An Unbiased Poll Concerning Hell

[smaller]

It's been a long time since I saw the Wizard Of Ozz, but I do remember he was a weak and impotent character.

Yeah, so please repent of using weak and impotent terms when speaking of God...lol

I don't think it's appropriate to compare the Christian God to such a character to make a point, or get a laugh.

Anytime someone starts parading around with God on their sleeve and saying bow and worship my idol the wise and powerful whatever, I will probably call them on the subject.

Not much different than the situation of the naked Emperor. Somebody will tell the truth sooner or later.

If you don't think it's a sin to be repented of, and placed under the cross of Christ, that's between you and Him.

Well, if you want to start throwing accusations around mine is up at the top. A largely fruitless endeavor.

You're certainly free to believe whatever you want to, and I again thank you for casting your vote, and stating your opinion. That does not mean that I find your logic any less inconsistent.

Prove it.

As to no named persons being cast into the Lake of Fire, that depends on whether you see the beast and the false prophet to be human individuals. I see no reason not to.

My observation is quite secure about that fact. It is no different than satan being in Peter's body making satan the same as Peter.

These are separate positions between mankind and demonic kind but they both happen to occupy the flesh so most tend to blurr their lines between these two positions when making "judgments."

It's a common malaise.

You do not even see or allow for the difference and that is why your supposedly unbiased poll did not make allowance for the position.

Therefore your poll is biased.

enjoy!

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[guibox]

For another I can believe that satan and his messengers are going to be in the Lake forever because that is specifically in the scriptures.

You try to put every wicked person in a 'but it wasn't my fault, I was deceived!' role, so therefore they aren't going to be tossed in the lake of fire with the Deceiver Then all the texts speaking of the wicked receiving the punishment of fire aren't really the wicked at all but 'Satan and his demons'. Texts like:

And the sea gave up the dead which were in it...and they were judged every man according to their works..And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire - Revelation 20:13,15

If any man worship the beast and his image and receive his mark in his forehead or in his hand, the same shall dirink of the wine of the wrath of God...and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb - Revelation 14:10

As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire, so shall it be at the end of this world....and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend and them which do iniquity and shall cast them into a furnace of fire. There shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth - Matthew 13:40,41

And if thy hand offend thee, cut if off. It is better for thee to enter into life maimed then having two hands to go into hell into the fire taht never shall be quenched - Mark 9:43

I guess all of these are merely talking about the demons and his angels, hmm? Well, it must! It doesn't actually say, "And Bubba the rednecked farmhand was cast into the lake of fire" so it MUST just be Satan and his angels!

Your views are based on wishful thinking and an active imagination rather than scriptural support.

You also create two separate punishments for the wicked and the devil. Fire coming down out of heaven to burn the wicked, Lake of Fire for the devil. Even if you did believe in such nonsense, either way they all get burned so I'm not sure what your point is.

Apparently God is merciful enough to not send the wicked sinners into the lake of fire, but his mercy isn't big enough to cut the angel sinners any slack. Sin is mostly punishable in degrees and determinate on who sins rather than the sin problem itself. Poor little sinners! Even though I gave you the freedom of choice to spit in My face, its not your fault! I'll just let you burn by fire for who knows how long! But the demons! Well, THEY get the lake of fire! What's the difference? I don't know, ask smaller!

:roll:

 

[Judy]

 

[smaller]

For another I can believe that satan and his messengers are going to be in the Lake forever because that is specifically in the scriptures.

You try to put every wicked person in a 'but it wasn't my fault, I was deceived!' role, so therefore they aren't going to be tossed in the lake of fire with the Deceiver Then all the texts speaking of the wicked receiving the punishment of fire aren't really the wicked at all but 'Satan and his demons'.

I stared at the scriptures for decades to see past the abundant inconsistencies guibox. I know many have, yourself included as well. Your desired position is faced with multifold problems that I can only begin to describe in this format. You could actually write a very large book about the inconsistencies in Christian positions.

One of those glaring inconsistencies is in holding and counting sins against other people "because" it is a condition that you have as well. You cannot honestly judge to someone else's detriment for a condition that should rightfully apply to you as well. This unbalanced and unrighteous form of judgment is what led me to my search for legitimate scriptural alternatives.

