Annihilationism, do the Wicked Perish?

[Carry_Your_Name]

So God could not create from nothing, nor could He destroy? You need to reevaluate your 'faith' in scientist over God. He did and He can...

Friend, where is any of this in my post? I said The universe could not created ITSELF from nothing, nor could it be destroyed into nothing by ITSELF. You need to reevaluate your false dilemma of “faith vs science”, because real science is in agreement with the Bible, this one in particular proves the necessity for a beginning and a creator of the universe!

 

[Butch5]

Thank you for your response.

You're welcome!

 

[Butch5]

202 posts and still no one has shown a passage of Scripture showing that the penalty for sin is eternal torment.

 

[Alfred Persson]

202 posts and still no one has shown a passage of Scripture showing that the penalty for sin is eternal torment.

The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. (Rev. 20:10 NKJ)

 

[Butch5]

The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. (Rev. 20:10 NKJ)

This doesn't say anything about the penalty for sin.

 

[Alfred Persson]

This doesn't say anything about the penalty for sin.

That's true. But elementary logic requires they are not sinless, that the God of Justice would not torment them for all eternity unless it was "the penalty" for their sin.

Moreover, scriptures testify about all three, that they were exceedingly sinful.

Therefore, both logically and empirically, this is the text that says the penalty for the sins these three are guilty of, is eternal punishment, eternal torment...day and night forever and ever.

 

[Butch5]

That's true. But elementary logic requires they are not sinless, that the God of Justice would not torment them for all eternity unless it was "the penalty" for their sin.

Moreover, scriptures testify about all three, that they were exceedingly sinful.

Therefore, both logically and empirically, this is the text that says the penalty for the sins these three are guilty of, is eternal punishment, eternal torment...day and night forever and ever.

That's not a necessary inference. There could be many reasons they're thrown into the fire. There no reason for us to draw such a conclusion when Scripture repeatedly states the penalty fir sin is death. From Genesis to Revelation the penalty is death.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

This doesn't say anything about the penalty for sin.

Because that's the CONSEQUENCE of sin, most people are not intelligent enough to know the difference.

 

[Alfred Persson]

That's not a necessary inference. There could be many reasons they're thrown into the fire. There no reason for us to draw such a conclusion when Scripture repeatedly states the penalty fir sin is death. From Genesis to Revelation the penalty is death.

Incorrect, the inference is necessary. The sin of the Beast is declaring he alone is to be worshipped; the False Prophet and Satan both empowered and supported him in that. And the sin of worshipping the beast merits eternal torment to all who do it in addition to them:

"And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name." (Rev. 14:11 NKJ)

In addition, the definition of "death" as cessation of all life, isn't scriptural. Adam "died" the moment he ate from the tree of knowledge. Every soul that survives physical death, disproves death is annihilation.

9 When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held.
10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, "How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?"
11 Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed. (Rev. 6:9-11 NKJ)

 

[Butch5]

Because that's the CONSEQUENCE of sin, most people are not intelligent enough to know the difference.

Then post Scripture showing it.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Then post Scripture showing it.

Wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it.

 

[Butch5]

Wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it.

It doesn't say the penalty for sin is eternal torment. It does, however, tell us that the broad way leads to destruction. It says destruction, not eternal torment .

 

[Randy]

There are "eternal" consequences for the wicked.
If God can destroy spirit He doesn't appear to do so.

"tormented" in the lake of fire suggests awareness, not ceasing to be.
If God punishes angels who sinned in this manner why would it differ for man who died in their sin?

Rev 20:10
And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

It doesn't say the penalty for sin is eternal torment. It does, however, tell us that the broad way leads to destruction. It says destruction, not eternal torment .

That’s where Rev. 20:10 fits in, which you willingly ignored.

 

[Butch5]

Incorrect, the inference is necessary. The sin of the Beast is declaring he alone is to be worshipped; the False Prophet and Satan both empowered and supported him in that. And the sin of worshipping the beast merits eternal torment to all who do it in addition to them:

This is simply an opinion.

"And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name." (Rev. 14:11 NKJ)

This isn't talking about the Beast, the False Prophet, or Satan. It's talking about people. People who are alive.

11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name. 12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

The Holy Bible: King James Version, Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), Re 14:11–12.

Verse 12 tells us that the saints are in the same locations as those in verse 11. Is it your contention that the Saints are also in the Lake of Fire. Notice, too, that these people are worshipping the Beast, they are still alive.

 

[Butch5]

In addition, the definition of "death" as cessation of all life, isn't scriptural. Adam "died" the moment he ate from the tree of knowledge. Every soul that survives physical death, disproves death is annihilation.

Adam did die the day he ate of the fruit. It's how the Bible uses the word day. David said,

For a thousand years in thy sight
Are but as yesterday when it is past,
And as a watch in the night.

