And these signs shall follow them that believe;

[OzSpen]

Then don't generalize.

 

[chessman]

Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”

Did Jesus say unless one is born again and again, he cannot see the kingdom of God?

You cannot refute a passage that does talk about regeneration in water and Spirit by quoting another passage that does not say anything whatsoever about regeneration.

The passage doesn't say reborn of water, it says born of water. Poof!

Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water ...

How come Jesus does not say; 'unless one is reborn of water ...' if He meant regeneration/rebirth via water?

Justin:

For, in the name of God, the Father and Lord of the universe, and of our Savior Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit, they then receive the washing with water.

Did Justin teach us to water baptize people before or after their regeneration via the Spirit of God?

 

[for_his_glory]

Baptismal Regeneration obsession created by reinventing the scriptures.
More then likely you have a really really bad translation of the bible that did this to you.

so, let me help you.

"you must be born OF water, and OF the Spirit".

Notice....these are 2 separate BIRTHS... and the LORD is actually teaching that one is natural and one is spiritual.
And he is not talking about John's baptism of repentance, as this is the only one AT THE TIME Jesus is speaking about,= that He would be explaining.
So, what we have here, is the Lord making a distinction between natural child birth where a woman's water BREAKS, (born of WATER), as compared to the "born again" by the SPIRIT birth....."you must be BORN AGAIN".....as in YOU MUST BE BORN TWICE.
ONCE HERE FROM THE WOMB, AND ONCE IN THE SPIRIT BY THE HOLY SPIRIT.

Ephesians 2:8 Salvation is by grace through faith in Jesus and not by works, which would make water baptism a work towards repentance. John said I must decrease and Jesus increase. Jesus never baptized with actual water even though He first came to John's water baptism as a fulfillment of the beginning of Christ ministry as the Holy Spirit fell down on Him that day and there after Jesus baptized others with the Holy Spirit, John 3:25-34

John 3:5 never mentions the word baptize, but says only by being born of water and spirit, which means water as living water (word) that no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are Spiritually renewed (born again) by the word, which is Christ Jesus and by the Holy Spirit that came on them in the OT and indwells us in the NT. Many do read into the passage a preconceived idea or theology, but baptism is never mentioned in this verse. Word is living water as described in John 4:10; 7:38; 1John 5:6; Jeremiah 2:13; Isaiah 55:1-3 to name a few.

If salvation came by actual immersion in water Jesus clearly could have simply stated, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is baptized by being immersed in water and born of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.” Further, if Jesus had made such a statement, He would have contradicted numerous other Bible passages that make it clear that salvation is by faith (John 3:16; John 3:36; Ephesians 2:8-9; Titus 3:5).

We do bring up the case of the thief on the cross who repented, the women who was to be stoned for adultery, the women at the well, death bed confessions and even those who are incapacitated that can not be immersed in water. Does this mean they are not saved or born again, no. It means that no dirty river water is going to save anyone, but that it is only a symbol of repentance like that of John the baptist who called those to repent. There is nothing wrong with being dunked in water, but know that it is only an outward appearance to others of what has already taken place Spiritually within you when you accepted Jesus and indwelled with the Holy Spirit.

 

[chessman]

There is nothing wrong with being dunked in water

It would be inappropriate and against Church Tradition to dunk an unregenerate person in water, but I'm sure that's not what you meant.

Good (excellent actually) post.

 

[for_his_glory]

It would be inappropriate and against Church Tradition to dunk an unregenerate person in water, but I'm sure that's not what you meant.

Good (excellent actually) post.

Here's a little story about me being dunked when I first accepted Jesus way back in the day. I did it twice at different places as I felt nothing with the first time nor the second time as I was yet without the knowledge of what the baptism of the Holy Spirit was as I was not taught before hand, but only heard and read about John's baptism in actual water and thought that was the only way to be saved. Pastors really need to teach what the Baptism of the Holy Spirit is, but some of them really have no clue.

 

[Jim Parker]

The second 'of' is missing.

It is unnecessary to understand that water and Spirit are two different items.

 

[Jim Parker]

Did Jesus say unless one is born again and again, he cannot see the kingdom of God?

Do you have a point or am I supposed to guess?

 

[OzSpen]

It is unnecessary to understand that water and Spirit are two different items.

I know that, Jim. That's why I explained that there was no 'ek' before spirit/Spirit, but only before 'water', indicating 'born of water and Spirit' is speaking of the one entity.

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

In John chapter 6, John isn't talking about regeneration by water baptism; he's talking about the Eucharist.
And, since he isn't saying anything about regeneration by water baptism in that passage, you can not say that it proves anything about water.
So, of course nothing in John 6:36 doesn't say that water ever made anyone holy or regenerated. Why would it? That's a totally different topic from what John was speaking of there.
Jesus specifically DID SAY that you have to be born again (regenerated) in water AND in spirit at John 3:3-5.
Jesus answered and said to him, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”
Nicodemus said to Him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?”
Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God.
In THAT passage, Jesus IS talking about being born again (regenerated) in water AND in the Spirit.
You cannot refute a passage that does talk about regeneration in water and Spirit by quoting another passage that does not say anything whatsoever about regeneration.
You have taken one verse out of its context and tried to force it to say something it was never meant to say.

We have been asked by a moderator to not discuss baptismal regeneration under this topic.

Therefore, I have started a new thread in the Theology forum, 'Is baptismal regeneration biblical?'

Oz

 

[chessman]

I asked you (in the very post you quoted):

1.

Did Jesus say unless one is born again and again, he cannot see the kingdom of God?

2.

How come Jesus does not say; 'unless one is reborn of water ...' if He meant regeneration/rebirth via water?

3.

Did Justin teach us to water baptize people before or after their regeneration via the Spirit of God?

Yet, You didn't answer a single question and asked me another two part question (which I'll answer below as I watch for your answers to mine):

Here are my answers to your complex question:

Do you have a point

Yes.

Re-posted here

The passage doesn't say reborn of water, it says born of water.

am I supposed to guess

No. You're suppose to actually answer relevant-logical questions countering your 'case' and thus defend the reasons why you believe that water baptism regenerates a person versus water baptism being a sign that follows a spirit regenerated person (as this is the OP's topic.