If I cannot defend my position by encompassing the scriptures entire counsel and do so on an encompassing basis then I am forced to re-examine the validity of the positions held, rather than to just be locked into stubborness eh? I don't like being a hypocrite.

That is why there are so many fragmented groups. All of them can make an argument but who can really run the entire gauntlet of the texts? It's a difficult thing to say the least.

I do not rest easily in the camps of liars.

So texts like:

[quote:98059]And the sea gave up the dead which were in it...and they were judged every man according to their works..And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire - Revelation 20:13,15

If any man worship the beast and his image and receive his mark in his forehead or in his hand, the same shall dirink of the wine of the wrath of God...and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb - Revelation 14:10

As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire, so shall it be at the end of this world....and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend and them which do iniquity and shall cast them into a furnace of fire. There shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth - Matthew 13:40,41

And if thy hand offend thee, cut if off. It is better for thee to enter into life maimed then having two hands to go into hell into the fire taht never shall be quenched - Mark 9:43

I guess all of these are merely talking about the demons and his angels, hmm?[/quote:98059]

Undoubtedly them, the devil and his messengers. The reason you don't see it that way is because you are not paying attention to what Jesus said and did. He talked to these things openly "in men." How could you have missed that one???

The burden really is on the proponents of people being tossed in to the Lake to actually find a single named example in the Bible of anyone having such a fate as there should theoretically be millions of potential examples, or at least find one named example of a human being even threatened with such a fate, but alas for that position there is not one single example of the fate or even the threat.

The devil and his messengers however have a ripe batch of scriptures that specifically and openly identify them as about to have this fate without any doubt whatsoever.

There is also the undeniable fact that these two positions are overlayed into the flesh of all mankind, save One, Jesus Christ.

Well, it must! It doesn't actually say, "And Bubba the rednecked farmhand was cast into the lake of fire" so it MUST just be Satan and his angels!

You and I have touched on another problem with your "desired" application. It makes God torturing and burning His Own children and offsprings alive in fire. So that is another weakness for your position.

Want more?

It also makes God The Father of those vile things that He is about to torture.

Want more?

Believe me, I have looked at this subject from every possible angle. When you finish with my initial barrages I save my best stuff for the harshest attacks. You get the disposable versions at the front lines.

Most cannot penetrate the simple observations. The people who are "equipped" to get past their own biases will improve their positions by the jousting factors.

Your views are based on wishful thinking and an active imagination rather than scriptural support.

Prove it. Just making the whine is pointless.

You also create two separate punishments for the wicked and the devil.

Not at all. The wicked are the devil and his messengers.

Fire coming down out of heaven to burn the wicked, Lake of Fire for the devil.

Why do you equate the Lake with fire coming down out of heaven?

Not that there isn't one iota of evidence to show that the same fires that destroy the wicked will purify the earth as a lake of fire where all is cast in.

I agree. These are two separate fires. There are many other types of fires as well. None of them have the same purposes just because they are "fires" of various sorts.

Even if you did believe in such nonsesen, either way they all get burned so I'm not sure what your point is.

I'm really not certain what you are getting at here guibox. You may have read in your imaginations into the position. It happens alot.

Apparently God is merciful enough to not send the wicked sinners into the lake of fire, but his mercy isn't big enough to allow the angel sinners any slack.

Ah, another Christian fairy tale. The devil and his messengers are not described anywhere as being ever holy and pure so the entire notion that the fallen angels were once Holy is a fairy tale. Jesus said the devil was a murderer from the beginning.

Good old, fair, merciful, loving God who plays favorites with His creation. :roll:

Well, He sure does with His Own kids. As to the anti-life entities that He created to destroy, No, He will not be merciful. They were never intended to have mercy or to obtain it.

They were made for our exercise in Love. Ecclesiastes 1:13 and Ecclesiastes 3:10



enjoy!

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[Shana]

The All Wise and Powerful God I worship sees the end from the beginning, and as He takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked, He would not have created beings He knew would sin if this meant they would suffer eternal torment.