Peter alludes to this,

8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

The Holy Bible: King James Version, Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), 2 Pe 3:8.

Adam lived for 930 years, just short of one day. This is both the ancient Jewish and early Christian understanding.

29. And at the close of the nineteenth jubilee, in the seventh week in the sixth year (930 A.M.) thereof, Adam died, and all his sons buried him in the land of his creation,27 and he was the first to be buried28 in the earth. 30. And he lacked seventy years of one thousand years; for one thousand years are as one day in the testimony of the heavens and therefore was it written concerning the tree of knowledge: "On the day that ye eat thereof ye will die."29 For this reason he did not complete the years of this day; for he died during it.

Book of Jubilees


Irenaeus, Against Heresies, Book 5, Chapter 23

CHAP. XXIII.—THE DEVIL IS WELL PRACTISED IN FALSEHOOD, BY WHICH ADAM HAVING BEEN LED ASTRAY, SINNED ON THE SIXTH DAY OF THE CREATION, IN WHICH DAY ALSO HE HAS BEEN RENEWED BY CHRIST.

1. He had indeed been already accustomed to lie against God, for the purpose of leading men astray. For at the beginning, when God had given to man a variety of things for food, while He commanded him not to eat of one tree only, as the Scripture tells us that God said to Adam: “From every tree which is in the garden thou shalt eat food; but from the tree of knowledge of good and evil, from this ye shall not eat: for in the day that ye shall eat of it, ye shall die by death;” he then, lying against the Lord, tempted man, as the Scripture says that the serpent said to the woman: “Has God indeed said this, Ye shall not eat from every tree of the garden?”5 And when she had exposed the falsehood, and simply related the command, as He had said, “From every tree of the garden we shall eat; but of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die:” when he had [thus] learned from the woman the command of God, having brought his cunning into play, he finally deceived her by a falsehood, saying, “Ye shall not die by death; for God knew that in the day ye shall eat of it your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.”7 In the first place, then, in the garden of God he disputed about God, as if God was not there, for he was ignorant of the greatness of God; and then, in the next place, after he had learned from the woman that God had said that they should die if they tasted the aforesaid tree, opening his mouth, he uttered the third falsehood,” Ye shall not die by death.” But that God was true, and the serpent a liar, was proved by the result, death having passed upon them who had eaten. For along with the fruit they did also fall under the power of death, because they did eat in disobedience; and disobedience to God entails death. Wherefore, as they became forfeit to death, from that [moment] they were handed over to it.
2. Thus, then, in the day that they did eat, in the same did they die, and became death’s debtors, since it was one day of the creation. For it is said, “There was made in the evening, and there was made in the morning, one day.” Now in this same day that they did eat, in that also did they die. But according to the cycle and progress of the days, after which one is termed first, another second, and another third, if anybody seeks diligently to learn upon what day out of the seven it was that Adam died, he will find it by examining the dispensation of the Lord. For by summing up in Himself the whole human race from the beginning to the end, He has also summed up its death. From this it is clear that the Lord suffered death, in obedience to His Father, upon that day on which Adam died while he disobeyed God. Now he died on the same day in which he did eat. For God said, “In that day on which ye shall eat of it, ye shall die by death.” The Lord, therefore, recapitulating in Himself this day, underwent His sufferings upon the day preceding the Sabbath, that is, the sixth day of the creation, on which day man was created; thus granting him a second creation by means of His passion, which is that [creation] out of death. And there are some, again, who relegate the death of Adam to the thousandth year; for since “a day of the Lord is as a thousand years,” he did not overstep the thousand years, but died within them, thus bearing out the sentence of his sin. Whether, therefore, with respect to disobedience, which is death; whether [we consider] that, on account of that, they were delivered over to death, and made debtors to it; whether with respect to [the fact that on] one and the same day on which they ate they also died (for it is one day of the creation); whether [we regard this point], that, with respect to this cycle of days, they died on the day in which they did also eat, that is, the day of the preparation, which is termed “the pure supper,” that is, the sixth day of the feast, which the Lord also exhibited when He suffered on that day; or whether [we reflect] that he (Adam) did not overstep the thousand years, but died within their limit,—it follows that, in regard to all these significations, God is indeed true. For they died who tasted of the tree; and the serpent is proved a liar and a murderer, as the Lord said of him: “For he is a murderer from the beginning, and the truth is not in him.”


Irenaeus of Lyons, “Irenæus against Heresies,” in The Apostolic Fathers with Justin Martyr and Irenaeus, ed. Alexander Roberts, James Donaldson, and A. Cleveland Coxe, vol. 1, The Ante-Nicene Fathers (Buffalo, NY: Christian Literature Company, 1885), 551–552.

