Am I overdoing the whole "submission" thing?

[handy]

Samuel, in regards to your post...the bible texts you bring up are great and they are the most pertinent to this subject...

However, as has been pointed out elsewhere, the word for submit or subject is not the same as "obey"...wives do not "obey" their husbands in the same way that children are to obey parents or slaves are to obey masters.

The word for submit or subject is a voluntary deference to someone, because of the role they hold. In the case of a Christian marriage, its easy for a woman to submit to her husband when he follows through on all that husbands are called to do.

In the case of a non-Christian husband, or a Christian husband who does not follow through on all that a husband is called to do, and yet expects to be called "Lord and Master" then it is far more difficult and submitting is very wearing.

In the OP the wife speaks of a husband who doesn't come home until early hours and doesn't call her to let her know where he is, and she admits to feeling like she has to "be on her toes" to make sure she says the right encouraging things at the right times...

This raises red flags to me...that her marriage is not one with a husband who is treating her as Christ treats the Church, who loves her sacrificially as a husband is supposed to do.

So, in this circumstance, submission is going to be more of a burden and not always will or should the wife submit. Sometimes, a godly woman can show more honor for her husband by going against him rather than for him...like in the instance when Abigail went behind Nabal's back and presented David with the debt her husband owed him. Abigail did not "obey" Nabal, nor ask his permission; she considered the problem, came to her own plan of action, and implemented the plan keeping Nabal in total ignorance. In doing so, she prevented David from acting unwisely, preserved the honor of the household, which her husband failed to do and left Nabal in the hands of God, Who enacted His judgment against him.
1 Samuel 25

 

[theophilus3213]

When a husband obeys God and fulfills his role as a husband, which is to LOVE his wife sacrificially, then it is no hardship for a wife to respect her husband and go along with him.

That is the arrangement. I have a husband like that, and I have no problem respecting him. We make decisions together because we are equals before God. If there is a difference between us in a way we should go, my trust in my husband as a man of God and one who loves me like Jesus, makes it no difficulty whatsoever to heed his way. However, it is worth saying, as I hold the wisdom gift in the relationship (as many wives do!), my husband most often chooses to defer to my judgment.

Unfortunatly God has commanded you to obey your husband regardless of what his spiritual condition is! You are to obey him even if he is not a christian! for 1 Peter 3:1 states: "likewise, ye wives, be in subjection to your own husbands; that, if any obey not the word... KJV" thus we see that your obediance to your husband is not dependant upon wether or not he is a christian or spiritually imature or backslidden or spiritual. you are to obey him regardless of what his spiritual condition might be. Yes it is easier to obey him if he is spiritual enough to be able to do what God says, but that is not a prerequsite to your obediance!

I do not know where you get the idea that you are equal to your husband before God; but it most certainly does not come from the Bible! Consider the following scriptures:

Lev 12:1-5
Then the LORD spoke to Moses, saying, 2 "Speak to the children of Israel, saying: 'If a woman has conceived, and borne a male child, then she shall be unclean seven days; as in the days of her customary impurity she shall be unclean. 3 And on the eighth day the flesh of his foreskin shall be circumcised. 4 She shall then continue in the blood of her purification thirty-three days. She shall not touch any hallowed thing, nor come into the sanctuary until the days of her purification are fulfilled.
5'But if she bears a female child, then she shall be unclean two weeks, as in her customary impurity, and she shall continue in the blood of her purification sixty-six days. NKJV

Please notice that God doubles the time that a woman is impure for a female child then for a male child. Why? When a woman gives birth to either a male or a female the amount of time for her to recover from giving birth to that child is exactly the same regardless of wether or not it is a male or female. Yet God says that she is unclean for double the leangth of time for a female. The only possible answer is that God is wanting to point out, in a very tangeble way, that boys are more important than girls.

Lev 27:1-7
Now the LORD spoke to Moses, saying, 2 "Speak to the children of Israel, and say to them:'When a man consecrates by a vow certain persons to the LORD, according to your valuation, 3 if your valuation is of a male from twenty years old up to sixty years old, then your valuation shall be fifty shekels of silver, according to the shekel of the sanctuary. 4 If it is a female, then your valuation shall be thirty shekels; 5 and if from five years old up to twenty years old, then your valuation for a male shall be twenty shekels, and for a female ten shekels; 6 and if from a month old up to five years old, then your valuation for a male shall be five shekels of silver, and for a female your valuation shall be three shekels of silver; 7 and if from sixty years old and above, if it is a male, then your valuation shall be fifteen shekels, and for a female ten shekels. NKJV

Have you ever wondered how much money your service to God is worth? Here we see God putting monetary value on male and female service. You see, when someone was dedicated to temple service by someone, to spend their lives in service there, (doing chores like cleaning up ashes, chopping wood, etc.) they had the option of redeeming them from this service later on down the road, or the person himself could redeem himself if he had the money. So God gave to Moses the value that He has placed upon men and women at various stages in life as to their worth in His
sight.

