All Israel Saved

[RBDERRICK]

We both have our own understandings and will just have to work them out for ourselves and see how it all plays out in the end.

This is true to a degree. Differing opinions and even strong disagreement is not wrong in itself.

In fact strong dispute in Scripture is what the apostles and men like Apollos did on a near daily basis. We are called upon to correct one another with honest handling of the words of God.

When I am corrected, I now have a better understanding of the teaching. And when I am able to correct someone else, I still get a better understanding of doctrine and prophecy.

In our case, I have learned something new by seeing an end to the debate about number of resurrections of the dead.

The very fact of the rapture includes both resurrected dead saints and changed living saints, shows without doubt there cannot possibly be only one resurrection of all people on earth. Simply because the first resurrection is alongside changed living saints on earth. Not to mention the man Jesus has already risen from the dead.

I do have a strict rule of interpretation: if by repeating the words alone without comment, and it must be symbolic, such as Rev 12:1-4, 17:1-6 then it is. If by repeating the words alone, and it doesn't have to be symbolic, then it's not, such as Rev 1:9-18, 19:11-21.

Part 2 of the rule is that a piece of prophecy being symbolic, does not make the whole prophecy symbolic. Such as the sword proceeding out of the Lord's mouth does not mean His meeting with John on Patmos, and His ruling over nations is only symbolic. He met with John on Patmos exactly as described, and He will smite the nations and rule them with rod of iron at His second coming.

Whether the spirit of His mouth actually looks like a sword, or only cuts like one, then so be it. I'm open to both.

The important thing is to be ready now for His return, nobody knows. Keep your candle burning.

Absolutely. Debating prophecy is one thing, but so long as it does not include false doctrine of another gospel than that of the apostles, then it should not at all interfere with Christian fellowship.

We only refuse company with them, whose faith includes doing unrighteous works of the flesh. (1 Cor 5:11)

I see no such case of that here. God bless you.

 

[for_his_glory]

This is true to a degree. Differing opinions and even strong disagreement is not wrong in itself.

In fact strong dispute in Scripture is what the apostles and men like Apollos did on a near daily basis. We are called upon to correct one another with honest handling of the words of God.

When I am corrected, I now have a better understanding of the teaching. And when I am able to correct someone else, I still get a better understanding of doctrine and prophecy.

In our case, I have learned something new by seeing an end to the debate about number of resurrections of the dead.

The very fact of the rapture includes both resurrected dead saints and changed living saints, shows without doubt there cannot possibly be only one resurrection of all people on earth. Simply because the first resurrection is alongside changed living saints on earth. Not to mention the man Jesus has already risen from the dead.

I do have a strict rule of interpretation: if by repeating the words alone without comment, and it must be symbolic, such as Rev 12:1-4, 17:1-6 then it is. If by repeating the words alone, and it doesn't have to be symbolic, then it's not, such as Rev 1:9-18, 19:11-21.

Part 2 of the rule is that a piece of prophecy being symbolic, does not make the whole prophecy symbolic. Such as the sword proceeding out of the Lord's mouth does not mean His meeting with John on Patmos, and His ruling over nations is only symbolic. He met with John on Patmos exactly as described, and He will smite the nations and rule them with rod of iron at His second coming.

Whether the spirit of His mouth actually looks like a sword, or only cuts like one, then so be it. I'm open to both.

Absolutely. Debating prophecy is one thing, but so long as it does not include false doctrine of another gospel than that of the apostles, then it should not at all interfere with Christian fellowship.

We only refuse company with them, whose faith includes doing unrighteous works of the flesh. (1 Cor 5:11)

I see no such case of that here. God bless you.

We might have strayed off topic somewhat so I want to keep this on topic as it's not about the Rapture or the resurrection of the saints, but about all of Israel being saved, even though I would like to discuss those two topics with you if you feel moved to start a new thread on those two topics please tag me.

When studying the history of the twelve tribes of Israel being the sons of Jacob/Israel we find from 1047 B.C. and 931 B.C. the twelve tribes were under the leadership of three Kings, Saul, David and Solomon. Near the end of Solomon's reign he fell into idolatry and God spoke of tearing apart the Kingdom as judgment for these sins, 1 Kings11:10-12.

After Solomon's death his son Rehoboam became King and those ten Northern tribes (Israel/Ephraim) rebelled against King Rehoboam and followed after Jeroboam up North causing a division of the north and south Kingdom. Only the tribe of Judah (Judah) and the tribe of Benjamin(Judah) stayed Loyal to King Rehoboam in the southern Kingdom for they kept Gods commandments as they knew David was the lineage of the promised Messiah as it was prophesied of the prophets of God. For almost two centuries the two Kingdoms where divided, but a remnant of the ten tribes soon came back to Judah after following Jeroboam as heturned the northern Kingdom into idol worshipers.

