Bible Study Am I Really Saved?: The Witness of the Holy Spirit.

[donadams]

How is a person who will not come under judgement not already saved from that judgement?

You said you cannot be justified on your own without God’s help and grace, why think you can maintain a state and f justice without God’s help and grace?

Ask and you shall receive!
Thanks

 

[donadams]

Becoming a saved person and remaining a saved person are two different things. You are not properly distinguishing between the two.

You don't become a person who will not come under judgement by continuing to believe to the very end. You remain a person who will not come under judgement by continuing to believe to the very end.

That’s the same thing

 

[Jethro Bodine]

You said you cannot be justified on your own without God’s help and grace, why think you can maintain a state and f justice without God’s help and grace?

You're not answering the question.

Jesus said the believing person will not come under judgment (John 5:24). How is that not now being saved from judgement?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

That’s the same thing

All you've done is restate your argument.

Prove to us that the person who believes is not now a person who will not come under judgement, but will become that at the judgment, even though Jesus said the believing person is already that now (John 5:24).

 

[donadams]

You're not answering the question.

Jesus said the believing person will not come under judgment (John 5:24). How is that not now being saved from judgement?

What about sin? And the sin unto death?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

...that whoever believes would not perish but have everlasting life...

Believe exactly what?

Believe God's promise of the Son who inherits the blessing on our behalf that He would provide, even though he die (Hebrews 11:19), believing that God has power to do what he has promised (Romans 4:21). And so it is on the basis of that believing, apart from works, that God credits righteousness to a person (Romans 4:22, Romans 4:6).

Catholics believe that they are declared righteous after a life of faithful works. That's what it means 'to believe' to them. And so they believe that on the basis of their faithful works that a person is justified at the end of their life. That is the works justification gospel condemned in scripture. It makes Christ of no value to you in justification. You are severed from Christ. Galatians 5:2-4.

 

[Tenchi]

What about sin? And the sin unto death?

See? donadams doesn't ever address the points others make but just tosses out more red herrings, tangential things that deflect from having to stop and actually answer directly what's been put forward.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

What about sin?

What about it? Romans 8:33-34

And the sin unto death?

The sin unto death is the sin of unbelief.

Unbelief is the only thing that can separate you from the intercessory ministry of Christ. That is the only sin that can not be forgiven by the blood of Christ. Because you can not have the benefit of a sacrifice that you do not believe and trust in.

 

[donadams]

All you've done is restate your argument.

Prove to us that the person who believes is not now a person who will not come under judgement, but will become that at the judgment, even though Jesus said the believing person is already that now (John 5:24).

What about it? Romans 8:33-34

Our free will in choosing sun

The sin unto death is the sin of unbelief.

Unbelief is the only thing that can separate you from the intercessory ministry of Christ. That is the only sin that can not be forgiven by the blood of Christ. Because you can not have the benefit of a sacrifice that you do not believe and trust in.

If unbelief is sin what is sin unto death?

 

[donadams]

De fife! Dogma! Justification:
109. There is a supernatural intervention of God in the faculties of the soul, which precedes the free act of the will.
110. There is a supernatural influence of God in the faculties of the soul which coincides in time with man’s free act of will.
111. For every salutary act internal supernatural grace of God (gratia elevans) is absolutely necessary.
112. Internal supernatural grace is absolutely necessary for the beginning of faith and of salvation.
113. Without the special help of God the justified cannot persevere to the end in justification.
114. The justified person is not able for his whole life long to avoid all sins, even venial sins,
without the special privilege of the grace of God.
115. Even in the fallen state, man can, by his natural intellectual power, know religious and moral
truths.
116. For the performance of a morally good action Sanctifying Grace is not required. (Only actual grace)
117. In the state of fallen nature it is morally impossible for man without Supernatural Revelation,
to know easily, with absolute certainty and without admixture of error, all religious and
moral truths of the natural order.
118. Grace cannot be merited by natural works either de condigno or de congruo.
119. God gives all the just sufficient grace (gratia proxime vel remote sufficiens) for the
observation of the Divine Commandments.

133. Grace can be increased by good works.
134. The grace by which we are justified may be lost, and is lost by every grievous [mortal,
serious] sin.
135. By his good works the justified man really acquires a claim to supernatural reward from
God.
136. A just man merits for himself through each good work an increase of sanctifying grace,
eternal life (if he dies in a state of grace) and an increase of heavenly glory.

 

[Tenchi]

donadams:

I started this thread and never intended it to become an avenue for you to promote Roman Catholic doctrine. There is a subforum for such doctrine, as you know. Please stop posting. You're distracting mightily from the message of the OP. And with ideas that distort the Gospel very badly. Thanks.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

If unbelief is sin what is sin unto death?

The sin of unbelief is the sin unto death.