Now notice that a boy or girl that is between the ages of 1 month, and 5 years of age, are exactly equal in the amount of work that they can do. (Which is 0 amount of work.) Yet, God values the boy more than the girl. (The boy is worth 5 shekels, the girl only 3.) And from the age of 5 to the age of 20; boys and girls remain equal in ability to work until they reach puberty. Then the boys become bigger and stronger than the girls. And thus are able to do heavier work than the girls. And God places the value of the male to be double that of a female in this age group. (The male is worth 20 shekels, the female only 10 shekels.) Now from the age of 20, to the age of 60, males are obviously stronger and bigger, and thus more valuable to temple work. And because the ability of both men and women to work is much greater as adults, their value climbs much higher then when they were kids. And God places the value of the man at 50 shekels, and the woman at 30 shekels. Then from the age of 60 upward, after both of the sexes have used up their strength, and are once again basically useless as far as strength is concerned, God still values the man more than the woman. (The man is worth 15 shekels; the woman is worth 10.)

Thus we see that from the cradle to the grave, God places more value on men then women. This does not mean that women are worthless. God doe’s place value on them; But He place’s greater value on men then He does women.

(By the way, the fact that the old temple worship is done away with does not negate the fact that God gave these values to govern that dispensation. And it still has some value today in that these commands give us insight as to how God views men and women. Remember, God does not change! (Mal 3:6) How He viewed men and women back then; is precisely how he view's men and women now.)
Also consider that Jesus chose 12 men to be his apostles. He did not chose even one woman to be an apostle.

Jesus forbids women to:

1. Speak in church.

1 Cor 14:34-37
34 Let your women keep silent in the churches, for they are not permitted to speak; but they are to be submissive, as the law also says. 35 And if they want to learn something, let them ask their own husbands at home; for it is shameful for women to speak in church.
36 Or did the word of God come originally from you? Or was it you only that it reached? 37 If anyone thinks himself to be a prophet or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things which I write to you are the commandments of the Lord. NKJV

Please note that this is a commanment of Jesus Christ. It is not a suggestion! And as a command it is expected that we will obey it!

2. Teach men:

1 Tim 2:11-15
11 Let a woman learn in silence with all submission. 12 And I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man, but to be in silence. 13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve. 14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression. 15 Nevertheless she will be saved in childbearing if they continue in faith, love, and holiness, with self-control. NKJV

Here we see that the Holy Spirit clearly forbids women from teaching men, or exorcising authority over them in any way!

cont.

 

[theophilus3213]

cont.

3. Pray with thier heads unveiled.

1 Cor 11:3-15
3 But I want you to know that the head of every man is Christ, the head of woman is man, and the head of Christ is God. 4 Every man praying or prophesying, having his head covered, dishonors his head. 5 But every woman who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head, for that is one and the same as if her head were shaved. 6 For if a woman is not covered, let her also be shorn. But if it is shameful for a woman to be shorn or shaved, let her be covered. 7 For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, since he is the image and glory of God; but woman is the glory of man. 8 For man is not from woman, but woman from man. 9 Nor was man created for the woman, but woman for the man. 10 For this reason the woman ought to have a symbol of authority on her head, because of the angels. 11 Nevertheless, neither is man independent of woman, nor woman independent of man, in the Lord. 12 For as woman came from man, even so man also comes through woman; but all things are from God. 13 Judge among yourselves. Is it proper for a woman to pray to God with her head uncovered? 14 Does not even nature itself teach you that if a man has long hair, it is a dishonor to him? 15 But if a woman has long hair, it is a glory to her; for her hair is given to her for a covering. NKJV

This passage makes it plain that only men are in the image of God. And that men are the "head" of women in the same maner that Jesus is the 'head' of the church.

Hence we see clearly from the scriptures that men are superior to women in Gods eyes!

By the way there is a mountain of scientific evidence that proves that men have superior reasoning abilty, and inteligence then women do. (e.g. SAT scores, brain matter, etc.)

shalom

 

[Alabaster]

cont.

