I have shown you scripture after scripture that supports my position. You have chosen to ignore it, Jesus tells of his literal return in Mathew 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21. Paul reasserts that prophacy in 1 Thess 4, and 1 Cor 15. I have also shown you over 30 scriptures that tie these accounts to OT prophacies. Your position simply does not hold up to scrutiny. I have said nothing about returning to feasts.
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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join Hidden in Him and For His Glory for discussions on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/become-a-vessel-of-honor-part-2.112306/
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Hitch
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Jesus literal return is not in question and has nothing to do with the OP.
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Lehigh3
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by Hitch,
If so, then why did He tell Peter that he would return & receive him to Himself?
Surely Christ being God knew Peter would die - for He indicated it at the end of John's gospel. And what do you think Christ "receiving" Peter to himself indicated?
I believe Mt.24:29-31 NKJV alludes to the resurrection of the righteous dead at the last trumpet. And it was the same as the 7th trumpet.
Mt.24:29-31 NKJV,
The Coming of the Son of Man
29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
I may have to start another thread on the nature of Jesus' return.
But in the meantime, how was or is His return "literal?"
View attachment 1818
This is where I lose you. What do you mean by "literal?" Are you thinking that Jesus would come down from the clouds of heaven to earth literally in the body He arose from the dead with?
If so, then why did He tell Peter that he would return & receive him to Himself?
Surely Christ being God knew Peter would die - for He indicated it at the end of John's gospel. And what do you think Christ "receiving" Peter to himself indicated?
I believe Mt.24:29-31 NKJV alludes to the resurrection of the righteous dead at the last trumpet. And it was the same as the 7th trumpet.
Mt.24:29-31 NKJV,
The Coming of the Son of Man
29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
I may have to start another thread on the nature of Jesus' return.
But in the meantime, how was or is His return "literal?"
View attachment 1818
The literal return of Jesus is entertwined with all that is left for israel. As there destruction to come, and future home of the millinial kingdom awaits.
9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
10 And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;
11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven. acts 1v
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Hitch
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And SnowWhite and Seven Dwarfs are on their way over for dinner ?
Exactly where in scripture does Jesus talk about a temporal kindom?
Exactly where did the authors of the New Testament teach this?
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So am i to assume that you only believe the words of christ are scripture. and that there is no other evidence is valid. Jesus did not need to teach it it was well known from the OT teachings in fact it was what the Jews were expecting to begin with. It was all rapped up in the Term the DOTL. 1 THESSALONIANS 5
2 For yourselves know perfectly that the DAY OF THE LORD so cometh as a thief in the night.
2 PETER 3
10 But the DAY OF THE LORD will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
Danial 7v13 I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him.
14 And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a KINGDOM, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his KINGDOM that which shall not be destroyed.
Rev 5v9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.
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Lehigh3
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warhorse,
Your interpretation of Acts 1 doesn't answer the question.
Read this when you have time.
What About Acts 1-- "He Shall Come In Like Manner"?
by Don Preston
There are a variety of ways to counter this unfounded claim, including the fact that the Greek term (hon tropon) translated "in like manner" does not demand identicalness. As a matter of fact, those who press for the "in like manner" definition do not actually hold to a coming in identical manner as the ascent. For instance, Jesus left silently; yet, those who believe in a yet future parousia believe he will come with the literal sound of a trumpet.
While hon tropon can sometimes mean identicalness, it more often means general likeness, without specificity. For instance, in Matthew 23:37, Jesus said he had desired to gather Jerusalem "as (hon tropon) a mother hen gathers her chicks. Surely no one would argue that Jesus wanted to gather Jerusalem under his literal arm! Likewise, Paul said that the evil men arising in his generation withstood the truth "as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses." Would anyone argue that Paul’s enemies were opposing him exactly and precisely as the false Egyptian prophets? In point of fact, hon tropon, seldom means exact likeness.
Jesus left, visible to only a handful of people. Yet, all futurists believe the Second Coming will be visible to every eye of every human on earth. Jesus told his disciples, "Yet a little while, and the world will see me no more; but ye will see me; because I live, you shall live also" (John 14:19). After his resurrection, Jesus appeared only to a select few (Acts 10:41), even including the 500 witnesses (1 Corinthians 15), and never appeared to the "world" at large again. And, here in John 14, he said that the world (kosmos) would never see him again. Jesus was never to appear in the flesh to the world again!