This is the importance of the 144,000 of the house of Israel and their generations unto the end of days. There were those of the old covenant that were faithful to God in keeping all his commandments and repented of their idol worshiping. Their generations who have also come back to Gods grace that are still alive during the seven trumpet sounds will continue to preach to the Jews as it was with the twelve disciples in Matthew 10:6. The generations of the 144,000 that are still alive have the seal of God on them which are the seven Spirits of God as they will have to endure much persecution until the end of days before the return of Jesus.

(Seven Spirits of God are found in Isaiah 11:2 and mentioned in Rev 1:4. Spirit of the Lord, wisdom, understanding, counsel, power, knowledge and fear/respect of the Lord.)

​

 

[RBDERRICK]

We might have strayed off topic somewhat so I want to keep this on topic as it's not about the Rapture or the resurrection of the saints, but about all of Israel being saved, even though I would like to discuss those two topics with you if you feel moved to start a new thread on those two topics please tag me.

I argue all natural Israel is saved at the outset of Christ's thousand year rule on earth, with His bodily resurrected saints.

If someone rejects a physical Millennium and teaches a spirit-only resurrection and rule on earth today, then we have to deal with that first.

By showing no such spirit-only resurrection and rule exists in doctrine and prophecy of Christ, we then return to physical rule for all natural Israel to be saved on earth at the same time.

When studying the history of the twelve tribes of Israel being the sons of Jacob/Israel we find from 1047 B.C. and 931 B.C. the twelve tribes were under the leadership of three Kings, Saul, David and Solomon. Near the end of Solomon's reign he fell into idolatry and God spoke of tearing apart the Kingdom as judgment for these sins, 1 Kings11:10-12.

After Solomon's death his son Rehoboam became King and those ten Northern tribes (Israel/Ephraim) rebelled against King Rehoboam and followed after Jeroboam up North causing a division of the north and south Kingdom. Only the tribe of Judah (Judah) and the tribe of Benjamin(Judah) stayed Loyal to King Rehoboam in the southern Kingdom for they kept Gods commandments as they knew David was the lineage of the promised Messiah as it was prophesied of the prophets of God. For almost two centuries the two Kingdoms where divided, but a remnant of the ten tribes soon came back to Judah after following Jeroboam as heturned the northern Kingdom into idol worshipers.​

Good concise history of Scripture.

This is the importance of the 144,000 of the house of Israel and their generations unto the end of days.​

There were those of the old covenant that were faithful to God in keeping all his commandments and repented of their idol worshiping. Their generations who have also come back to Gods grace that are still alive during the seven trumpet sounds will continue to preach to the Jews as it was with the twelve disciples in Matthew 10:6.​

I don't see an argument of when all natural Israel is saved here, but only an interpretation of the 144,000.

Are you saying 144,000 is the totality of all natural Israel and saved at the Lord's return?

You treat them as the first apostles preaching only to Jews. Are they preaching to unsaved Jews? If so, then not all natural Israel is saved before the Lord's return.

 

[RBDERRICK]

This is the importance of the 144,000 of the house of Israel and their generations unto the end of days.​

Rev 7 says nothing of ministerial calling, but only of sealing of God. That sealing is of the Spirit, which all saints in Christ now have.

The angel ascending is the Spirit of Christ. 'We' sealing the saints is God, the Word, and the Spirit.

These listed tribes cannot be of natural Israel, since one of them is misnamed, and is not written on any stone of Aaron's breastplate. There is no doctrine nor prophecy of Christ stating the change or end of one of those tribes of old.

The new tribes of Israel are the Israel of God and children of Abraham in Christ Jesus: the churches of God. Peter was writing to the scattered churches of Asia in His first epistle, and so was James. Peter called them strangers and James called them tribes.

Either there is no special difference made in the body and ministry of Christ by natural birth, or there isn't.

Only after His return will flesh matter again, when He gives the land promised personally to Abraham and his natural seed. Job will also see his prophecy fulfilled, when he personally sees the Lord standing on earth with the same of eyes of flesh, though now resurrected flesh and bones.

There were those of the old covenant that were faithful to God in keeping all his commandments and repented of their idol worshiping. Their generations who have also come back to Gods grace that are still alive during the seven trumpet sounds will continue to preach to the Jews as it was with the twelve disciples in Matthew 10:6.​

The 12 apostles did not exclusively preach to Jews as by special calling of God, but only because they were the first to be preached to. Jesus came first to His own, as did His apostles.

