A
Asimov
Guest
Judy said:
No no...I mean you don't have a problem that people you might know or love, even people you don't know and don't love are going to be spending eternity in hell?
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No no...I mean you don't have a problem that people you might know or love, even people you don't know and don't love are going to be spending eternity in hell?
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Shana
Guest
Can anyone who believes in eternal hell, please share how the effect and power of sin and evil will be abolished if individuals will remain lost in sin, separated from God, being enemies of God for all of eternity? Do you believe that evil and sin will remain in effect and in power for all of eternity? There are many examples in the scriptures where, for example, one word which has been translated as everlasting or eternal refers to things or situations that have not lasted forever. Do we really know what was was being communicated? God bless.
The following verse describes what you say is "in power"?!?
Revelation 20:10, "And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulphur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever."
I don't think I'd call that still in effect or in power of anything.
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Shana
Guest
DkC, I did not say that sin and death will remain in power for all of eternity. I asked those who believe in eternal hell if they believe that the power and effect of sin and death will remain in existence for all of eternity. Isn't this what is being said, if hell exists for all of eternity? Sinners, the lost, will remain sinners, under the domain or power of sin and darkness, being enemies of God forever, won't they? God bless.
Can you show me any law which governs the dead? The dead are sentenced to their judgements for what they did in life. How can those of Revelation 20:12 still sin when there is no law to govern them? Romans 5:13 "....But sin is not taken into account when there is no law."
Maybe you can clear this all up if you can show me evidence of laws for the dead.
S
Sophistress
Guest
*Eternal* *Torment* :o Everlasting pain. You have no problem with that? Seriously think about it. I don't know what's wrong with you... why you can't see that your belief is immoral. Perhaps you have just been desensitised to billions of people being tortured.... forever. :oJudy said:Asimov said:Judy said:So far I stand aloneI voted "Hell is everlasting, unbelievers being justly punished for all eternity"
I believe the unbelievers are not given a second chance, nor are they annihilated. The punishment of the wicked dead is described throughout Scripture as "everlasting fire" (Matt 25:41); "unquenchable fire" (Matt 3:12); "shame and everlasting contempt" (Dan. 12:2); a place where "their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched" (Mark 9:44-49); a place of "torments" and "flame" (Luke 16:23,24) "everlasting destruction" (2Thes 1:9); a place of torment with "fire and brimstone" where "the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever" (Rev. 14:10,11); and a "lake of fire and brimstone" where the wicked are "tormented day and night forever and ever" (Rev. 20:10). Here Jesus indicates that the punishment itself is everlasting -- not merely the smoke and flames.
And you have no problem with this, Judy?
No, I don't have a problem with that!! When I posted my response I was the only one that voted the way I did, now there a 6. :wink:
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Shana
Guest
Are you a believer in annihilation or eternal hell for the lost, DkC? This question was directed towards those who believe in eternal hell, believing that there will be those lost in sin for all of eternity. Also if you believe in eternal death, these folk will still be under the domain or power of death. Sin has sentenced them to death. Back a little later. God bless.
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GundamZero
Guest
Just read to the end of Revalations. Where does Jesus say unbelievers go and how long they will stay there?
Heathen said:
Yes! Seriously, I do believe that is what scripture teaches.
Hell will acknowledge the perfect justice of God (Ps. 76:10); those who are there will know that their punishment is just and that they alone are to blame (Deut. 32:3-5). Yes, Hell is a place of torment and punishment that lasts forever and ever, with no end!
Our sin bears an eternal consequence because it is ultimately against an eternal God. God is an eternal and infinite Being. As a result, all sin is worthy of an eternal punishment.
Our loved ones are condemned by their own refusal to accept Jesus Christ as their Savior (John 3:16; John 14:6). Our focus should not be on how we can enjoy Heaven without all of our loved ones there, but rather on how we can point our loved ones to faith in Christ – so that they will be there.
All we must do is place our faith in Him and we are saved, forgiven, cleansed, and promised an eternal home in heaven. God loved us so much to provide for our salvation. If we reject His gift of eternal life, we will face the eternal consequences of that decision.
You didn't clear this up.
Shana wrote:
Can you show me any law which governs the dead? The dead are sentenced to their judgements for what they did in life. How can those of Revelation 20:12 still sin when there is no law to govern them? Romans 5:13 "....But sin is not taken into account when there is no law."
Maybe you can clear this all up if you can show me evidence of laws for the dead.
Shana wrote:
Can you show me any law which governs the dead? The dead are sentenced to their judgements for what they did in life. How can those of Revelation 20:12 still sin when there is no law to govern them? Romans 5:13 "....But sin is not taken into account when there is no law."
Maybe you can clear this all up if you can show me evidence of laws for the dead.