Amen, Mike. I don't believe that this (eternal (never ceasing) torment) corresponds with the love of God as expressed in the scriptures. Jesus rebuked those who needed rebuking and He warns of Gehenna fire. Many will experience destruction, ruin, loss, and death. I believe that many have or will experience Gehenna fire. But just what was or is Gehenna fire is the question. The people of Sodom experienced aionios fire, and they were destroyed, yet these individuals will one day rise again. Sodom will also be restored to its former estate, so this is a example of the purpose of fire, the destruction of sin .

The belief in never ending torment gives evil an everlasting effect, influence, and presence in God's creation in that these individuals will remain sinners and under the domain of sin for all of eternity. They will be enemies of God for all of eternity, will they not? This contradicts the scriptures which speak of the abolishment of all rule, power, and authority, save God's. Although God has permitted and I believe even designed the creation for the lessons which are to be learned in experiencing results from being under the domain sin, the power of evil and sin, of Satan, the deceiver, will one day be abolished. I believe that when evil and sin will have fulfilled their purpose in God's plan for the creation, the result will be the eventual and ultimate triumph of good over evil (for our experience or realization) From God's perspective, this has already been accomplished. But as long as evil and sin, are permitted to remain in existence, this influence and power will not have been abolished, meaning rendered powerless, made of no effect. God bless.

 

[Michael Burke]

It's been a long time since I saw the Wizard Of Ozz, but I do remember he was a weak and impotent character.

Yeah, so please repent of using weak and impotent terms when speaking of God...lol

[quote:12fe1]
I don't think it's appropriate to compare the Christian God to such a character to make a point, or get a laugh.

Anytime someone starts parading around with God on their sleeve and saying bow and worship my idol the wise and powerful whatever, I will probably call them on the subject.

Not much different than the situation of the naked Emperor. Somebody will tell the truth sooner or later.

If you don't think it's a sin to be repented of, and placed under the cross of Christ, that's between you and Him.

Well, if you want to start throwing accusations around mine is up at the top. A largely fruitless endeavor.

You're certainly free to believe whatever you want to, and I again thank you for casting your vote, and stating your opinion. That does not mean that I find your logic any less inconsistent.

Prove it.

As to no named persons being cast into the Lake of Fire, that depends on whether you see the beast and the false prophet to be human individuals. I see no reason not to.

My observation is quite secure about that fact. It is no different than satan being in Peter's body making satan the same as Peter.

These are separate positions between mankind and demonic kind but they both happen to occupy the flesh so most tend to blurr their lines between these two positions when making "judgments."

It's a common malaise.

You do not even see or allow for the difference and that is why your supposedly unbiased poll did not make allowance for the position.

Therefore your poll is biased.

enjoy!

smaller[/quote:12fe1]
If I had used weak and impotent terms in refering to God, I would repent. All Wise, All Powerful, and foreseeing all are hardly weak and impotent terms. I am sorry that you feel my poll is biased, but I did not intentionally exclude your option. I just never considered the possibility of anybody holding such an view. You seem to be saying that human beings have no guilt at all, nothing to repent of, and no need of a Savior. The only individuals who could repent under that scenario are non-human, but you say that they were foreordained to suffer eternal torment (which implies that God does foresee all BTW, so I still don't get the relevance of your reference to the Wizard of Oz.) Your logic is internally inconsistent. If the doctrine of eternal torment fails to do justice to the revealed nature of God as a God of love (and before everyone who believes in eternal torment jumps on me here, please notice that I said "if"), your doctrine does no better. It's racism on a cosmic level. Worse then that, it removes the need for human repentance. Whatever else we might disagree on, I hope most of us would agree that we're sinners in need of a Savior. Without that starting point there is no repentance, no salvation, and no need for a Savior. As strongly as I disagree with your point of view, I would have included your option if I had foreseen your objection (but then I'm not all wise, all powerful, or capable of foreseeing all.) I do apologize if I've said anything to offend you, but I've said no more then what I felt needed to be said.

 

[Michael Burke]

Amen, Mike...

Thank you Shana

 

[Michael Burke]

There should be one more poll option............

EVERYONE goes to Hell!!

Perhaps, but then I would have had to have included Rhet Butler's option too (there is no hell Scarlet.) As this is a Christian forum, and I assumed we all share a common belief in scripture, I saw no need to include such options. For better or worse, I didn't foresee anyone holding Smaller's view either. God bless.