A special calling to preach to a certain people only, is contrary to the doctrine of no difference by flesh in the body and ministry of Christ.

Being a Jew to the Jews is fine, if we are Jews, but it is not an exclusive calling of God. His Son's gospel is to whosoever. Jesus was sent to the Jews, and still ministered to the Gentiles. There is no ministerial calling of God after the flesh.

The generations of the 144,000 that are still alive have the seal of God on them which are the seven Spirits of God as they will have to endure much persecution until the end of days before the return of Jesus.



​

There's no Scriptural link to the 144,000 and the remnant of natural Israel. The word remnant doesn't even appear in Rev 7.

The 144,000 are sealed saints of God on earth. If there is any difference between them and us today, is that the seal seen in their foreheads. If so, then there will be a time on earth, when the saints of God will be readily known by their Father's outward seal (as it was with outward circumcision in days of old) and the followers of the beast by His number and name.

It will be a clear way to separate between wheat and tares.

Rev 6 shows the coming of the last antichrist to the coming again of the Lamb with wrath.

Rev 7 shows who the antichrist beast wars with until the Lamb's return: All Christian saints on earth sealed with the Spirit as today inwardly, and on their foreheads.

 

[RBDERRICK]

This is the importance of the 144,000 of the house of Israel and their generations unto the end of days.​

Rev 7 says nothing of ministerial calling, but only of sealing of God. That sealing is of the Spirit, which all saints in Christ now have.

The angel ascending is the Spirit of Christ. 'We' sealing the saints is God, the Word, and the Spirit.

These listed tribes cannot be of natural Israel, since one of them is misnamed, and is not written on any stone of Aaron's breastplate. There is no doctrine nor prophecy of Christ stating the change or end of one of those tribes of old.

The new tribes of Israel are the Israel of God and children of Abraham in Christ Jesus: the churches of God. Peter was writing to the scattered churches of Asia in His first epistle, and so was James. Peter called them strangers and James called them tribes.

Either there is no special difference made in the body and ministry of Christ by natural birth, or there isn't.

Only after His return will flesh matter again, when He gives the land promised personally to Abraham and his natural seed. Job will also see his prophecy fulfilled, when he personally sees the Lord standing on earth with the same of eyes of flesh, though now resurrected flesh and bones.

There were those of the old covenant that were faithful to God in keeping all his commandments and repented of their idol worshiping. Their generations who have also come back to Gods grace that are still alive during the seven trumpet sounds will continue to preach to the Jews as it was with the twelve disciples in Matthew 10:6.​

The 12 apostles did not exclusively preach to Jews as by special calling of God, but only because they were the first to be preached to. Jesus came first to His own, as did His apostles.

A special calling to preach to a certain people only, is contrary to the doctrine of no difference by flesh in the body and ministry of Christ.

Being a Jew to the Jews is fine, if we are Jews, but it is not an exclusive calling of God. His Son's gospel is to whosoever. Jesus was sent to the Jews, and still ministered to the Gentiles. There is no ministerial calling of God after the flesh.

The generations of the 144,000 that are still alive have the seal of God on them which are the seven Spirits of God as they will have to endure much persecution until the end of days before the return of Jesus.



​

There's no Scriptural link to the 144,000 and the remnant of natural Israel. The word remnant doesn't even appear in Rev 7.

The 144,000 are sealed saints of God on earth. If there is any difference between them and us today, is that the seal seen in their foreheads. If so, then there will be a time on earth, when the saints of God will be readily known by their Father's outward seal (as it was with outward circumcision in days of old) and the followers of the beast by His number and name.

It will be a clear way to separate between wheat and tares.

Rev 6 shows the coming of the last antichrist to the coming again of the Lamb with wrath.

Rev 7 shows who the antichrist beast wars with until the Lamb's return: All Christian saints on earth sealed with the Spirit as today inwardly, and on their foreheads.

 

[for_his_glory]

And which babes and small children on earth have yet their first chance?

Hosea 4:6 My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children.
Hosea 4:7 As they were increased, so they sinned against me: therefore will I change their glory into shame.

First chances come by being taught about Jesus from a very early age of comprehending what is being taught to them about the love of Christ.

The Lord has indeed had all men, women, children, and babes, even cattle killed by righteous warfare,a nd if He were to do so at His return, He was be justified in it. But that is not the prophecy of His return.