M
Michael Burke
Guest
Hi Judy,Judy said:Asimov said:Judy said:So far I stand alone
I believe the unbelievers are not given a second chance, nor are they annihilated. The punishment of the wicked dead is described throughout Scripture as "everlasting fire" (Matt 25:41); "unquenchable fire" (Matt 3:12); "shame and everlasting contempt" (Dan. 12:2); a place where "their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched" (Mark 9:44-49); a place of "torments" and "flame" (Luke 16:23,24) "everlasting destruction" (2Thes 1:9); a place of torment with "fire and brimstone" where "the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever" (Rev. 14:10,11); and a "lake of fire and brimstone" where the wicked are "tormented day and night forever and ever" (Rev. 20:10). Here Jesus indicates that the punishment itself is everlasting -- not merely the smoke and flames.
And you have no problem with this, Judy?
No, I don't have a problem with that!! When I posted my response I was the only one that voted the way I did, now there a 6. :wink:
You have a belief that is based on centuries of tradition, and supported by popular translations. Given the King James Only Position (which is another subject) it would seem the only option (unless you get into the etymology of certain English words, which lead back to Latin words, and are related to Greek words, but that would get very complicated. ) Given that, no one should fault you for what you believe, and on behalf of all of us who believe in UR, I apologize for any inappropriate comments that may have been made. As to the results of the poll, I find them rather interesting. Last time I checked it had 541 views, but only 15 votes were cast. I know that there are more then 3 UR's here on the forum, and I would be very suprised if there were not more then 9 ET's, and 3 annihilationits (especially since this last view is held by virtally all Adventists, was adopted by the Episcopal Church in the 1990's, and has been widely discussed in the Evangelical community.) Barring any totally unscriptural, or absurd and contradictory fourth options, I can only conclude that most of those who visited this thread were either undecided, or elected not to vote. Don't you find that at least interesting? I think it shows that the subject is at least worthy of honest and open discussion, don't you?
A
Asimov
Guest
Judy said:
How is that justice, Judy?
What? How can finite mistakes have any effect on an infinite god? You're saying God can be hurt by our actions?
That's avoiding the question, Judy. How could you stand anyone being in hell, while you are in heaven? Remember you are looking down on these people, being tortured, and you are not going to be affected by it?
It's a little more difficult than that, Judy. You seem to oversimplify the problem.
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aiki
Guest
Hello all. New poster butting in. Hope you won't mind.
When I have discussed this issue with others it always seems to come down to the matter of "How could God torture people for all eternity? That is immoral and vicious!" But, it seems to me that this reaction to eternal punishment in Hell speaks, not to God's fairness, but to the disparity between how people see their sin and how a perfectly holy God sees it. We are so comfortable with sin, often not even seeing it for what it is, that we are boggled by God's absolute and perfect hatred of it expressed in His eternal, fiery judgment of the wicked. Perhaps if we were truly holy as He is holy, if we despised sin as He does, we would see Hell for what it is: perfect justice.
In Christ, Aiki.
When I have discussed this issue with others it always seems to come down to the matter of "How could God torture people for all eternity? That is immoral and vicious!" But, it seems to me that this reaction to eternal punishment in Hell speaks, not to God's fairness, but to the disparity between how people see their sin and how a perfectly holy God sees it. We are so comfortable with sin, often not even seeing it for what it is, that we are boggled by God's absolute and perfect hatred of it expressed in His eternal, fiery judgment of the wicked. Perhaps if we were truly holy as He is holy, if we despised sin as He does, we would see Hell for what it is: perfect justice.
In Christ, Aiki.
S
Shana
Guest
Can you show me of any law that will not govern those who will apparently be living in hell for all of eternity, although they are described as many to be dead?
If they will be living for all of eternity and unreconciled to God, what will they be, DkC, if you believe in eternal hell? If one is existing in an eternal hell, separated from God, will he or she not be an enemy of God?
Is the devil an enemy of God? When do you think that he became an enemy of God? Do you believe that the devil who is to be tormented as described in Rev. 20 will be an enemy of God for all of eternity or not?
Were we under the sentence and power of death before or after we became sinners according to the law?
God bless.
Very well said aiki. I think you really exposed the heart of the problem in your post (no pun intended).
S
Shana
Guest
The wages of sin is described as death. If eternal hell is the penalty, why did God conceal this from Adam, from Moses, His chosen people, and the majority, if He loves all men? I believe that God despises the sin but loves those who are enslaved to sin. If He did not, then Jesus would not have died for us. The lost are said to be sick, blinded, enslaved, lost, deceived. And Jesus hated the sin, but lived among sinners and gave His life for them. He also taught us to love our enemies and to be perfect as our Heavenly Father. God bless.
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Shana
Guest
:D Can anyone who believes in eternal hell, please share how the effect and power of sin and evil will be abolished if individuals will remain lost in sin, separated from God, being enemies of God for all of eternity? Do you believe that evil and sin will remain in effect and in power for all of eternity? There are many examples in the scriptures where, for example, one word which has been translated as everlasting or eternal refers to things or situations that have not lasted forever. Do we really know what was was being communicated? God bless.