3. Pray with thier heads unveiled.

1 Cor 11:3-15
3 But I want you to know that the head of every man is Christ, the head of woman is man, and the head of Christ is God. 4 Every man praying or prophesying, having his head covered, dishonors his head. 5 But every woman who prays or prophesies with her head uncovered dishonors her head, for that is one and the same as if her head were shaved. 6 For if a woman is not covered, let her also be shorn. But if it is shameful for a woman to be shorn or shaved, let her be covered. 7 For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, since he is the image and glory of God; but woman is the glory of man. 8 For man is not from woman, but woman from man. 9 Nor was man created for the woman, but woman for the man. 10 For this reason the woman ought to have a symbol of authority on her head, because of the angels. 11 Nevertheless, neither is man independent of woman, nor woman independent of man, in the Lord. 12 For as woman came from man, even so man also comes through woman; but all things are from God. 13 Judge among yourselves. Is it proper for a woman to pray to God with her head uncovered? 14 Does not even nature itself teach you that if a man has long hair, it is a dishonor to him? 15 But if a woman has long hair, it is a glory to her; for her hair is given to her for a covering. NKJV

This passage makes it plain that only men are in the image of God. And that men are the "head" of women in the same maner that Jesus is the 'head' of the church.

False. The head of the woman is Jesus Christ, just as He is the man. In a CHRISTIAN MARRIAGE, the man REPRESENTS Christ.

Hence we see clearly from the scriptures that men are superior to women in Gods eyes!

No one is SUPERIOR to anyone in God's eyes. Read your Bible in its full context, rather than from a pinhole look at a few isolated verses. You are presuming to teach, but you mustn't teach from your bias.

By the way there is a mountain of scientific evidence that proves that men have superior reasoning abilty, and inteligence then women do. (e.g. SAT scores, brain matter, etc.)

shalom

EDITED BY STAFF

 

[theophilus3213]

Samuel, in regards to your post...the bible texts you bring up are great and they are the most pertinent to this subject...

However, as has been pointed out elsewhere, the word for submit or subject is not the same as "obey"...wives do not "obey" their husbands in the same way that children are to obey parents or slaves are to obey masters.

The word for submit or subject is a voluntary deference to someone, because of the role they hold. In the case of a Christian marriage, its easy for a woman to submit to her husband when he follows through on all that husbands are called to do.

In the case of a non-Christian husband, or a Christian husband who does not follow through on all that a husband is called to do, and yet expects to be called "Lord and Master" then it is far more difficult and submitting is very wearing.

In the OP the wife speaks of a husband who doesn't come home until early hours and doesn't call her to let her know where he is, and she admits to feeling like she has to "be on her toes" to make sure she says the right encouraging things at the right times...

This raises red flags to me...that her marriage is not one with a husband who is treating her as Christ treats the Church, who loves her sacrificially as a husband is supposed to do.

So, in this circumstance, submission is going to be more of a burden and not always will or should the wife submit. Sometimes, a godly woman can show more honor for her husband by going against him rather than for him...like in the instance when Abigail went behind Nabal's back and presented David with the debt her husband owed him. Abigail did not "obey" Nabal, nor ask his permission; she considered the problem, came to her own plan of action, and implemented the plan keeping Nabal in total ignorance. In doing so, she prevented David from acting unwisely, preserved the honor of the household, which her husband failed to do and left Nabal in the hands of God, Who enacted His judgment against him.
1 Samuel 25

Ok, Lets look at one scripture and then look at what the word 'submit' means in the greek.

Col 3:18
Wives, submit to your own husbands, as is fitting in the Lord. NKJV

The greek word that is translated 'submit' in this verse is:

NT:5293
hupotasso (hoop-ot-as'-so); from NT:5259 and NT:5021; to subordinate; reflexively, to obey:

KJV - be under obedience (obedient), put under, subdue unto, (be, make) subject (to, unto), be (put) in subjection (to, under), submitself unto.
(Biblesoft's New Exhaustive Strong's Numbers and Concordance with Expanded Greek-Hebrew Dictionary. Copyright (c) 1994, Biblesoft and International Bible Translators, Inc.)

So according to this definition, wives are caommanded to reflesively obey their husbands. That means when he tells you to do something, you do it emediatly without complaint or hassle. The only exeption is if he tells you to do something that is blantetly a sin! At which point you obey God and disobey him! But if he tells you to clean the bath tub and fill it with hot water so that he can take a bath, your correct response is to emediatly get up and clean the tub and fill it with hot water so that he can take a bath. you are to do this with out grumbling or complaining.