Have you studied Rev 19:11-21 as what Christ does when He returns with His army of angels? But yet this is another topic.

Unless clearly shown otherwise by doctrine or prophecy, God the Father never sends His Son to condemn all the world and save no flesh.

I never said Jesus will come to condemn the whole world and save no flesh as that would go against what was written in John 3:16-17. When Christ returns He will slay the enemy by the brightness of His coming and by the very words He speaks of their destruction. 2 Thessalonians 2:8, Rev 19:19-21

 

[for_his_glory]

Not everyone, especially not babes and little children trouble nor even think to persecute Christians.

I never said a baby or a small child could persecute Christians, but we are getting way off topic.

 

[for_his_glory]

Rev 7 says nothing of ministerial calling, but only of sealing of God. That sealing is of the Spirit, which all saints in Christ now have.

The angel ascending is the Spirit of Christ. 'We' sealing the saints is God, the Word, and the Spirit.

These listed tribes cannot be of natural Israel, since one of them is misnamed, and is not written on any stone of Aaron's breastplate. There is no doctrine nor prophecy of Christ stating the change or end of one of those tribes of old.

The new tribes of Israel are the Israel of God and children of Abraham in Christ Jesus: the churches of God. Peter was writing to the scattered churches of Asia in His first epistle, and so was James. Peter called them strangers and James called them tribes.

Either there is no special difference made in the body and ministry of Christ by natural birth, or there isn't.

Only after His return will flesh matter again, when He gives the land promised personally to Abraham and his natural seed. Job will also see his prophecy fulfilled, when he personally sees the Lord standing on earth with the same of eyes of flesh, though now resurrected flesh and bones.



The 12 apostles did not exclusively preach to Jews as by special calling of God, but only because they were the first to be preached to. Jesus came first to His own, as did His apostles.

A special calling to preach to a certain people only, is contrary to the doctrine of no difference by flesh in the body and ministry of Christ.

Being a Jew to the Jews is fine, if we are Jews, but it is not an exclusive calling of God. His Son's gospel is to whosoever. Jesus was sent to the Jews, and still ministered to the Gentiles. There is no ministerial calling of God after the flesh.



There's no Scriptural link to the 144,000 and the remnant of natural Israel. The word remnant doesn't even appear in Rev 7.

The 144,000 are sealed saints of God on earth. If there is any difference between them and us today, is that the seal seen in their foreheads. If so, then there will be a time on earth, when the saints of God will be readily known by their Father's outward seal (as it was with outward circumcision in days of old) and the followers of the beast by His number and name.

It will be a clear way to separate between wheat and tares.

Rev 6 shows the coming of the last antichrist to the coming again of the Lamb with wrath.

Rev 7 shows who the antichrist beast wars with until the Lamb's return: All Christian saints on earth sealed with the Spirit as today inwardly, and on their foreheads.

I am speaking about Matthew 10:5-6 about how Jesus sent the disciples out to the lost sheep of Israel and Paul being sent out to the Gentiles as IMO will continue with the lost sheep of Israel from that time forth until Christ returns.

It's not an outward seal that can be seen by the eye, but that of the seal of the Holy Spirit that we read of in Ephesians 1:13 as all Jew and Gentile being of one body of Christ sealed by the Holy Spirit unto the day of redemption when Christ returns on the last day and all who are sealed, dead or alive at His coming will be gathered up to meet Him in the air, 1Corinthians 15:50-58; 1Thessalonians 4:13-18.

These servants are the generational 144,000 from the twelve tribes of Israel, except for the tribe of Dan and Ephraim as they fell to idol worship and allowed God to be removed from them, Judges 18:30; 1Kings12:25-33; Hosea 5:9, 11;Psalms 78:9-17, 65-67. To keep it twelve tribes since Dan and Ephraim are not mentioned in vs. 4-8 the tribe of Joseph appears twice, once under his own name and once under the name of his son Issachar/Manasseh. Judah is mentioned first as Messiah was to come from the lineage of David.

I see generational being the numbering of the remnant of Israel being natural Israelites from the twelve tribes of Jacob/Israel, except for the tribe of Dan and Ephraim, within the numbering of the sons/tribes of Jacob/Israel, Rev 7:4. The word remnant is not written, but I see it as being implied of the generational numbering/remnant up to the time of Christ return that are His own.

Like I said, this is just my understanding in how I study this. As for the rest of the end time events they will have to be another topic as I will not derail from the OP.

P.S. I'm on vacation right now and haven't been able to totally keep up with our conversation in which I am enjoying having with you. That is why I haven't been responding as quickly as I would like to do so with you.​