Angels...Halos, Wings and Harps?

[jasoncran]

Read it in the Greek.

No, you didn't. You are putting a meaning into the text which isn't there. No man has existed prior to his physically being born, except Jesus, the God-man.

Heb 2:5-9 says it all (as does Bick's post and the numerous other passages in Scripture). Angels are not men and men are not angels.

AND GOD SAID TO JEREMIAH

5Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

Funny,,,,you say no man existed prior to physically being born ,,,but here we have God,,,telling a prophet he knew him before his physical birth.....

God exist outside the timeline and exists simultaeneously in pressnt .past, future, he knows our beginings and end.

 

[whirlwind]

What we are being shown is that they are us...we are them. One in flesh and one in spirit...just as we will be at the end of our flesh life.

You can't seriously mean that angels and humans are the same beings?

Why no....I just thought I'd throw that out there for the fun of it.

Of course I "seriously mean" that very thing. God's Word seriously tells us that very thing. :yes

 

[whirlwind]

Heb 2:5 Now it was not to angels that God subjected the world to come, of which we are speaking.
Heb 2:6 It has been testified somewhere, "What is man, that you are mindful of him, or the son of man, that you care for him?
Heb 2:7 You made him for a little while lower than the angels; you have crowned him with glory and honor,
Heb 2:8 putting everything in subjection under his feet." Now in putting everything in subjection to him, he left nothing outside his control. At present, we do not yet see everything in subjection to him.
Heb 2:9 But we see him who for a little while was made lower than the angels, namely Jesus, crowned with glory and honor because of the suffering of death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.

End of story. The verses are numerous against such teaching.

He was "made for a little while lower than the angels," when He was born in flesh. He was with God in the beginning, was born in His earthly flesh body so was then "lower than the angels" and now is waaaay above the angels.

Our body, our spirit body is part of our flesh body now. When we die physically our true spirit body steps out. We are back to what we were before being "born from above, born of water." A spirit, an angel.

 

[whirlwind]

I would disagree that "they are us and we are them."

It is true, that many places in the Bible angels looked like ordinary men. But that is only if their glory or radiance was "turned off."

After Christ's resurrection we read in Matt. 28:2 "And, behold, there was a great earthquake: for the angel of the Lord descended from heaven, and came and rolled back the stone from the door, and sat on it. His countenance was like lightning, and his raiment white as snow." KJV

Then in Luke 24:4-5 it is slightly different. The women came to annoint the body with spices and two men suddenly stood by them in shining garments. The women were afraid and bowed down to the ground.

While in the above account, Luke called them "men", in John's account he calls them "angels:"

Yes....they did interchangeably call them "angels and men." Why?

John 20:11 "But Mary stood without at the sepulchre weeping: and as she wept. she stooped down, [and looked] into the sepulchre, and seeth two angels in white sitting, one at the head, and the other at the feet, where the body of Jesus had lain." KJV.
Here, evidently not to frighten Mary, it only says they were in white----no"lightning like" appearance.

As for the definition of "angel", which is "aggelos" in the Greek, my Young's concordance lists the word being translated as "angel"--181 times, and "messenger"--7 times. In the KJV it is never translated as anything but "angel" or "messenger."

What are they? They are spirit beings who function as "messengers" for the Lord God;
and Satan as well, for we read of the "fire prepared for the devil and his angels." I take this to mean the "lake of fire" referred to in Revelation.
And in Rev. 12:7-9 it describes a war in heaven where Michael and his angels fight against Satan (the dragon) and his angels, and they were cast out of heaven to the earth.

So, my conclusion is with God's direction they can do most anything: they can look like ordinary men, eat human food, have their feet washed, have bodies of substance to wrestle with Jacob, etc.
Yet, even when appearing as men, they have supernatural power which can be used according to the will of God.

You are right, the halos and the wings and them looking like women are all fantasy, the work of artists.

As for Lot bowing down to them, IMO, that was the custom of the times, to bow as a greeting. It doesn't say he prostrated himself on the ground.

Have you ever been to Japan? Everyone bows when greeting one another.

I find this in the Scriptures concerning the end of this life in the flesh:

We live in this fleshly (soulish) body, but whether we are dead or alive when the Lord comes to meet us in the air, we will be changed to have spiritual bodies. Which, to me, means bodies fit for the celestials where no air is needed, gravity cannot hold us: we will have bodies like unto Christ's glorious body
(1 Cor. 15:35-50).