 

[smaller]

Hi Mike

If I had used weak and impotent terms in refering to God, I would repent. All Wise, All Powerful, and foreseeing all are hardly weak and impotent terms.

They certainly were when used in connection with the Wizard of Oz though eh?

I am sorry that you feel my poll is biased, but I did not intentionally exclude your option. I just never considered the possibility of anybody holding such an view.

Thank you. I say give the devil his due and save the people. All of them.

You seem to be saying that human beings have no guilt at all, nothing to repent of, and no need of a Savior.

Obviously that last part you made up. We are all temporal slaves of darkness, hence yes, a need for sure.

The only individuals who could repent under that scenario are non-human, but you say that they were foreordained to suffer eternal torment (which implies that God dis foresee all BTW, so I still don't get the relevance of your reference to the Wizard of Oz.)

Let's move on past the Wizard stuff OK? It's irrelevant but if you were an eternal tormentor of people believer I would pick on you immensely or rather that which is in people that promotes such things.

Your logic is internally inconsistent.

Prove it. You keep saying this but as of this post you actually had no idea that such a position was possible, so I find it kinda hard to believe that you could both grasp the position and deny it that quickly. Sorry. What wer are dealing with then actually becomes how the information overlays your positions and the resulting crossfire that occurs when this happens. We really are not talking then about "my position" but how my position may shortcircuit or come into contention with your position.

It's not a bad thing.

If the doctrine of eternal torment fails to do justice to the revealed nature of God as a God of love (and before everyone who believes in eternal torment jumps on me here, please notice that I said "if"), your doctrine does no better.

I have absolutely no problem with God creating a resistor to Love and then putting that resistor away. This does not mean that the resistor had any redeemable value whatsoever. It could be no more than an anti-spiritual machine like a piece of "exercise equipment" to ready God's Children for Love. Ecclesiastes 1:13 and Ecclesiastes 3:10

It's racism on a cosmic level.

Well, you see, underlying your view of my view we will find that you have an entirely different position from mine about just exactly what or who the personification of sin, evil, and death really is.

To me these "things" are no more than the temporal servants of God so what we really should be examining is your view of just what or who the devil really is eh?

Why don't you dig a little deeper before you jump off the deep end of false accusations???

Really, anyone who has come as far as you have should be able to do better. Where you are at is not obtained by just any old believer. You understand that, right? The reason you arrived where you did is because you were willing to question positions that you "held."

Perhaps that process should never stop in the quest to Light Up???

Worse then that, it removes the need for human repentance.

I have never said that either. So I really wish you'd stop making these imaginary strawmen to burn. You are burning up nothing more than your own biases that really have little to do with the realities of my understandings.

Whatever else we might disagree on, I hope most of us would agree that we're sinners in need of a Savior. Without that starting point there is no repentance, no salvation, and no need for a Savior. As strongly as I disagree with your point of view, I would have included your option if I had foreseen your objection (but then I'm not all wise, all powerful. or capable of foreseeing all.)

I think you could use a little polish, but in case you didn't know it we are not supposed to discuss UR here. The moderators have elected to go with an anti-American view for their site here. Freedom of religion only exists if you agree with them.

I do apologize if I've said anything to offend you, but I've said no more then what I felt needed to be said.

I don't really think you have gotten out of the gate quite frankly but that's OK. It'll come to you.

enjoy!

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[Shana]

You're welcome, Mike. I just wanted those participating to know that I am using the ignore function on this thread due to some of the negative manner of posting which that I feel is inappropriate in order to maintain a civil and respectful discussion, so if there are certain comments which are addressed to me and are not responded to, this is the reason why. Thanks and God bless.

 

[Michael Burke]

you actually had no idea that such a position was possible, so I find it kinda hard to believe that you could both grasp the position and deny it that quickly.