You must remember that God created women to be a 'Helpmeet' for man. That means that you exist for two purposes:

1. To be a subordinate helper to your husband.
2. To be a companion for your husband.

This is gods will for every wife! And God expects you to fulfill these duties in your marriage.

Shalom

 

[Alabaster]

Unfortunatly God has commanded you to obey your husband regardless of what his spiritual condition is! You are to obey him even if he is not a christian! for 1 Peter 3:1 states: "likewise, ye wives, be in subjection to your own husbands; that, if any obey not the word... KJV" thus we see that your obediance to your husband is not dependant upon wether or not he is a christian or spiritually imature or backslidden or spiritual. you are to obey him regardless of what his spiritual condition might be. Yes it is easier to obey him if he is spiritual enough to be able to do what God says, but that is not a prerequsite to your obediance!

False. Paul was talking to BELIEVERS about Christian marriages.


My head is Christ. If my husband were unsaved and tried to forbid me to go to church, I would be within my rights to say, "Look, I serve God, and I am going to church. You are welcome to come with me, but that is where I will be every Sunday."

Are you married, Samuel? Do you have a hangup about women?

I do not know where you get the idea that you are equal to your husband before God; but it most certainly does not come from the Bible!

Adam and Eve were equal before the Fall. Jesus Christ in a marriage reconciles and equalizes us. God sees us as equal under Christ, not as male and female.

 

[theophilus3213]

Samuel, in regards to your post...the bible texts you bring up are great and they are the most pertinent to this subject...

However, as has been pointed out elsewhere, the word for submit or subject is not the same as "obey"...wives do not "obey" their husbands in the same way that children are to obey parents or slaves are to obey masters.

The word for submit or subject is a voluntary deference to someone, because of the role they hold. In the case of a Christian marriage, its easy for a woman to submit to her husband when he follows through on all that husbands are called to do.

In the case of a non-Christian husband, or a Christian husband who does not follow through on all that a husband is called to do, and yet expects to be called "Lord and Master" then it is far more difficult and submitting is very wearing.

In the OP the wife speaks of a husband who doesn't come home until early hours and doesn't call her to let her know where he is, and she admits to feeling like she has to "be on her toes" to make sure she says the right encouraging things at the right times...

This raises red flags to me...that her marriage is not one with a husband who is treating her as Christ treats the Church, who loves her sacrificially as a husband is supposed to do.

So, in this circumstance, submission is going to be more of a burden and not always will or should the wife submit. Sometimes, a godly woman can show more honor for her husband by going against him rather than for him...like in the instance when Abigail went behind Nabal's back and presented David with the debt her husband owed him. Abigail did not "obey" Nabal, nor ask his permission; she considered the problem, came to her own plan of action, and implemented the plan keeping Nabal in total ignorance. In doing so, she prevented David from acting unwisely, preserved the honor of the household, which her husband failed to do and left Nabal in the hands of God, Who enacted His judgment against him.
1 Samuel 25

In the case of Abigail, she acted because she knew that if she did not act that she would be killed by david. It was a matter of life and death! And in such a situation then an 'exeption' to the rule is allowed. But Abigail did tell her husband what she had done the next day. She did not keep the matter hidden from him! She thus showed that she was submitted too him.

So we see that in a matter of life and death, if a woman has a fool for a husband, she may act in order to save thier lives. But the scripture is clear that the other reasons that you give for not obeying your husband are not legitimate reasons for disobediance. A husband is not subject to his wife! He does not have to call her and tell her where he is is if he is out to wee hours of the morning. He is her lord. And just as Jesus is not accountable to us, yet we are accountable to Jesus; so also a husband is not accountable to his wife; but his wife is accoutable to Him! Your relationship with your husband is to be a mirror of the churches relationship with Jesus! (Eph 5) You, as a wife are to be a symbol of the church to the world, and your actions tword your husband are to be similar to the actiions of the church. As the church is submitted to Christ in all things you are to be submitted to your husband in all things.

As a christian, you are not free to disobey the commands of Christ! I see you as someone who is trying to find reasons to disobey your husband and thus disobey Jesus! Jesus has commanded you to obey your husband, thus any disobediance to your husband is disobediance to Jesus!

Shalom

 

[Alabaster]

A husband is not subject to his wife! He does not have to call her and tell her where he is is if he is out to wee hours of the morning. He is her lord.

Wrong!

