[__ Science __ ] All bets are off

[Cygnus]

what is information?

Is that a serious question?

Lets say part of information in this case with DNA is the instructions contained within the DNA code.....and the ability to have the code read an acted upon.

Now, it's your job in your next post to blur the issue even further.

 

[brujaq]

Here is the issue. The concept of Kind is way too vague and "information" doesn't explain anything since it seems to just be a stop gap to explain away inconsistencies.

In the theory of evolution I can use to the Hardy Weinberg Equation to see the changes in allele frequencies in a population of organisms and test each generation that is observed to track what genes are being expressed. I can get genetic samples of members of separate populations and compare and tack their lineages to see what genes and alleles are arising and what genes are being weeded out. That is evolution. I know Inteligent design makes an arbitrary distinction between macro and micro and uses kinds Baraminology instead of taxonomy and phylogeny. My issue is that when checking genetics, taxonomy, and homology the findings are consistent and lead to the tree that Darwin pointed out that showed relations between all organisms. With the current models paleontologists have used the information to find and predict what we should find in the fossil record and where we should find them. Nothing has ever been found with intelligent design, its mostly just commentary on what we do find, and also all the misrepresenting people with little to no scientific accreditation as Doctors or masters is also very troubling.

I have been accused of being dogmatic and religious with accepting the current theories of Common Decent and Evolution and also dogmatic for accepting the fields of Taxonomy and genetics, yet the reasons I support these is not because I unquestionable follow them, but because they work. I have yet to see intelligent design make any prediction or hypothesis that helped expand human knowledge, only attempts to tear down what others have found.

That is why I don't accept Intelligent design. I'm open to the idea of a god existing and possibly creating the universe and everything in it, but I have yet to see a theory that actually demonstrates that.

You just don't understand science MD, ever heard of Y-Chromosome Adam and Mitochondrial-Eve , the population bottlenecks at the time of post Noah flood ? The reasonable population growth rate we should expect and where we're at now ..

 

[Milk-Drops]

Is that a serious question?

Yep, when constructing a theory you have to explain your terms. You are using "information" to explain the changing in organism. That means you need to define what "information" is.

Lets say part of information in this case with DNA is the instructions contained within the DNA code.....and the ability to have the code read an acted upon.

Now, it's your job in your next post to blur the issue even further.

Excuse me? I don't know what you mean by blurring the issue, I have been asking you guys questions and I keep getting the run around.

 

[Milk-Drops]

You just don't understand science MD,

Yes I do and my college degree says so. Insulting me isn't refuting me, tackle my arguments or I'll report you for personal sniping. So far you haven't demonstrated that you know enough about the biology you are trying to comment on. You are good at testimonials, but that is legitimately not science.

 

[brujaq]

Yes I do and my college degree says so. Insulting me isn't refuting me, tackle my arguments or I'll report you for personal sniping. So far you haven't demonstrated that you know enough about the biology you are trying to comment on. You are good at testimonials, but that is legitimately not science.

Sorry I hit a post button before I could finish , and I hope you're not still making payments on your college loan, not an insult I'm serious

 

[Milk-Drops]

Sorry I hit a post button before I could finish , and I hope you're not still making payments on your college loan, not an insult I'm serious

I'll be paying on them until I'm dead like most in my generation. I understand how science works and I have been explaining since the first page why your testimonials aren't admissible as facts in science. Just because I don't accept Intelligent design doesn't mean I don'r understand science. All it means is i disagree with the current model. You may not like the current model of the theory of evolution, but its still the best model we have that uses the known evidence. You can think its wrong, but that doesn't mean it isn't science.

Currently the Intelligent Design "Theory" lacks the frame work to even be a theory on its own. Even if Evolution was proven wrong tomorrow, Intelligent Design wouldn't be a valid theory because it has no predictive or testable data to work with. It is currently just a presupposition frame work.

 

[brujaq]

Ha, I think when Trump gets rolling he'll do something about that student loan scam thousands have fallen victim to, I've heard he wants to do something when he can, my oldest son will be paying a while too .. You accused me of posting a same testimony twice , I didn't but let it go, it's all good .. You tell me how the first cell formed and life begin, you can't .. I can !!!
Still waiting on your comment from Y-Adam and M-Eve ..