The Lord doesn't meet us in the air, as in the atmosphere. The Lord meets us in (air) as in spirit, pneuma...breath of life...our spirit bodies. And yes, we will have glorious bodies. That is the point of this thread. We are angels. Good and bad angels. Presently our spirit, angel, bodies are in our flesh bodies.

1 Cor. 15:51-54, "Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but will all be changed---in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality. When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the moral with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: 'Death has been swallowed up in victory.' "

[/quote]

We have always been since the very beginning. We were in these same spirit bodies in the previous age, in this present age the same spirit body is clothed with flesh and when we physically die, or this age ends....our same spirit body is what leaves the flesh shell behind. We never change, we have always been and will always be unless we are judged to die the second death...that of our spirit body and soul.

 

[whirlwind]

Add to the above....

• Hebrews 2:13-14 And again, "I will put my trust in Him." And again, "Behold, I and the children which God hath given Me." Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, He also Himself likewise took part of the same; that through death He might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

He came to earth partaking of "flesh and blood," as His children did!

 

[Free]

I don't believe I specifically said that we existed before, I'll have to go back over my replies to check.

You didn't refer to everyone but you did seem to refer to the disciples:

"Jesus was not from this world. Neither were the disciples. So where were they from?

Joh 8:23 And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world.

The word "of" there means "originate" or "from." They did not orginate from this world, i.e., they came from somewhere else."

However, as I stated, only Jesus pre-existed his physical birth. It is extremely important to understand that Jesus is the only one who is literally "from above". Everyone else is "from below," although men are "born from above". That is the only sense in which the disciples, or any one else, can be said to be "from above". The context of the passages in question makes this clear.

But, if we are sons of God, and sons of God are angels, then, that's what we will be after we are resurrected. Angels are spirits, nothing more, nothing less. We're going to be the same thing, and be able to do everything they can.

This is your main error in this discussion. You are falsely equating men and angles through the use of one phrase. Be very careful when using phrases such as "sons of God" when it is applied to men, angels, and Jesus; there are different nuances in meaning depending on whom it is applied to.

 

[Free]

Of course I "seriously mean" that very thing. God's Word seriously tells us that very thing.

No, it does not tell us that in any way whatsoever.

He was "made for a little while lower than the angels," when He was born in flesh. He was with God in the beginning, was born in His earthly flesh body so was then "lower than the angels" and now is waaaay above the angels.

Exactly, that is my point. Take that together with:

Phil 2:5-8, "5 Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus, 6 who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but made himself nothing, taking the form of a servant,being born in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross."

We can easily see that being "made a little lower than the angels" was when he was "born in the likeness of men...in human form". The shows an obvious differentiation between men and angels, men being "a little lower".

Our body, our spirit body is part of our flesh body now. When we die physically our true spirit body steps out. We are back to what we were before being "born from above, born of water." A spirit, an angel.

We do not have a "spirit body" and we certainly did not exist prior to physically being born. To say such is to side with Mormonism and is error, even heresy. That idea is found nowhere in Scripture.

Yes....they did interchangeably call them "angels and men." Why?

For the obvious reason that throughout Scripture angels appear in the forms of men. Nothing more.

The Lord meets us in (air) as in spirit, pneuma...breath of life...our spirit bodies. And yes, we will have glorious bodies. That is the point of this thread. We are angels. Good and bad angels. Presently our spirit, angel, bodies are in our flesh bodies.

Again, an idea found nowhere in Scripture.

We have always been since the very beginning. We were in these same spirit bodies in the previous age, in this present age the same spirit body is clothed with flesh and when we physically die, or this age ends....our same spirit body is what leaves the flesh shell behind. We never change, we have always been and will always be unless we are judged to die the second death...that of our spirit body and soul.

Heresy, plain and simple.

 

[whirlwind]

Of course I "seriously mean" that very thing. God's Word seriously tells us that very thing.

No, it does not tell us that in any way whatsoever.

He was "made for a little while lower than the angels," when He was born in flesh. He was with God in the beginning, was born in His earthly flesh body so was then "lower than the angels" and now is waaaay above the angels.

Exactly, that is my point. Take that together with:

Phil 2:5-8, "5 Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus, 6 who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but made himself nothing, taking the form of a servant,being born in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross."

We can easily see that being "made a little lower than the angels" was when he was "born in the likeness of men...in human form". The shows an obvious differentiation between men and angels, men being "a little lower".

Of course there is a difference in men and angels. Men are angels in flesh. Flesh feels pain, flesh ages, flesh perishes. Flesh is lower than the angels. Flesh bodies are lower (of the earth) than our spirit bodies.