We are called to submit one to another! PAUL says so. A man who loves his wife as he is told to by God, will be considerate of her!

My husband is not my lord. We both have one Lord---Jesus.

And just as Jesus is not accountable to us, yet we are accountable to Jesus; so also a husband is not accountable to his wife; but his wife is accoutable to Him! Your relationship with your husband is to be a mirror of the churches relationship with Jesus! (Eph 5) You, as a wife are to be a symbol of the church to the world, and your actions tword your husband are to be similar to the actiions of the church. As the church is submitted to Christ in all things you are to be submitted to your husband in all things.

Submission as in respect.

As a christian, you are not free to disobey the commands of Christ! I see you as someone who is trying to find reasons to disobey your husband and thus disobey Jesus! Jesus has commanded you to obey your husband, thus any disobediance to your husband is disobediance to Jesus!

Garbage, Samuel. Jesus is not a hard taskmaster. I suspect you have problems with the wife submitting to you as master. It isn't like that in an equal marriage under Christ, as He designed it.

 

[handy]

Samuel, your attitude about wives do not reflect God's attitudes about wives, nor Christ's attitude about the Church which is the example husbands are to look to regarding their wives. God created us to be helpmeet's, not slaves. Christ did not order His disciples to draw a bath for Him, expecting them to jump up immediately and start pouring hot water...instead, He knelt at thier feet and washed them.

This is how Christ taught headship and leadership:
Matthew 20:27-28 And whosoever will be chief among you, let him be your servant: Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.


John 13:14-17 "Ye call me Master and Lord: and ye say well; for so I am. If I then, your Lord and Master, have washed your feet; ye also ought to wash one another's feet. For I have given you an example, that ye should do as I have done to you.
Verily, verily, I say unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord; neither he that is sent greater than he that sent him. If ye know these things, happy are ye if ye do them.

And the Holy Spirit gives these instructions to husbands:
Ephesians 5:26-33 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, that he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.
So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself. For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church: For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones. For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.
This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church. Nevertheless let every one of you in particular so love his wife even as himself; and the wife see that she reverence her husband.


1 Peter3:7 Likewise, ye husbands, dwell with them according to knowledge, giving honour unto the wife, as unto the weaker vessel, and as being heirs together of the grace of life; that your prayers be not hindered.


Perhaps some further study on hypotasso would be helpful:

From Strongs:

1) to arrange under, to subordinate
2) to subject, put in subjection
3) to subject one's self, obey
4) to submit to one's control
5) to yield to one's admonition or advice
6) to obey, be subject

Notice that this shows a much more voluntary attitude, "to subject one's self", "to submit to one's control", "to yield to one's admonition or advice".

This is much different than the "jump right up and do as your told" meaning of the word for "obey" as in children obeying their parents and slaves obeying their masters. That word is "hypakouo" and it is the word for someone whose duty is to listen for a knock at the door and upon hear that knock to jump up and let the person in.

It is good that Abigail did NOT "reflexively" obey Nabal and go along with his refusal to pay David for services that he had never asked for nor approved. If she had, David would have killed them all. As it was, she did the right thing, behind her husband's back and without talking it over with him, thus saving the household.

 

[reba]

Eph 5:21 Submitting yourselves one to another in the fear of God.
Eph 5:22 Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord.
Eph 5:23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.
Eph 5:24 Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.
Eph 5:25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;


The Scripture is clear wives are to submit to husbands, because the husband is the head of the wife. For me to say different would be a slap in the face of God. Do i like it to be honest no. Do i accept it sure its God's Word.

To say only that husbands are required by Scripture to love their wives and drop the wife submission part is just not sound doctrine.

 

[theLords]

Ladies, your Godly discernment has been spot on. ;)

Please no ad hominem attacks.

Galatians 3:28 (NIV)
There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

 

[handy]

I do agree that a wife is to submit to her husband...even if he is not a Christian, (with the exception of things that go against God's commands). That it is harder for women with non-Chrisitian husbands is understandable...but God does make promises that the unbelieving spouse will be sanctified through the believing spouse, so submission does get rewarded. It isn't easy, no, but it is worth it.

However, this thread has taken a turn and I think we need to acknowledge that it is just as unsound doctrine for a Christian man to harp on this "wives obey" attitude, as if we are but slaves or little children. The Bible has words for "slave", for "children" and for "obey" and totally different words and meanings for "wife" and "submit".

