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And these signs shall follow them that believe;

Jim Parker said:
"Those who do not know their history are condemned to repeat it." George Santayana
By not being familiar with the history of the Church, particularly the early history, one can be unaware of the heretical teachings with which the early church was confronted. And, being unaware, it is easy to fall into the same error.
That's all.

What manner?

astounding
The scriptures that speak of regeneration by water baptism have nothing to do with regeneration by water baptism.
Huh??

BA English, MA Psychology, MBA, MA Theology (Dumb Irishman! I didn't manage to get a PhD in something! :rofl2)

Just?? That is nothing to look down upon. You probably have a better education than most Americans under age 30.

Was a missionary with Pentecostal Holiness Church before I started reading the early church fathers. Now I'm Orthodox.
(Ortho-costal???)

That was not my intention.
Sorry it came across that way.

iakov the meshuganeh
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Pentecostal Holiness Church -- Orthodox. i understand where your coming from but i still disagree and just because i dont know early church history does not mean i am not aware of heretical teachings .
BAPTISM IS REGENERATION. i reject
 
OzSpen said:
The Salvation Army believe baptism is unnecessary for salvation.
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1Pet 3:21 There is also an antitype which now saves us—baptism
The Salvation Army is wrong.
OzSpen said:
It's the teaching like you are giving - that baptism is necessary for salvation - that influenced the Salvos in their no-baptism position.
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So they don't like what the scripture says. They have a lot of company in contemporary "Christiana Americana."
OzSpen said:
The meaning of the phrase, "born of water and the spirit" has generated lots of possible meanings,
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I would say "plausible" meanings, as in, "I could imagine that it means (whatever)."
OzSpen said:
The most satisfactory conclusion, in my view, is that ‘born of water and the Spirit’ is influenced by three factors: (1) It is a parallel meaning to ‘born from above’ and so only one birth is in view – the born again, new birth. (2) A unity of water-spirit;
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Following is the teaching of the primitive Church from the generation taught by the apostles.
Justin Martyr (100 – 165 AD) The First Apology, Chapter LXI, “Christian Baptism”
I will also relate the manner in which we dedicated ourselves to God when we had been made new through Christ; lest, if we omit this, we seem to be unfair in the explanation we are making. As many as are persuaded and believe that what we teach and say is true, and undertake to be able to live accordingly, are instructed to pray and to entreat God with fasting, for the remission of their sins that are past, we praying and fasting with them. Then they are brought by us where there is water, and are regenerated in the same manner in which we were ourselves regenerated. For, in the name of God, the Father and Lord of the universe, and of our Savior Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit, they then receive the washing with water. For Christ also said, “Except ye be born again, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.” Now, that it is impossible for those who have once been born to enter into their mothers’ wombs, is manifest to all. And how those who have sinned and repent shall escape their sins, is declared by Esaias the prophet, as I wrote above; he thus speaks: “Wash you, make you clean;...”

And for this [rite] we have learned from the apostles this reason. Since at our birth we were born without our own knowledge or choice, by our parents coming together, and were brought up in bad habits and wicked training; in order that we may not remain the children of necessity and of ignorance, but may become the children of choice and knowledge, and may obtain in the water the remission of sins formerly committed, there is pronounced over him who chooses to be born again, and has repented of his sins, the name of God the Father and Lord of the universe; …… The illuminand is also washed in the name of Jesus Christ, who was crucified under Pontius Pilate, and in the name of the Holy Spirit, who through the prophets foretold everything about Jesus.

Justin connects baptism in water directly to Jesus' words at John 3. I do not possess the audacity to attempt to refute or correct Justin and to replace his documentation of the standard practice of the Church from before the beginning of the 2nd century with my meager ability to dissect the mind of Christ.

It seems to me to be the curse of the popular view that everyone's opinion is equally as valid as the opinion of anyone else resulting in so many who are so willing to second guess the teaching of scripture and the most ancient Church. Some do so out of ignorance and the influence of poor teaching from the pulpit. Of others, who have been given the resources to be better informed, I cannot say what their motivations might be.

But it saddens me to see so many true believers in Christ fighting against the teaching of scripture.

iakov the meshuganeh
 
ezra said:
Pentecostal Holiness Church -- Orthodox. i understand where your coming from but i still disagree and just because i dont know early church history does not mean i am not aware of heretical teachings .
BAPTISM IS REGENERATION. i reject
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I have shown you the scripture which states that we die and are buried with Christ in baptism and then rise again to new life.
I don't know how it could be any clearer than that.
The you reject the teaching of scripture as documented by the primitive church and thereby embrace a non-scriptural, modern, deviant teaching.
But I still believe you love Jesus and are saved. :)

iakov the meshuganeh
 
Matthew 28:19 KJV
Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

Jesus said there is one good.
Fathers baptism is one of repentance.

