introducing minor points of difference, in order that he may create an issue concerning doctrines that are not essential to the understanding of the point in hand, and thus bring about disunion, and distract attention from the essential point. When this occurs, the Lord is at work making impressions upon the hearts of men, concerning that which is necessary to their salvation. Then if Satan can draw the mind away to some unimportant issue, and cause the people to divide on some minor point, so that their hearts are barricaded against light and truth, he exults in malicious triumph. This he has done in the past, and this he purposes to do still, in order that he may cast his hellish shadow between the people and their God, and cut off the light that the Lord would have shine upon his children.

Prompted by pride, prejudice, and hatred, the Pharisees, priests, and rulers rejected the Lord of glory. His mighty works had no softening influence upon their minds; for they hardened their hearts lest they should be converted. When evidence is given that a man is a messenger of the Lord of hosts, that he speaks in God's stead, it is perilous to the soul to reject and despise the message. To turn away from heaven's light and refuse the light-bearer, is to take a course similar to that which Satan took in the courts of heaven when he created rebellion in the ranks of the angels. He misrepresented the character of God, and placed in a false light his gracious commandments. He evaded the truth, and subtly worked to make good appear as evil, and evil as good. He has lost none of his tact, and through his agents, manifests the same diplomacy and skill in evading truth, in creating false issues, in misrepresenting the message and the messenger. Not only do we see his working in the world among those who openly oppose the truth, but also in the church his art is manifested in the divisions and controversies among those who profess to be the children of God.
-- Ellen G. White, The Review and Herald, October 18, 1892
 
I would like to give a lil bit of the light i have on the subject. I know how God expected men to treat the temple, He even told Aaron that he would die if he walked in the Holy of Holies After drinking. i know that sice Jesus sacrificed Himself for me, my body is now the temple. so since God is the same yesterday, today, and forever... You cant roll dice in the temple so you probably shoulnt serve wine there either. one more thing to think about you can drink the wine before it has fermitted . i am an ol' country boy so i knoe a lil about making home made wine
 
RND said:
researcher said:
The wine in Numbers 6:3 is

H3196
???
yayin
yah'-yin
From an unused root meaning to effervesce; wine (as fermented); by implication intoxication: - banqueting, wine, wine [-bibber].

All of the drinking parts of the Nazarite vow had to do with alcohol.
Actually there are two distinct types of wine drinking in Num. 6:3.

Num 6:3 He shall separate himself from wine and strong drink, and shall drink no vinegar of wine, or vinegar of strong drink, neither shall he drink any liquor of grapes, nor eat moist grapes, or dried.

1) wine and strong drink, and 2) drink any liquor of grapes. That word "liquor" means "steeped juice." Grape juice in other words.

researcher said:
Liquor
H4952
?????
mishrâh
mish-raw'
From H8281 in the sense of loosening; maceration, that is, steeped juice: - liquor.

This is about alcohol. Maceration is a process in wine making. Steeping is used to make alcohol also.

"Maceration is the winemaking process where the phenolic materials of the grape— tannins, coloring agents (anthocyanins) and flavor compounds— are leached from the grape skins, seeds and stems into the must. The term is usually used in reference to wine, but is sometimes used with other drinks, such as pio?unówka, Campari and crème de cassis. It is also the term used to describe the process of steeping unflavored spirit with herbs for making herb-based alcohol like Absinthe."

http://www.goldmedalwine.com/member_ben ... wizard.php
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maceration_(wine)
http://tastesofthevalleys.com/wineterms.html

The intent was clearly that Nazarites (and Israelites) shouldn't be under the influence.

Num 6:3 He shall separate himself from wine and strong drink, and shall drink no vinegar of wine, or vinegar of strong drink, neither shall he drink any liquor of grapes, nor eat moist grapes, or dried.

Lev 10:9 Do not drink wine nor strong drink, thou, nor thy sons with thee, when ye go into the tabernacle of the congregation, lest ye die: it shall be a statute for ever throughout your generations:

Isa 28:1 Woe to the crown of pride, to the drunkards of Ephraim, whose glorious beauty is a fading flower, which are on the head of the fat valleys of them that are overcome with wine!

Isa 28:7 But they also have erred through wine, and through strong drink are out of the way; the priest and the prophet have erred through strong drink, they are swallowed up of wine, they are out of the way through strong drink; they err in vision, they stumble in judgment.

There isn't enough in the Num 6 verses to say God was talking about non-alcoholic consumption. The KJV translators most likely had "liquor" right. It's in keeping with the context.
RND said:
I guess the words "steeped juice" were a little too descriptive.

Macerate means to: "to cause to waste away by or as if by excessive fasting" and is related to the process of making raisins. What you seem to be missing again researcher (lack of research I guess) is that if "liquor of grapes" meant anything other than grape juice then the verse is rendered repetitive and thus inconsequential. For example, for "strong drink" we see that shekar (shay-kawr') is used and it means: an intoxicant, i.e. intensely alcoholic liquor. So we see "wine" and "strong drink" used to denote drinking alcohol.

Mishrah doesn't mean "alcoholic" liquor, shekar does.

I think this goes to a greater understanding frankly about wine and alcohol in the Bible. There is no comparison in this section of Numbers 6 to the easy access today to beer, wine, or vodka every day of the week and from every 7-11 or supermarket as we see in our society today. It's every where and it cannot be shaken. It is far more prevalent and considerably more dangerous than at anytime in earth's history.

I hope we can agree on this point.

Being a drunkard in this history of the Bible was not an easy habit; addiction was unlikely for all but the richest and most powerful and this fits in with the warnings in Proverbs to kings. The easy access to cheap alcohol in our time sharpens the dire warnings of the Bible and makes them much more difficult to ignore.

Addiction is far easier to fall prey to. The dangers of getting behind the wheel, even with just one drink in the system, are the things that shattered families and lives attest to.

In the Nazarite vow any type of product that the grape vine produced was off limits during the period of the vow. This was explained to you and I think you know it. When I explained to you the real meaning behind Luke 7:30-35 you choose instead to divert and focus in inconsequential things quite frankly - "majoring in the minors" I think it's called.

But as I said, nothing I can say will change your mind because you have to justify yourself and your behavior by trying to get scripture to say something it does not.

Jesus never drank alcohol and the scriptures bear this out.

False. SDA doctrine.

But as I said, nothing I can say will change your mind because you have to justify yourself and your behavior by trying to get scripture to say something it does not.

False. Attempt to bring into bondage.

1Co 10:23 All things are lawful for me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but all things edify not.

Gal 2:4 And that because of false brethren unawares brought in, who came in privily to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage:
 
researcher said:
RND said:
Jesus never drank alcohol and the scriptures bear this out.

False. SDA doctrine.
researcher, you haven't provided any evidence of any kind that states Jesus drank wine.

[quote:om069fvy]But as I said, nothing I can say will change your mind because you have to justify yourself and your behavior by trying to get scripture to say something it does not.

False. Attempt to bring into bondage. [/quote:om069fvy] You mean you are a 'moderate' alcohol drinker?

1Co 10:23 All things are lawful for me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but all things edify not.
Trouble is that all things aren't lawful for you.

Gal 2:4 And that because of false brethren unawares brought in, who came in privily to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage:
I'd say you are already in bondage to drinking alcohol. You are in denial.
 
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