It is also very unsound doctrine for a Chrisitan man to expect his wife to "obey" (rather than submit) and expect to be treated like some kind of household potentate, when Christ's example is of sacrificing love and servanthood.

Such attitudes can and do destroy marriages.

 

[Alabaster]

To say only that husbands are required by Scripture to love their wives and drop the wife submission part is just not sound doctrine.

Nobody's dropping anything, Reba.

 

[Matthew77ask]

Why is there need to do "submission" in marriage ?

The end goal is to have a happy marriage where the house is peaceful, the family is happy and look towards GOD.

If the bible call for the wife to "submit" - and if that will result in a happy family, what seems to be the problem of not doing it?

Many cultures have this submitting thing on the wife part of the marriage.

The women liberation thing have all the HUMAN rights and so on - hence things do not go well in the family.

Look at Japan... there are no looting - riots etc and the people q up to get to their turn to get food - this even surprised us - Asian and in Singapore as well.... where we do q for a lot of things...

I know if my wife were to "submit" - ie be nice and not insist on doing and going things HER way and listen to her only - then I know I have a happy marriage - as it is now - I am SUBMITTING to her as much as I could - so that my family - ie my kids are happy - but not me though...

 

[Sparkey]

Ladies, your Godly discernment has been spot on. ;)

The ladies here have heard God. They are acting on the good seed that has been planted in the soil of their hearts by His hands. When I consider issues surrounding submission and/or resistance it is with certain heroes in mind. I could name names but the bottom line is this: It is Christ Jesus whose submission to his Father that is our example. Ladies, you are my heroes. You have set yourselves to an impossible task. I know it's impossible because I can't do it. Yet I can do all things in Christ who strengthens me.

Would it be wrong for me to learn from the ladies here what is expected of me when I contemplate my duty to submit to God? I think no. In fact, I need to see things in the flesh so that I can understand the things of the Spirit. The idea of being ready to spring up and answer the knock at the door is one of the most beautiful concepts I've heard. I'm a single guy (well, divorced) and the part of it that appeals to me is the heart that I want to be created in me for my service to my husband, Christ Jesus - He that is husband to the entire church.

Can I say that? Do the clearly defined roles of our culture and society brand me as a deviant when I say openly that the heart of wife for her husband inspires me and that I really need to see it (in the flesh so to speak) in order to be able to better grasp my position in Christ? There is no gender in heaven. I'm not trying to say that Eve was created at the same time as Adam, we all understand that Adam came first and that confers a certain position but whe should also understand, "male and female created He them". Christians do not strive to be over one another. We attain greatness by serving one anohter.

When I consider the "Women's Scriptures" -- the book of Ruth and Esther, when I think about the Song of Solomon, when I read about what my Lord and God has done for me, my heart sings in response to the song of love that is being sung over me. I want to become a good wife, of whom it is said, "Who can find her?" Her worth is above rubies and any precious stone. Submission from the heart is what I want to be found within me. Frankly, I too struggle with my need to submit and find it difficult to remain in a position of submission. There is so much rebellion and resistance to force in me that I know in truth that the statement of our Lord, "My sheep hear my voice and will not follow another," is true beyond doubt. If I am being dragged away by something brutish, I ain't gonna cooperate! It won't happen. So the fact is the fact. I once heard a sister here say, "the Holy Spirit is a gentleman," and must agree. It is that gentle spirit that causes me to respond to the goodness that is God. That is found in my brothers and sisters here as well as in others. That is the spirit that thrives in love - first of all gentle and peacable. Within that framework submission is possible.

It is the voice of the Lord that we submit to and this is not about gender.

 

[WIP]

Why is there need to do "submission" in marriage ?

The end goal is to have a happy marriage where the house is peaceful, the family is happy and look towards GOD.

If the bible call for the wife to "submit" - and if that will result in a happy family, what seems to be the problem of not doing it?

Many cultures have this submitting thing on the wife part of the marriage.

The women liberation thing have all the HUMAN rights and so on - hence things do not go well in the family.

Look at Japan... there are no looting - riots etc and the people q up to get to their turn to get food - this even surprised us - Asian and in Singapore as well.... where we do q for a lot of things...

I know if my wife were to "submit" - ie be nice and not insist on doing and going things HER way and listen to her only - then I know I have a happy marriage - as it is now - I am SUBMITTING to her as much as I could - so that my family - ie my kids are happy - but not me though...

I sometimes think a big part of the problem is that we, both male and female, get hung up and focus on the "wifely submission" part but forget about the man's role and more importantly, God's role. Marriage is a three-way proposition.