Sons baptism is into eternal life one name under heaven for salvation.

Holy Spirits baptism is for power to witness.

Now John's baptism is water baptism, repenting of having missed the Fathers criteria.

Having a great need of eternal life you turn to Jesus for salvation. I honestly do not know how to assign water to Jesus, but it is ok by me.

Needing to bring others into the previous two steps you need power to witness. I am pretty sure water is not a sign for Holy Spirit baptism, but it is a baptism.

Baptism into Moses in the sea and cloud.
Baptism into a rock. I Corinthians 10:4 KJV
And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

The water flows into in Christ Jesus?
And
Out of our belly by the Holy Spirit?

Now all this is not to create confusion, but to get us to think outside our limited box.

eddif
 
Jim Parker said:
we die and are buried with Christ in baptism and then rise again to new life.
Click to expand...
symbolically speaking is what it represents the old us dies and is resurrected at the new birth 2 Corinthians 5:17 the thief on the cross was not baptized i watched a Orthodox baby baptism no offense not sure if it is like the one your associated with . they pured oil all over that child put in water ..it was nothing more than a fleshly ceremony
 
ezra said:
symbolically speaking is what it represents the old us dies and is resurrected at the new birth 2 Corinthians 5:17
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If there is no reality then it is "symbolic" of absolutely nothing. To be a symbol, it must represent a reality.
The word "spiritually" does not mean "like a fairy tale."
Spiritually, the old man really does die and the new man if Christ is born again.
the thief on the cross was not baptized
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OK, I agree that anyone who comes to believe in Jesus while being nailed to a cross and is about to die does not need water baptism since it is impossible for to get it and God is not some jerk who demands what we do what is impossible to do.
i watched a Orthodox baby baptism no offense not sure if it is like the one your associated with . they pured oil all over that child put in water ..it was nothing more than a fleshly ceremony
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Your uninformed opinion is duly noted.
Baptism was COMMANDED by Jesus (Mat 28:19).
If you consider it a "fleshly ceremony" then tell Jesus; it was His idea.
 
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eddif said:
Matthew 28:19 KJV
Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

Jesus said there is one good.
Fathers baptism is one of repentance.

Sons baptism is into eternal life one name under heaven for salvation.

Holy Spirits baptism is for power to witness.

Now John's baptism is water baptism, repenting of having missed the Fathers criteria.

Having a great need of eternal life you turn to Jesus for salvation. I honestly do not know how to assign water to Jesus, but it is ok by me.

Needing to bring others into the previous two steps you need power to witness. I am pretty sure water is not a sign for Holy Spirit baptism, but it is a baptism.

Baptism into Moses in the sea and cloud.
Baptism into a rock. I Corinthians 10:4 KJV
And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

The water flows into in Christ Jesus?
And
Out of our belly by the Holy Spirit?

Now all this is not to create confusion, but to get us to think outside our limited box.

eddif
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Hi E
A real blessing for me was how you explained about the

FATHER: Baptism unto repentence. (John the Baptist, preparing the way from Father to Son)
SON: Baptism unto Eternal Life. (Eternal Life and Zoe Life the "spark" of spiritual life is given by Jesus)
HOLY SPIRIT: Baptism to empowering witnessing. (Jesus: "But you shall receive power when the HolySpirit comes upon you")

I have no opinion on this but some believe the Word of God is represented by water, and Jesus IS the Word of God.
(a topic that is of no interest to me because I fail to see its importance)

I like the concept of drinking the water from Moses' rock and Jesus said HE is Living Water so the rock was Jesus.

Nice post.
 
ezra said:
symbolically speaking is what it represents the old us dies and is resurrected at the new birth 2 Corinthians 5:17 the thief on the cross was not baptized i watched a Orthodox baby baptism no offense not sure if it is like the one your associated with . they pured oil all over that child put in water ..it was nothing more than a fleshly ceremony
Click to expand...
Hi Ezra

I'm not Orthodox but I do have something you might want to ponder.

A baby is born a creature with a sinful nature.
The result, or effect, of Adam's sin.
God cannot stand to be in the presence of sin.
The baby dies.

What happens?