Jesus left without any "fanfare." Yet, we are told that at the end of the present age, he will come with the destruction of material creation--which clearly did not happen at the ascension. And, he will come with 10,000 angels, when only one angel was present at the ascension.
There was no flaming fire, nor destruction of literal creation at the ascension. Yet, we are told that this is what happens when Christ returns in the future (2 Thessalonians 1; 2 Peter 3).
Jesus did not ascend on a white horse, with a sword protruding from his mouth, leading the army of heaven. Yet, John says that at the Second Coming, Jesus rides a white horse, leads the armies of heaven, and has a sword coming out of his mouth (Revelation 19). Where is the "in like manner" comparison here?
Consider the Transfiguration for a moment. (Be sure to see our articles on "Defining the Parousia" for a fuller discussion of this issue.) The Transfiguration was a vision of the parousia (Matthew 17; 2 Peter 1:16-19). However, what did Jesus look like at the Transfiguration? Did he look as he did at the ascension? Clearly not! The Transfiguration scene presented Jesus with the effulgent glory of Deity shining through. Jesus’ appearance was so radically transformed that the disciples were "scared out of their minds" to use a modern term. So, the Transfiguration was a vision of the Second Coming, but Christ’s appearance at the Transfiguration in no way resembles his appearance at the Ascension. Therefore, to overly emphasize "in like manner" in Acts 1 is patently wrong headed.
Likewise, in Revelation 1:13f, Jesus appeared to John in his post ascension form, and that description, that apocalupsis of Jesus, in no way resembles the ascension appearance of Jesus:
"In the midst of the seven lamp stands One like the Son of Man, clothed with a garment down to the feet and girded about the chest with a golden band. His head and His hair were white like wool, as white as snow, and His eyes like a flame of fire; his feet were like fine brass, as if refined in a furnace and His voice as the sound of many waters; He had in His right hand seven stars, out of His mouth went a sharp two-edged sword, and His countenance was like the sun shining in its strength." (Revelation 1:13-16).
Notice that John saw, "one like the Son of Man." The One he saw was so resplendently different than that One he had known, had seen, had touched (1 John 1:1-3), in his Incarnate existence, that John could only say that the One he now saw was like ( ìïéïÃ), the Son of Man.
Is it not clear that this appearance of Jesus was not Jesus in the flesh? This was not Jesus in his post resurrection earthly form. There is no physical, bodily likeness between this vision and what the disciples saw at the Ascension. Thus, to press the "in like manner" of Acts 1:9f to identicalness is misplaced. Both the Transfiguration and John’s vision on Patmos reveal Jesus’ parousia epiphany, and there was nothing of his earthly form revealed in either vision. In both of these visions, we see Jesus revealed as Deity, not as a man.
Very clearly, there are very significant and material differences between the Ascension of Christ and the traditionally taught Second Coming. Thus, the term "in like manner" should not be pressed too hard by those who insist on identicalness of manner. We have more to say about this in our book Like Father Like Son, On Clouds of Glory. The book is currently sold out, and is under revision, but will be re-published in the near future.
Your interpretation of Acts 1 doesn't answer the question.
Read this when you have time.
What About Acts 1-- "He Shall Come In Like Manner"?
by Don Preston
WHAT ABOUT IN LIKE MANNER?
One of the most common objections to Covenant Eschatology is based on Acts 1:9f. The disciples, beholding the ascending Christ, were told that he would come, "in like manner as you have seen him go into heaven" (Acts 1:9f), this means, we are told, that Jesus must return in a physical body.There are a variety of ways to counter this unfounded claim, including the fact that the Greek term (hon tropon) translated "in like manner" does not demand identicalness. As a matter of fact, those who press for the "in like manner" definition do not actually hold to a coming in identical manner as the ascent. For instance, Jesus left silently; yet, those who believe in a yet future parousia believe he will come with the literal sound of a trumpet.