 

[Milk-Drops]

Ha, I think when Trump gets rolling he'll do something about that student loan scam thousands have fallen victim to, I've heard he wants to do something when he can, my oldest son will be paying a while too .. You accused me of posting a same testimony twice , I didn't but let it go, it's all good .. You tell me how the first cell formed and life begin, you can't .. I can !!!
Still waiting on your comment from Y-Adam and M-Eve ..

You believe to know how the first cell formed and I just don't buy the creation story from the Bible. That is it. Its not integral to my world view.

 

[brujaq]

You believe to know how the first cell formed and I just don't buy the creation story from the Bible. That is it. Its not integral to my world view.

I know that I know that I know, there are signs that follow those who believe .. What do you have ? And when are you going to humble yourself to find out . What do you have to lose Bro except useless pride like I once had .

 

[Milk-Drops]

I know that I know that I know, there are signs that follow those who believe .. What do you have ? And when are you going to humble yourself to find out . What do you have to lose Bro except useless pride like I once had .

I was a Christian for the first 20 years of my life and even considered going to seminary. The more I looked into it the less I believed it. I attended youth groups, read the Bible several times, but let's just say that trying to both pray serious Depression and the gay away and a church atmosphere that ignores that it's not helping nudged me to start investigating else where. My current position is that I have come to terms by not knowing all the answers and being open to the concept of God, but that I don't believe Christianity has it correct.

 

[brujaq]

God bless you Bro, I thought I felt a connection some how with you . When I first believed, being a Christian was nothing like I imagined. I always thought that once I committed I had to become perfect like all the other Christians I thought I was seeing, within the first month I was so worn out trying to be like what I thought a Christian was, even praying ''Lord why ain't I like these other church folks'' I took some depression pills (Elevil) ended up drinking a little wine and ended up with 2 wreckless drivings within 45 minutes getting thrown out of several bars and ended up in jail , the second charge going up mainstreet backwards as fast as the ranchero would go .. It took me years to figure out the reality of actually recognizing Jesus active role in my life, I thought in terms of ''if I be good and do this then God must do that'' works oriented quid pro quo . That was not Jesus idea, but mine and I'm not Lord he is I eventually found out .. There are many prejudice in all men and in the church but there is a denomination where you can fit in and grow but never compromise against the Word, rather humble yourself and seek forgiveness until you master your shortcomings with prayer and the Word , sometimes it is a process and a great fight .. Any way I love you friend and pray with all my heart you allow God a second chance . What a great testimony you have waiting for others and true purpose of life in Christ .. I've gotten burned out a few times running ahead without Jesus . Don't listen to your mind if it tells you you hate, it is a liar where bad spirits can lie to you but confess with your mouth what your heart tells you what to know is true . Nothing will befall you except that which is common to man . So many think they hate God but it is impossible to serve two masters , you know this . That it is a choice what you believe and theres been times I had thoughts I hated God because I couldn't get my way, my lusts, but at the same time I loved and recognized his Word as Truth . Go figure .. I'm not a minister but I've ministered to many folks that evil spirits had tormented them with ungodly thoughts, absolutely normal for some and there is relief in knowing you have an enemy of your soul and real and so is testimony . God bless you friend .. And if you have a change of heart, prepare for a mighty battle and spiritual warfare for your mind . No need to respond , just a message from me to you Bro . We'll do more battle later .. I do love you in Jesus ..

 

[Cygnus]

I'll be paying on them until I'm dead like most in my generation. I understand how science works and I have been explaining since the first page why your testimonials aren't admissible as facts in science. Just because I don't accept Intelligent design doesn't mean I don'r understand science. All it means is i disagree with the current model. You may not like the current model of the theory of evolution, but its still the best model we have that uses the known evidence. You can think its wrong, but that doesn't mean it isn't science.

Currently the Intelligent Design "Theory" lacks the frame work to even be a theory on its own. Even if Evolution was proven wrong tomorrow, Intelligent Design wouldn't be a valid theory because it has no predictive or testable data to work with. It is currently just a presupposition frame work.

intresting concept. You said.."You may not like the current model of the theory of evolution, but its still the best model we have that uses the known evidence." Then you put down Intelligent Design.

lets ask, How did this nano-robot evolve?