I DO know the Catholic position even though I'm not Catholic.
They believe that if a baby dies and is not baptized, we must believe in the love, mercy and justice of God.
They will NOT come right out and declare that he is going to heaven, although it IS implied.

So, I do wonder about this sometimes.
I think sometimes we're toooo sure of ourselves.
(by the way, the CC never taught there existed a place called Limbo for babies dying sans baptism)

Just a thought.

Jesus did say to baptize.
I tend to think He knew what He was talking about.
 
wondering said:
Hi E
A real blessing for me was how you explained about the

FATHER: Baptism unto repentence. (John the Baptist, preparing the way from Father to Son)
SON: Baptism unto Eternal Life. (Eternal Life and Zoe Life the "spark" of spiritual life is given by Jesus)
HOLY SPIRIT: Baptism to empowering witnessing. (Jesus: "But you shall receive power when the HolySpirit comes upon you")

I have no opinion on this but some believe the Word of God is represented by water, and Jesus IS the Word of God.
(a topic that is of no interest to me because I fail to see its importance)

I like the concept of drinking the water from Moses' rock and Jesus said HE is Living Water so the rock was Jesus.

Nice post.
Click to expand...
You done it some good with your comments.
eddif
 
Jim Parker said:
astounding
The scriptures that speak of regeneration by water baptism have nothing to do with regeneration by water baptism.
Huh??
Click to expand...

Jim,

I find that statement to be evasive. It should read, IMO, "The scriptures that speak of regeneration by water baptism [as interpreted by Jim Parker, but not so by many other commentators] have nothing to do with regeneration by water baptism [according to Jim's interpretations of Scripture].

Oz
 
Jim Parker said:
I have shown you the scripture which states that we die and are buried with Christ in baptism and then rise again to new life.
I don't know how it could be any clearer than that.
The you reject the teaching of scripture as documented by the primitive church and thereby embrace a non-scriptural, modern, deviant teaching.
But I still believe you love Jesus and are saved. :)

iakov the meshuganeh
Click to expand...
i have a know so i been redeemed by the blood
 
wondering said:
Hi Ezra

I'm not Orthodox but I do have something you might want to ponder.

A baby is born a creature with a sinful nature.
The result, or effect, of Adam's sin.
God cannot stand to be in the presence of sin.
The baby dies.

What happens?

I DO know the Catholic position even though I'm not Catholic.
They believe that if a baby dies and is not baptized, we must believe in the love, mercy and justice of God.
They will NOT come right out and declare that he is going to heaven, although it IS implied.

So, I do wonder about this sometimes.
I think sometimes we're toooo sure of ourselves.
(by the way, the CC never taught there existed a place called Limbo for babies dying sans baptism)

Just a thought.

Jesus did say to baptize.
I tend to think He knew what He was talking about.
Click to expand...
do what?
 
Jim Parker said:
And THAT is the crux of the matter. :clap
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Jesus most certainly promoted baptism as an important dimension of discipleship (Matt 28:18-20). Nowhere did Jesus state that the crux of the salvation issue is believe and be baptised, except in the non-canonical Mk 16:16 (non-canonical as accepted by many scholars, including major contemporary Bible translators).

Paul and Silas told the Philippian jailer: “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household (Ac 16:31 ESV)”. They did not say, "Believe and be baptised in the Name of the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved".

Don't you think we should get back to the OP that these signs will follow those who believer?

Oz
 
Jim Parker said:
1Pet 3:21 There is also an antitype which now saves us—baptism
The Salvation Army is wrong.

So they don't like what the scripture says. They have a lot of company in contemporary "Christiana Americana."
Click to expand...

Jim,

Much of evangelical Christianity worldwide does not agree with your position of baptismal regeneration.

Here you cite 1 Peter 3:21 as convincing you that baptism saves. This evangelical exegete does not agree with you: 'Does 1 Peter 3:21 teach that baptism is necessary for salvation?'

The Salvation Army is correct - according to a comprehensive look at the Scriptures. However, I do not agree with the Salvos not baptising converts. Baptism is a biblical mandate AFTER salvation and not FOR salvation.

Oz
 
Please read the description of The Lounge Forum, and you'll see how this thread is not in keeping with it.

Closed for moderator review.
 
Ok, thread has been moved so let's get :topic

If someone wants to start a thread on baptismal regeneration, go ahead. But this isn't that. ;)
 
OzSpen said:
The Salvation Army founders viewed baptism as a ritual some Christians use to replace having a genuine inward spiritual relationship with God.
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Acts 8:36
36 And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?

37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

38 And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.
 
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