I was responding to what you said, not what you may have meant. I believe I understand what you're saying now, and while I still disagree with you, it's quite different from what I took you to be saying. If you believed that angels, the devil, and fallen angels, were personal entities, and did not believe that God would create people whom He knew would sin, and suffer eternal torment (and then said that He had created angels knowing that they would sin, and suffer eternal torment), your position would be a kind of cosmic racism, but you're apparently saying something else. I think I understand what you're saying now, and I disagree with what you're saying now, but I regret I did not include your option. I do think it's somewhat mis-leading to speak of impersonal entities as suffering eternal torment, and of human beings as being exempt from the lake of fire, if you believe there are aspects of the human psyche that need chastening in such fire (which is what you seem to be saying now, and which is not at all what I believe.) That said, I apologize for my part in any mis-understanding, and assure you that I did not intend this poll to be biased in anyway.

 

[smaller]

you actually had no idea that such a position was possible, so I find it kinda hard to believe that you could both grasp the position and deny it that quickly.

I was responding to what you said, not what you may have meant. I believe I understand what you're saying now, and while I still disagree with you, it's quite different from what I took you to be saying. If you believed that angels, the devil, and fallen angels, were personal entities, and did not believe that God would create people whom He knew would sin, and suffer eternal torment (and then said that He had created angels knowing that they would sin, and suffer eternal torment), your position would be a kind of cosmic racism, but you're apparently saying something else. I think I understand what you're saying now, and I disagree with what you're saying now, but I regret I did not include your option. I do think it's somewhat mis-leading to speak of impersonal entities as suffering eternal torment, and of human beings as being exempt from the lake of fire, if you believe there are aspects of the human psyche that need chastening in such fire (which is what you seem to be saying now, and which is not at all what I believe.) That said, I apologize for my part in any mis-understanding, and assure you that I did not intend this poll to be biased in anyway.

Thanks Mike!

The only thing I would request is when you publically criticise another's view you should understand the position first and then provide specific relevant critique rather than shoot from the hip with false position analysis and false accusations. God bless.

 

[Michael Burke]

Thanks Mike!
The only thing I would request is when you publically criticise another's view you should understand the position first and then provide specific relevant critique rather than shoot from the hip with false position analysis and false accusations. God bless.

You're welcome. I take it I understand your position now. Though you voted for eternal torment, you did so because you believe that impersonal resistance mechanisims are cast off in the lake of fire. You feel my poll was biased because it did not include such an option, and that I was shooting from the hip. I again apologize. Now could you please tell me who's on first?

 

[smaller]

Congratulations! You have now escaped from the temporal hand of the accuser. That shows me much for what it is worth.

Let us remain vigilant at all times lest we lose our advantage.

enjoy!

smaller

 

[Michael Burke]

Congratulations! You have now escaped from the temporal hand of the accuser. That shows me much for what it is worth.

Let us remain vigilant at all times lest we lose our advantage.

enjoy!

smaller

I see. So when "who" gets paid, who picks up the check? "Absolutely, sometimes his wife picks it up." Right? I think I've seen this before. May I ask you a simple question? Do you believe that Jesus Christ (Yehoshua HaMeshiac, Ihsous Christos) was the Son of God come in the flesh, who died for our sins, and rose the third day? Is He Lord? Please reply. Thank you.

 

[smaller]

Congratulations! You have now escaped from the temporal hand of the accuser. That shows me much for what it is worth.

Let us remain vigilant at all times lest we lose our advantage.

enjoy!

smaller

I see. So when "who" gets paid, who picks up the check? "Absolutely, sometimes his wife." Right?

?

I think I've seen this before. May I ask you a simple question? Do you believe that Jesus Christ (Yehoshua HaMeshiac, Ihsous Christos) was the Son of God come in the flesh, who died for our sins, and rose the third day? Is He Lord? Please reply.

Unquestionably Yes.

Do you think you smell an apostasy of some sort?

 

[Michael Burke]

Unquestionably Yes.

Can I take this to mean that you believe He is the Messiah promised in the Hebrew scriptures, who is yet to return (not in His people BTW, but in the same way He left, as it says in Acts 1:11), and reign on Earth?

Do you think you smell an apostasy of some sort?

Just checking. What I do think is that you interrupted a meaningful dialogue with meaningless double talk. My apologies to you have been sincere (and I again offer them if there's been any mis-understanding), but my last characterization of your view was intended to illicite some attempt at clarification (which is what I would have expected if you had seriously meant anything you were saying.) Since you seem to have missed the absurdity of how I presented your position, I must point out that an impersonal "resistance machine" cannot suffer conscious torment. It could perhaps be annihilated, but that is not the option you voted for, and it is not the position you've been defending. I retract what I said about your logic being inconsistent, as there is no logic. You're position is in fact incomprehensible. I do not know what (or who) motivates you, but I find it difficult to believe that it's any real intellectual commitment to what you present as your position here.