Our body, our spirit body is part of our flesh body now. When we die physically our true spirit body steps out. We are back to what we were before being "born from above, born of water." A spirit, an angel.

We do not have a "spirit body" and we certainly did not exist prior to physically being born. To say such is to side with Mormonism and is error, even heresy. That idea is found nowhere in Scripture.

We don't have a spirit body? What do you picture the next age to be like Free? A bunch of willowy, whispy, puffs of clouds floating around?

Of course we existed before our physical birth.

• Romans 8:29 For whom He did foreknow, He also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.
  
  Ephesians 1:4 According as He hath chosen us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love:

And...I don't know diddly about Mormonism.

Yes....they did interchangeably call them "angels and men." Why?

For the obvious reason that throughout Scripture angels appear in the forms of men. Nothing more.

And...that means nothing to you?

The Lord meets us in (air) as in spirit, pneuma...breath of life...our spirit bodies. And yes, we will have glorious bodies. That is the point of this thread. We are angels. Good and bad angels. Presently our spirit, angel, bodies are in our flesh bodies.

Again, an idea found nowhere in Scripture.

Did you not read the SCRIPTURE contained in the OP?

We have always been since the very beginning. We were in these same spirit bodies in the previous age, in this present age the same spirit body is clothed with flesh and when we physically die, or this age ends....our same spirit body is what leaves the flesh shell behind. We never change, we have always been and will always be unless we are judged to die the second death...that of our spirit body and soul.

Heresy, plain and simple.

I'm sorry you feel that way. To me, it is obvious through His Word.

 

[Free]

Of course there is a difference in men and angels. Men are angels in flesh. Flesh feels pain, flesh ages, flesh perishes. Flesh is lower than the angels. Flesh bodies are lower (of the earth) than our spirit bodies.

No. Men are men and angels are angels. That distinction is made from the beginning to the end of Scripture.

We don't have a spirit body? What do you picture the next age to be like Free? A bunch of willowy, whispy, puffs of clouds floating around?

No. Following the example of Jesus' resurrection, who is the first fruits, and according to 1 Cor 15, we will have glorified physical bodies. We will not be spirit beings like the angels for the simple reason that we are not angels and never have been.

Of course we existed before our physical birth.

Romans 8:29 For whom He did foreknow, He also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Ephesians 1:4 According as He hath chosen us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love:

Foreknowledge does not in any way whatsoever mean that we preexisted.

And...I don't know diddly about Mormonism.

You're still falling into the same error as they.

Yes....they did interchangeably call them "angels and men." Why?

For the obvious reason that throughout Scripture angels appear in the forms of men. Nothing more.

And...that means nothing to you?

Don't you think it is pretty obvious that for a spirit being, an angel, to interact with man that it is only natural for them to take on human form? To say that the occasional interchanging of angels and men means we are angels is a gross twisting of Scripture.

Did you not read the SCRIPTURE contained in the OP?

Yes. But it is all the same twisting and misunderstanding of Scripture.

 

[whirlwind]

No. Men are men and angels are angels. That distinction is made from the beginning to the end of Scripture.

In the words of C.S. Lewis ~ You don't have a soul...You are a soul...You have a body ~

A difference in men and angels is a flesh body.

No. Following the example of Jesus' resurrection, who is the first fruits, and according to 1 Cor 15, we will have glorified physical bodies. We will not be spirit beings like the angels for the simple reason that we are not angels and never have been.

Flesh is gone! The glorified body is our spirit body.

• Ecclesiastes 3:20-21 All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again. Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?
  
  12:6-7 Or ever the silver cord be loosed, or the golden bowl be broken, or the pitcher be broken at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern. Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God Who gave it.

Foreknowledge does not in any way whatsoever mean that we preexisted.

How do you figure that? How does He foreknow what never was?

You're still falling into the same error as they.

:D Perhaps it is not the Morman's nor I falling into error on this particular topic.

Don't you think it is pretty obvious that for a spirit being, an angel, to interact with man that it is only natural for them to take on human form? To say that the occasional interchanging of angels and men means we are angels is a gross twisting of Scripture.

Consider.....

• Genesis 1:26 And God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, after Our likeness: and let them have dominion......

Is it a "gross twisting of Scripture" to understand that our flesh bodies are created to be "in their image?"

Yes. But it is all the same twisting and misunderstanding of Scripture.

Again...sorry you feel that way. But, okay....I'm an angel :angel3 and you're not. :tongue2

 

[researcher]

I don't believe I specifically said that we existed before, I'll have to go back over my replies to check.