We know it didn't evolve. Intelligent design was employed.

How did this Motor protein evolve?

Once again we know it didn't evolve.

 

[Barbarian]

(Milk asks what information is)

Is that a serious question?

It's an important question when you want to talk about what it means in terms of biology messaging of any kind. Almost no one know what it really is. But it's expressed mathematically.

Lets say part of information in this case with DNA is the instructions contained within the DNA code.

Wrong. It's the degree of uncertainty in a message. For example, if you are completely certain of the content of a message, it has an information of zero, since you knew exactly what it was to be. To the degree that you are not sure, that is information.

Let's put it into genetics. Let's say a population of organisms has two alleles for one particular gene locus. Both are at a frequency of 0.5 in the population (both 50%). So the information in that population, for that gene is:

Where H is the entropy (information) and pi is the probability of each allele. So the information in this population would be slightly more than 0.3. That's how information works.

....and the ability to have the code read an acted upon.

Wrong. Has nothing to do with usefulness or ability to do anything with the information.

Now, it's your job in your next post to blur the issue even further.

If you don't get this, you don't get information.

 

[Milk-Drops]

intresting concept. You said.."You may not like the current model of the theory of evolution, but its still the best model we have that uses the known evidence." Then you put down Intelligent Design.

lets ask, How did this nano-robot evolve?

We know it didn't evolve. Intelligent design was employed.

We know it didn't evolve because its an inorganic robot that

How did this Motor protein evolve?

Once again we know it didn't evolve.

I don't personally know, but that doesn't mean it was designed. Not knowing how something originated doesn't imply a god did it.

 

[Cygnus]

We know it didn't evolve because its an inorganic robot that

I don't personally know, but that doesn't mean it was designed. Not knowing how something originated doesn't imply a god did it.

Knowing that it couldn't have evoled via a process containing random chance and so few so-called beneficial mutation...it certainly points heavily to an Intelligent deigner.

 

[brujaq]

(Milk asks what information is)



It's an important question when you want to talk about what it means in terms of biology messaging of any kind. Almost no one know what it really is. But it's expressed mathematically.



Wrong. It's the degree of uncertainty in a message. For example, if you are completely certain of the content of a message, it has an information of zero, since you knew exactly what it was to be. To the degree that you are not sure, that is information.

Let's put it into genetics. Let's say a population of organisms has two alleles for one particular gene locus. Both are at a frequency of 0.5 in the population (both 50%). So the information in that population, for that gene is:

Where H is the entropy (information) and pi is the probability of each allele. So the information in this population would be slightly more than 0.3. That's how information works.



Wrong. Has nothing to do with usefulness or ability to do anything with the information.



If you don't get this, you don't get information.

OOFLUYTASRLEHI

 

[Barbarian]

OOFLUYTASRLEHI

Perfect example of a high-information message. I'm not being sarcastic. Because of the very high uncertainty in your message, it takes a relatively high number of bits to encode it.

On the other hand, if you had written "I DO NOT UNDERSTAND THIS" that would be an example of relatively low information in a message, and it would take many fewer bits. Do you see why?

 

[brujaq]

Perfect example of a high-information message. I'm not being sarcastic. Because of the very high uncertainty in your message, it takes a relatively high number of bits to encode it.

On the other hand, if you had written "I DO NOT UNDERSTAND THIS" that would be an example of relatively low information in a message, and it would take many fewer bits. Do you see why?

So what mathematic formula do you apply to water being turned into wine by Jesus ? If you believe that sort of thing ..

 

[Barbarian]

So what mathematic formula do you apply to water being turned into wine by Jesus ?

If information is a miracle by God's intervention, then the laws of nature don't apply. Is it your argument that they are? If so, what is your evidence for it, and why does information always work as the equation predicts?

It's not very convincing to suppose that the existence of natural laws rules out God doing miracles now and again. But remember, God doesn't have to do miracles; He does them to teach us something, not because the world won't work unless He tinkers with it from time to time.

God is perfect, and so the world works perfectly as He intended. That's the nature of God.
If you believe that sort of thing.

 

[brujaq]

Quit with the run around, it was a simple question I asked.. Are you informed enough to answer Barb ?