While hon tropon can sometimes mean identicalness, it more often means general likeness, without specificity. For instance, in Matthew 23:37, Jesus said he had desired to gather Jerusalem "as (hon tropon) a mother hen gathers her chicks. Surely no one would argue that Jesus wanted to gather Jerusalem under his literal arm! Likewise, Paul said that the evil men arising in his generation withstood the truth "as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses." Would anyone argue that Paul’s enemies were opposing him exactly and precisely as the false Egyptian prophets? In point of fact, hon tropon, seldom means exact likeness.
Jesus left, visible to only a handful of people. Yet, all futurists believe the Second Coming will be visible to every eye of every human on earth. Jesus told his disciples, "Yet a little while, and the world will see me no more; but ye will see me; because I live, you shall live also" (John 14:19). After his resurrection, Jesus appeared only to a select few (Acts 10:41), even including the 500 witnesses (1 Corinthians 15), and never appeared to the "world" at large again. And, here in John 14, he said that the world (kosmos) would never see him again. Jesus was never to appear in the flesh to the world again!
Jesus left without any "fanfare." Yet, we are told that at the end of the present age, he will come with the destruction of material creation--which clearly did not happen at the ascension. And, he will come with 10,000 angels, when only one angel was present at the ascension.
There was no flaming fire, nor destruction of literal creation at the ascension. Yet, we are told that this is what happens when Christ returns in the future (2 Thessalonians 1; 2 Peter 3).
Jesus did not ascend on a white horse, with a sword protruding from his mouth, leading the army of heaven. Yet, John says that at the Second Coming, Jesus rides a white horse, leads the armies of heaven, and has a sword coming out of his mouth (Revelation 19). Where is the "in like manner" comparison here?
Consider the Transfiguration for a moment. (Be sure to see our articles on "Defining the Parousia" for a fuller discussion of this issue.) The Transfiguration was a vision of the parousia (Matthew 17; 2 Peter 1:16-19). However, what did Jesus look like at the Transfiguration? Did he look as he did at the ascension? Clearly not! The Transfiguration scene presented Jesus with the effulgent glory of Deity shining through. Jesus’ appearance was so radically transformed that the disciples were "scared out of their minds" to use a modern term. So, the Transfiguration was a vision of the Second Coming, but Christ’s appearance at the Transfiguration in no way resembles his appearance at the Ascension. Therefore, to overly emphasize "in like manner" in Acts 1 is patently wrong headed.
Likewise, in Revelation 1:13f, Jesus appeared to John in his post ascension form, and that description, that apocalupsis of Jesus, in no way resembles the ascension appearance of Jesus:
"In the midst of the seven lamp stands One like the Son of Man, clothed with a garment down to the feet and girded about the chest with a golden band. His head and His hair were white like wool, as white as snow, and His eyes like a flame of fire; his feet were like fine brass, as if refined in a furnace and His voice as the sound of many waters; He had in His right hand seven stars, out of His mouth went a sharp two-edged sword, and His countenance was like the sun shining in its strength." (Revelation 1:13-16).
Notice that John saw, "one like the Son of Man." The One he saw was so resplendently different than that One he had known, had seen, had touched (1 John 1:1-3), in his Incarnate existence, that John could only say that the One he now saw was like ( ìïéïÃ), the Son of Man.
Is it not clear that this appearance of Jesus was not Jesus in the flesh? This was not Jesus in his post resurrection earthly form. There is no physical, bodily likeness between this vision and what the disciples saw at the Ascension. Thus, to press the "in like manner" of Acts 1:9f to identicalness is misplaced. Both the Transfiguration and John’s vision on Patmos reveal Jesus’ parousia epiphany, and there was nothing of his earthly form revealed in either vision. In both of these visions, we see Jesus revealed as Deity, not as a man.
Very clearly, there are very significant and material differences between the Ascension of Christ and the traditionally taught Second Coming. Thus, the term "in like manner" should not be pressed too hard by those who insist on identicalness of manner. We have more to say about this in our book Like Father Like Son, On Clouds of Glory. The book is currently sold out, and is under revision, but will be re-published in the near future.