You didn't refer to everyone but you did seem to refer to the disciples:

"Jesus was not from this world. Neither were the disciples. So where were they from?

Joh 8:23 And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world.

The word "of" there means "originate" or "from." They did not orginate from this world, i.e., they came from somewhere else."

However, as I stated, only Jesus pre-existed his physical birth. It is extremely important to understand that Jesus is the only one who is literally "from above". Everyone else is "from below," although men are "born from above". That is the only sense in which the disciples, or any one else, can be said to be "from above". The context of the passages in question makes this clear.

But, if we are sons of God, and sons of God are angels, then, that's what we will be after we are resurrected. Angels are spirits, nothing more, nothing less. We're going to be the same thing, and be able to do everything they can.

This is your main error in this discussion. You are falsely equating men and angles through the use of one phrase. Be very careful when using phrases such as "sons of God" when it is applied to men, angels, and Jesus; there are different nuances in meaning depending on whom it is applied to.

The passage below is literal. It means what it says. Jesus was not from this world, and neither were the disciples.

Joh 17:14 I have given them thy word; and the world hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
Joh 17:15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them from the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil one.
Joh 17:16 They are not of the world even as I am not of the world.

The word "of" used in those verses means "origin," i.e. "from."

G1537
á¼Âκ, á¼Âξ
ek ex
ek, ex
A primary preposition denoting origin (the point whence motion or action proceeds), from, out (of place, time or cause; literally or figuratively; direct or remote):

The disciples and Jesus did not originate from this world, i.e. they did not come from this world. They came from somewhere else, as in, from above.

 

[Free]

The disciples and Jesus did not originate from this world, i.e. they did not come from this world. They came from somewhere else, as in, from above.

Yes, the disciples are from this world. As I stated already, you are misunderstanding the use of "from above". Enough of this twisting of Scripture, let's look at the context:

Joh 17:5 And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed.
Joh 17:6 "I have manifested your name to the people whom you gave me out of the world. Yours they were, and you gave them to me, and they have kept your word.
Joh 17:7 Now they know that everything that you have given me is from you.
Joh 17:8 For I have given them the words that you gave me, and they have received them and have come to know in truth that I came from you; and they have believed that you sent me.
Joh 17:9 I am praying for them. I am not praying for the world but for those whom you have given me, for they are yours.
Joh 17:10 All mine are yours, and yours are mine, and I am glorified in them.
Joh 17:11 And I am no longer in the world, but they are in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, keep them in your name, which you have given me, that they may be one, even as we are one.
Joh 17:12 While I was with them, I kept them in your name, which you have given me. I have guarded them, and not one of them has been lost except the son of destruction, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.
Joh 17:13 But now I am coming to you, and these things I speak in the world, that they may have my joy fulfilled in themselves.
Joh 17:14 I have given them your word, and the world has hated them because they are not of the world, just as I am not of the world.
Joh 17:15 I do not ask that you take them out of the world, but that you keep them from the evil one.
Joh 17:16 They are not of the world, just as I am not of the world.
Joh 17:17 Sanctify them in the truth; your word is truth.
Joh 17:18 As you sent me into the world, so I have sent them into the world.

It cannot be more clear that:

1. Jesus is the only one who was with the Father and is returning to the Father.
2. that the disciples are from the world, as verse 6 clearly states
3. when Jesus refers to the disciples as being "not of the world," it is referring to what is stated in verse 8--they believed. Spiritually speaking, they were not of the world because of their belief in Jesus.

Take things in context so you don't fall into such error. There is no evidence in the entirety of Scripture that any one other than Jesus existed prior to being born on this planet.

 

[researcher]

The disciples and Jesus did not originate from this world, i.e. they did not come from this world. They came from somewhere else, as in, from above.

Yes, the disciples are from this world. As I stated already, you are misunderstanding the use of "from above". Enough of this twisting of Scripture, let's look at the context:

Joh 17:5 And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed.
Joh 17:6 "I have manifested your name to the people whom you gave me out of the world. Yours they were, and you gave them to me, and they have kept your word.
Joh 17:7 Now they know that everything that you have given me is from you.
Joh 17:8 For I have given them the words that you gave me, and they have received them and have come to know in truth that I came from you; and they have believed that you sent me.
Joh 17:9 I am praying for them. I am not praying for the world but for those whom you have given me, for they are yours.
Joh 17:10 All mine are yours, and yours are mine, and I am glorified in them.
Joh 17:11 And I am no longer in the world, but they are in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, keep them in your name, which you have given me, that they may be one, even as we are one.
Joh 17:12 While I was with them, I kept them in your name, which you have given me. I have guarded them, and not one of them has been lost except the son of destruction, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.
Joh 17:13 But now I am coming to you, and these things I speak in the world, that they may have my joy fulfilled in themselves.
Joh 17:14 I have given them your word, and the world has hated them because they are not of the world, just as I am not of the world.
Joh 17:15 I do not ask that you take them out of the world, but that you keep them from the evil one.
Joh 17:16 They are not of the world, just as I am not of the world.
Joh 17:17 Sanctify them in the truth; your word is truth.
Joh 17:18 As you sent me into the world, so I have sent them into the world.

It cannot be more clear that:

1. Jesus is the only one who was with the Father and is returning to the Father.
2. that the disciples are from the world, as verse 6 clearly states
3. when Jesus refers to the disciples as being "not of the world," it is referring to what is stated in verse 8--they believed. Spiritually speaking, they were not of the world because of their belief in Jesus.

Take things in context so you don't fall into such error. There is no evidence in the entirety of Scripture that any one other than Jesus existed prior to being born on this planet.

Their bodies were obviously from this world. We all have human parents. But their spirits were not.

As for someone else existing before, Elijah.

Now, you really have to take apart this verse and think about it.

Heb 2:14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;

What children? All children have flesh and blood. Why did they have to "partake" of flesh and blood? Everyone who is born on earth has flesh and blood. So what's Paul saying? They didn't have flesh and blood but they had to partake of it?

Heb 2:16 For verily not to angels doth he give help, but he giveth help to the seed of Abraham.
Heb 2:17 Wherefore it behooved him in all things to be made like unto his brethren, that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people.

Jesus had brothers on earth before he showed up in person? Jesus was a spirit. How did he have flesh and blood brothers on earth? A spirit's brothers and sisters are spirits, a human's brothers and sisters have flesh.

 

[NIGHTMARE]

The disciples and Jesus did not originate from this world, i.e. they did not come from this world. They came from somewhere else, as in, from above.

Yes, the disciples are from this world. As I stated already, you are misunderstanding the use of "from above". Enough of this twisting of Scripture, let's look at the context:

Joh 17:5 And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed.
Joh 17:6 "I have manifested your name to the people whom you gave me out of the world. Yours they were, and you gave them to me, and they have kept your word.
Joh 17:7 Now they know that everything that you have given me is from you.
Joh 17:8 For I have given them the words that you gave me, and they have received them and have come to know in truth that I came from you; and they have believed that you sent me.
Joh 17:9 I am praying for them. I am not praying for the world but for those whom you have given me, for they are yours.
Joh 17:10 All mine are yours, and yours are mine, and I am glorified in them.
Joh 17:11 And I am no longer in the world, but they are in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, keep them in your name, which you have given me, that they may be one, even as we are one.
Joh 17:12 While I was with them, I kept them in your name, which you have given me. I have guarded them, and not one of them has been lost except the son of destruction, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.
Joh 17:13 But now I am coming to you, and these things I speak in the world, that they may have my joy fulfilled in themselves.
Joh 17:14 I have given them your word, and the world has hated them because they are not of the world, just as I am not of the world.
Joh 17:15 I do not ask that you take them out of the world, but that you keep them from the evil one.
Joh 17:16 They are not of the world, just as I am not of the world.
Joh 17:17 Sanctify them in the truth; your word is truth.
Joh 17:18 As you sent me into the world, so I have sent them into the world.

It cannot be more clear that:

1. Jesus is the only one who was with the Father and is returning to the Father.
2. that the disciples are from the world, as verse 6 clearly states
3. when Jesus refers to the disciples as being "not of the world," it is referring to what is stated in verse 8--they believed. Spiritually speaking, they were not of the world because of their belief in Jesus.

Take things in context so you don't fall into such error. There is no evidence in the entirety of Scripture that any one other than Jesus existed prior to being born on this planet.

Yes, the disciples are from this world. As I stated already, you are misunderstanding the use of "from above". Enough of this twisting of Scripture, let's look at the context:

It really seems like your misunderstanding the cause and action of this age.....We are in flesh bodys now because of what happened in the first earth age....Thus we are born from above.....Its the same reason God was able to tell Jeremiah he was t be a prophet before he was even born....

1 verses ,,,,just one simple verse destroys your whole doctrine of not existing before the flesh...But dont be mislead many more verses tell of us living before we were born of woman.....