[__ Science __ ] All bets are off

[Milk-Drops]

Knowing that it couldn't have evoled via a process containing random chance and so few so-called beneficial mutation...it certainly points heavily to an Intelligent deigner.

That isn't what I said. I said we know the nanobot didn't evolve because it doesn't have either DNA or a means to reproduce without intervention.

 

[Barbarian]

Knowing that it couldn't have evoled via a process containing random chance and so few so-called beneficial mutation...

Darwin's discovery was that it doesn't work by chance. It's one of the big reasons that creationists invented "evolutionism"; they were unable to argue effectively against the real theory.

 

[Barbarian]

Barbarian explains:
If information is a miracle by God's intervention, then the laws of nature don't apply. Is it your argument that they are? If so, what is your evidence for it, and why does information always work as the equation predicts?

It's not very convincing to suppose that the existence of natural laws rules out God doing miracles now and again. But remember, God doesn't have to do miracles; He does them to teach us something, not because the world won't work unless He tinkers with it from time to time.

God is perfect, and so the world works perfectly as He intended. That's the nature of God.
If you believe that sort of thing.

Quit with the run around, it was a simple question I asked.

You asked this:

So what mathematic formula do you apply to water being turned into wine by Jesus ?

If you're a Christian, you should know that miracles are not something that science can examine. The supernatural is beyond the reach of science, but (and read carefully, this time) science does not deny the existence of miracles.

Are you informed enough to answer Barb ?

I don't know how to make it any simpler for you. You're asking science to do something that it cannot do. Science can't say anything about miracles.

But scientists can. If this puzzles you, let me know, and we'll go back a few steps.

 

[brujaq]

So you're saying ''God did it'' .. I agree .. atta boy Barb ..

 

[Barbarian]

(Barbarian notes that God does most things by natural means in this world, but sometimes does a miracle.)

So you're saying ''God did it'' .. I agree .. atta boy Barb .

For a Christian, whether He does it by nature, or by a miracle, is not the point. Divine Providence is not limited to our expectations of Him. But I can see why that might be hard for some people to understand.

 

[brujaq]

You chase your own tail Barb, I'll stay grounded in the Word beginning Genesis 1 ..

 

[Free]

Make sure you all play nice.

 

[brujaq]

I'm having a ball and I'm sure Barb is too, he's an intelligent guy ..

 

[Barbarian]

You chase your own tail Barb, I'll stay grounded in the Word beginning Genesis 1 ..

The good thing is that even if you're a creationist, you won't go to hell for being one. It's not a salvation issue. There are decent and God-loving Christians all sides of Genesis interpretations. Yours, as far as salvation is concerned, is no worse than anyone else's.

 

[brujaq]

Well I certainly don't start out calling God mistaken beginning the first chapter of his book .. You ?

 

[Cygnus]

That isn't what I said. I said we know the nanobot didn't evolve because it doesn't have either DNA or a means to reproduce without intervention.

Wouldn't the same be true for an organelle?

 

[Cygnus]

Darwin's discovery was that it doesn't work by chance. It's one of the big reasons that creationists invented "evolutionism"; they were unable to argue effectively against the real theory.

So, your saying mutations are directed where and how to change the DNA code? Interesting concept.

 

[Cygnus]

The good thing is that even if you're a creationist, you won't go to hell for being one. It's not a salvation issue. There are decent and God-loving Christians all sides of Genesis interpretations. Yours, as far as salvation is concerned, is no worse than anyone else's.

Problem is, if you're an evolutionist...there is way to much bible you need to change. Down to the point of where human sin nature came from...and the need for Christ Jesus.

 

[Milk-Drops]

Wouldn't the same be true for an organelle?

No because organelles are reproduced through sexual reproduction.

 

[Cygnus]

No because organelles are reproduced through sexual reproduction.

Then how did they evolve?


DNA, that is the code with in it...causes atoms to form molecules within a living body.
The DNA codes for the molecules to group and form amino acids.
The amino acids join together and form proteins according to the direction of the DNA.
The proteins are instructed by DNA how to precisely fold, group together with other folded proteins and create organelle.

This process happens within a cell numerous times. In some cases the organelle form an assembly line coded for by the DNA. This multiple stage series process must all work in harmony with the previous and next stage for the desired outcome to happen.
Many times the product of one assembly line is joined precisely with the product of another assembly line to achieve a purpose.

How does evolution account for the information within the DNA code to gradually evolve through a process of natural selection and random chance and form extremely complex systems contained within a cell?

 

[Milk-Drops]

Then how did they evolve?

I don't personally know, but it doesn't mean God did it. It means we need more research into their origins.

DNA, that is the code with in it...causes atoms to form molecules within a living body.

DNA doesn't cause atoms to form molucules. It just directs the cell on how to use the resources at hand.

The DNA codes for the molecules to group and form amino acids.
The amino acids join together and form proteins according to the direction of the DNA.

Correct.

The proteins are instructed by DNA how to precisely fold, group together with other folded proteins and create organelle.

Yes.

This process happens within a cell numerous times. In some cases the organelle form an assembly line coded for by the DNA. This multiple stage series process must all work in harmony with the previous and next stage for the desired outcome to happen.
Many times the product of one assembly line is joined precisely with the product of another assembly line to achieve a purpose.

How does evolution account for the information within the DNA code to gradually evolve through a process of natural selection and random chance and form extremely complex systems contained within a cell?

Well organisms that don't have functioning systems die. That is how the theory of evolution explains how the mistakes are removed. You have to remember that the current state is after billions of years of modification. What is effeciant now may not look efficient in another billion years.

 

[Cygnus]

I don't personally know, but it doesn't mean God did it. It means we need more research into their origins.

Perhaps the "science of the gaps" will someday in the far distant future figure it all out....but I doubt it. I'll stand with God.

 

[Barbarian]

Problem is, if you're an evolutionist...there is way to much bible you need to change.

There's no need to change it, since the Bible is completely compatible with evolution. It would have to be; they were both made by the same Person.

Down to the point of where human sin nature came from...

Adam and Eve disobeyed God. No problem for evolution there, either.

and the need for Christ Jesus.

Which is also consistent with evolution.

 

[Barbarian]

Then how did they evolve?

Mutation and natural selection. Would you like to see the evidence for the evolution of cell organelles?

How does evolution account for the information within the DNA code to gradually evolve through a process of natural selection and random chance and form extremely complex systems contained within a cell?

The simplest cells are not at all like complex eukaryotic cells. And those simple cells are likely much more complex than the first cells.

But you've lost focus. Evolution is not about the way life began. It's about how populations change over time.

Darwin, for example, just supposed that God created the first organisms.

 

[Milk-Drops]

Perhaps the "science of the gaps" will someday in the far distant future figure it all out....but I doubt it. I'll stand with God.

IF you want to believe God did it, ok I'm fine with that. I'm not sure what you are getting at with science of the gaps. Science is an ever ongoing process of research. Its a method, not an all encompassing answer book. :p