 

[Asimov]

So far I stand alone I voted "Hell is everlasting, unbelievers being justly punished for all eternity"

I believe the unbelievers are not given a second chance, nor are they annihilated. The punishment of the wicked dead is described throughout Scripture as "everlasting fire" (Matt 25:41); "unquenchable fire" (Matt 3:12); "shame and everlasting contempt" (Dan. 12:2); a place where "their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched" (Mark 9:44-49); a place of "torments" and "flame" (Luke 16:23,24) "everlasting destruction" (2Thes 1:9); a place of torment with "fire and brimstone" where "the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever" (Rev. 14:10,11); and a "lake of fire and brimstone" where the wicked are "tormented day and night forever and ever" (Rev. 20:10). Here Jesus indicates that the punishment itself is everlasting -- not merely the smoke and flames.

And you have no problem with this, Judy?

 

[Judy]

So far I stand alone I voted "Hell is everlasting, unbelievers being justly punished for all eternity"

I believe the unbelievers are not given a second chance, nor are they annihilated. The punishment of the wicked dead is described throughout Scripture as "everlasting fire" (Matt 25:41); "unquenchable fire" (Matt 3:12); "shame and everlasting contempt" (Dan. 12:2); a place where "their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched" (Mark 9:44-49); a place of "torments" and "flame" (Luke 16:23,24) "everlasting destruction" (2Thes 1:9); a place of torment with "fire and brimstone" where "the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever" (Rev. 14:10,11); and a "lake of fire and brimstone" where the wicked are "tormented day and night forever and ever" (Rev. 20:10). Here Jesus indicates that the punishment itself is everlasting -- not merely the smoke and flames.

And you have no problem with this, Judy?

No, I don't have a problem with that!! When I posted my response I was the only one that voted the way I did, now there a 6. :wink:

 

[smaller]

Unquestionably Yes.

Can I take this to mean that you believe He is the Messiah promised in the Hebrew scriptures, who is yet to return (not in His people BTW, but in the same way He left, as it says in Acts 1:11), and reign on Earth?
[quote:603da]Do you think you smell an apostasy of some sort?

Just checking. What I do think is that you interrupted a meaningful dialogue with meaningless double talk.[/quote:603da]

There you go with that pointless accusation stuff again. If you want to openly critique my position then do it with intelligence, not pointless accusations. To spout such nonsense without specifics just shows your own shortcomings.

My apologies to you have been sincere (and I again offer them if there's been any mis-understanding), but my last characterization of your view was intended to illicite some attempt at clarification (which is what I would have expected if you had seriously meant anything you were saying.)

I gave you all the specifics you could handle and you still insisted that the position was wrong, but rather than ask for specific clarifications you just keep going off.

Now you are being downright insulting.

Since you seem to have missed the absurdity of how I presented your position,

You only presented your own biased absudity of a position you never heard before. That ringing in your mind was purely your subjective view, "not mine." It is disingenuous to present a false view.

I must point out that an impersonal "resistance machine" cannot suffer conscious torment.

Are you going to make a case that you know what anti-life is or what "it" can "experience.?" lol

The Lake of Fire can just as well be an anti-heaven for anti-spirits.

It could perhaps be annihilated, but that is not the option you voted for, and it is not the position you've been defending.

I am not willing to take a position on complete annihilation because the scriptures do not present that position. If death will be "no more" it does not mean that death is not "in The Lake of Fire" stripped of it's powers.

I retract what I said about your logic being inconsistent, as there is no logic.

And you remain a pointless accuser.

You're position is in fact incomprehensible.

Prove it. All the howling wind in the world does not equal a coherent argument eh? I can take your position apart piece by piece and prove it worthless.

I do not know what (or who) motivates you, but I find it difficult to believe that it's any real intellectual commitment to what you present as your position here.

And you my dear Michael have a severe communications problem to say the least.

enjoy!

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