That is the only sin that the intercessory blood of Christ does not instantly atone for the believer (now ex-believer).

Any and all other sins a believer commits are instantly atoned for by the blood of Christ, continually interceding for them on the altar in heaven, that they believe and trust in.

The continued believing of the believer keeps them safe in the declaration of righteousness and righteous perfection reckoned to them the moment they first believed. Only deliberate and willful unbelief in an abandoning of the sacrifice of Christ for the forgiveness of sin can alienate the believer from that forgiveness. The believing person remains justified and perfect before God as long as he keeps believing.

Catholics, on the other hand are continually getting re-justified because they do not believe that they were reckoned righteousness and made perfect one time for all time, not needing to be repeated, by the blood of Christ when they first believed. They are continually working deeds and riruals in faith to achieve that declaration of righteousness. And so they never achieve a position of being saved in this life.

For the Catholic it can only be determined that you are righteous, and therefore, declared righteous (justified/saved), until you see if you endure to the end in the faithful and satisfactory performance of righteous rituals and deeds. It's a works justification gospel. The one condemned in scripture.

 

[donadams]

donadams:

I started this thread and never intended it to become an avenue for you to promote Roman Catholic doctrine. There is a subforum for such doctrine, as you know. Please stop posting. You're distracting mightily from the message of the OP. And with ideas that distort the Gospel very badly. Thanks.

The sin of unbelief is the sin unto death.

That is the only sin that the intercessory blood of Christ does not instantly atone for the believer (now ex-believer).

Any and all other sins a believer commits are instantly atoned for by the blood of Christ, continually interceding for them on the altar in heaven, that they believe and trust in.

The continued believing of the believer keeps them safe in the declaration of righteousness and righteous perfection reckoned to them the moment they first believed. Only deliberate and willful unbelief in an abandoning of the sacrifice of Christ for the forgiveness of sin can alienate the believer from that forgiveness. The believing person remains justified and perfect before God as long as he keeps believing.

Catholics, on the other hand are continually getting re-justified because they do not believe that they were reckoned righteousness and made perfect one time for all time, not needing to be repeated, by the blood of Christ when they first believed. They are continually working deeds and riruals in faith to achieve that declaration of righteousness. And so they never achieve a position of being saved in this life.

For the Catholic it can only be determined that you are righteous, and therefore, declared righteous (justified/saved), until you see if you endure to the end in the faithful and satisfactory performance of righteous rituals and deeds. It's a works justification gospel. The one condemned in scripture.

See how your fuzzy doctrine screws up everything!

Where does scripture say you sins are automatically covered without repentance?

1 Corinthians 6:9
Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

Galatians 5:21
Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

See anything about unbelief?

 

[AlondraSanchez]

In John 5:24, Jesus indeed states that a believing person will not come under judgment. This verse has been a source of theological discussion for a long time. The interpretation revolves around the context of salvation and eternal life. Some argue that this refers to eternal judgment, emphasizing that those who believe in Jesus are saved from the ultimate judgment in the afterlife.

 

[Josef]

Hey All,
Let's get back to Maliah inked in's original post. I know what you experienced in the parking lot was real. It changed your life that day. 16 or 60, age doesn't matter. You were ready. That's a cool testimony.
Were you expecting it? Probably not. But it happened. What about now? Are you reading the Bible? It doesn't have to be a lot. Even a verse or two at a time. Then as time permits think about what you read. Are you praying everyday? Ya gotta keep in touch. If you think about it all this is just making time for God.
Keep walking the walk of faith my friend. Keep walking everybody. May God bless,
Taz

 

[donadams]

does obedience bring righteousness or does righteousness bring obedience?

That is the question!

 

[Tenchi]

Can you guys continue these theological debates elsewhere, please? This thread is far off from the subject of the OP I wrote. There's an entire Theology forum for wrangling over doctrine where you can all discuss Roman Catholicism, or justification by faith, etc., 'til your keyboards burst into flames. Thanks.

 

[Josef]

Hey All,
Our righteousness does not come from ourselves. It is imputed to us. You have to be righteous before you can be obedient.

An untrained dog cannot do tricks. But once a trainer has imprinted their will the dog will sit, lie down, speak, or whatever you teach it to do.

Once we are taught that we need to be baptized, it is our responsibility to be obedient and do it.
Keep walking everybody. May God bless,
Taz

 

[Josef]

Sorry Tenchi. I posted while you were posting yours. I Will stop. You are right. I Will to not let it happen again.
Keep walking everybody. May God bless,
Taz

 

[donadams]

Can you guys continue these theological debates elsewhere, please? This thread is far off from the subject of the OP I wrote. There's an entire Theology forum for wrangling over doctrine where you can all discuss Roman Catholicism, or justification by faith, etc., 'til your keyboards burst into flames. Thanks.

Oh sorry