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Hitch
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- #69
Obviously you are in the habit of making poor assumptions,one more cant hurt too much (sorry I assumed you knew most of the OP was Pauline )
Jesus spoke often about the kingdom, so there should be plenty of materiel for you
I doubt this pasage is conserned with the Secind Advent, but it might be. If it is and you believe it I wonder how you see history continuing .
Tell is this the Kingdom Jesus speaks of here?:
And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.
Is this the kingdom Jesus always spoke about or is there some other kingdom ? Is this the kingdom Paul defined?
So the kingdom is peopled only by the holy nation of Royal Priests Ezekiel wrote about ,right? The same nation Pete wrote about as applied to the church as copied in the OP ,yes?
Why should anyone believe that you are more qualified to interpret OT scriptures
than Peter, Paul and even our Lord himself?
Wow that was a great wall of text to point out what should be obviose to all that it would be simular, but not an identical event. Simply that he would return with the clouds as he himself indicated in Mathew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21. And was common in OT referances as well in Jer 4, Dan 7, Nah 1. And many other referances to clouds and thick darkness in relation to the DOTL. Rev 19 is a Picture, like the Great whore, not a literal depiction of events.
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Hitch
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Topic please,
For purposes of this thread, and any other thread I open, the future bodily return of Christ is part of the presupposition that includes but is not limited to the voractity of scripture .
That is to say beyond question.
If you care to engage on that scpecific please be kind enough to open a thread.
For purposes of this thread, and any other thread I open, the future bodily return of Christ is part of the presupposition that includes but is not limited to the voractity of scripture .
That is to say beyond question.If you care to engage on that scpecific please be kind enough to open a thread.
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I am not more qualified, i am simply noting what they have said. There is no doubt that the spiritual kingdom of God has begun. Jesus was the cornerstone and all, before and after the cross who are/were saved have there part in that spiritual kingdom now, and in the literal kingdom after his return and a physical resirection of the church on the DOTL.
Topic please,
For purposes of this thread, and any other thread I open, the future bodily return of Christ is part of the presupposition that includes but is not limited to the voractity of scripture .
If you care to engage on that scpecific please be kind enough to open a thread.
Good we found one thing we can agree on. Thats a start.
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Hitch
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- #74
i am simply noting what they have said
Who? You didnt quote Jesus , and the passages you did quote said nothing of any sort of temporal kingdom.
You have ignored Pauls defintion of the kingdom
And you have not explained how there is history after
10 But the DAY OF THE LORD will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
Not to mention my own questions and objections.
Evidently we have a failure to communicate. You seem to be demanding NT proof of a tempiral Kingdom, That was taught in the OT and refered to in the NT. The OT shows that Gods earthly Kingdom is built in the ashes of the old world with a refreshing that starts at the end of the Day of the lord. Eze shows the church in the midst of the millinial kingdom. Both OT and NT scriptures show a bodily resirection, I mean really, what is the point of a body in an etheral kingdom. History is always in the past so i don't know what you want there, and please refresh me on what Pauls definition of Gods kingdom was, because he is the one that points to a bodily resirection.
Rom 14:17 For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.
Mar 1:14 Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God,
Mar 1:15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.
Mar 1:14 Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God,
Mar 1:15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.
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Hitch
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As I said the kingdom is mentioned many times and you cant find any NT evidence for your program , hence you do in fact place your own interpretatins above that of the apostles ,dangerous territory
I asked you is that the same kingdom Jesus spoke of or not ?
Didnt Jesus come 'in the end of the world' ?
Peter says the church is the holy antion of Royal Priests, today.
You do belive Jesus has a body and sits at the Right Hand of Power ,yes? in heaven ; is that silliy ?
Romans 14:17
For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.
Look the kingdom of God is spiritual in nature. Yet there is a literal kingdom to take place as Gods kingdom takes over the kingdoms of men.
Rev 11v 15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
I have shown you literal evidince that you chose to spiritualize from Both OT and NT, We agree that the nature of Gods kingdom is spiritual. But that does not negate an earthly kingdom to come, as prophacied in the OT and refered to in the NT.
Zec 14v 6 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark:
7 But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.
8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.
9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.
Rev 5v9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.
Rev 11v15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.