This was both the Early Christian and Ancient Jewish understanding. That this is the correct understanding can be see in the actually event in Scripture.

17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life; 18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field; 19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

The Holy Bible: King James Version, Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), Ge 3:16–19.

We see that the penalty for Adam's disobedience (sin) was that he would return to the dust. That is his physical death. Death is the cessation of life.

9 When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held.
10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, "How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?"
11 Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed. (Rev. 6:9-11 NKJ)

Since the first four seals were allegories, it follows that this one is too. That we know that dead people can't speak, we should be able to see that this is figurative language. That we see this figurative language used of the martyrs elsewhere also shows that this is figurative language.

10 And he said, What hast thou done? the voice of thy brother’s blood crieth unto me from the ground

The Holy Bible: King James Version, Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), Ge 4:10.

Can blood also speak?

In Rev 6 we see the martyrs are told to wait for their brethren. Then chapter 20 we see these brethren. They are reigning with Christ. So, the souls in Reve 20 are resurrected Saints, obviously in the flesh. This fits the definition of the word soul. Why then would we understand the souls in Rev 6 as disembodied ghosts?

 

[Alfred Persson]

This is simply an opinion.

This isn't talking about the Beast, the False Prophet, or Satan. It's talking about people. People who are alive.

11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name. 12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

The Holy Bible: King James Version, Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), Re 14:11–12.

Verse 12 tells us that the saints are in the same locations as those in verse 11. Is it your contention that the Saints are also in the Lake of Fire. Notice, too, that these people are worshipping the Beast, they are still alive.

No, its a necessary inference. Rejecting the proof you demanded as an opinion, isn't a win.

Verse 12 is about Christians, warning them to remain loyal. Verse 11 proves eternal torment is the punishment for worshiping the Beast. Promoting false worship why the Devil, Beast and False prophet get eternal torment in Rev. 20:10

The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. (Rev. 20:10 NKJ)
You are part right.

Scripture does teach eternal destruction for sin also, but not for those guilty of eternal sin:

"but he who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is subject to eternal condemnation "--
(Mk. 3:29 NKJ)

How long one's "part" will be in the lake of fire (Rev. 21:8) is according to works if their names are not in the "Book of Life":

12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books.
13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works.
14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire. (Rev. 20:12-21:1 NKJ)

When the wicked are cast into the lake of fire, some immediately are destroyed by the fire. Others persist for a time and then are burnt up. A Jewish tradition suggested 12 months, but that's unlikely as its "according to works". Others, those guilty of eternal sins, suffer eternally. Christ warned their "worm does not die" (Mk. (:44, 46, 48).

The unquenchable fire symbolizes both destruction and torment. The Lake of fire is "the second death", meaning there is no return, no resurrection. Those who "die the death" are punished forever.

 

[Butch5]

That’s where Rev. 20:10 fits in, which you willingly ignored.

10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

The Holy Bible: King James Version, Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), Re 20:10.

Where does this say anything about mankind. Rather than me ignoring it. Consider that maybe you guys are reading something into it that simply isn't there.

Also, "εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας τῶν αἰώνων." doesn't mean forever and ever. It means unto the ages of the ages. Forever and ever doesn't even make sense. If forever is eternity, what is ever? There can't be any time after eternity or eternity isn't eternity. Let's read it that way. They will be tormented for eternity and eternity. That doesn't even make sense. It does seem as though the "ever" in forever and ever is being used in the sense of a superlative, however, it doesn't fit the definition of a superlative. A superlative requires several of degree of comparison. Since there are no degrees of difference in time in the word eternity or forever, ever can't be a superlative. This leads to the conclusion that the "ever" in forever and ever is used as hyperbole. Hyperbole is a figure of speech that exaggerates something to the extreme to make a point. Thus, forever and ever would be a really long time. However, The text uses ages of ages. The length of this time would be determined by how long God has made those ages.

 

[Butch5]

No, its a necessary inference. Rejecting the proof you demanded as an opinion, isn't a win.

You haven't presented any proof. You simply posted a passage that say three beings are tossed into the Lake of Fire. The passage says nothing about the penalty for sin. You're simply assuming that.

Verse 12 is about Christians, warning them to remain loyal. Verse 11 proves eternal torment is the punishment for worshiping the Beast. Promoting false worship why the Devil, Beast and False prophet get eternal torment in Rev. 20:10

They're in the same place. Is it your contention that the redeemed will be in the Lake of Fire?

The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. (Rev. 20:10 NKJ)
You are part right.

Scripture does teach eternal destruction for sin also, but not for those guilty of eternal sin:

Isn't all sin eternal? Can one go back in time and undo their sins?

"but he who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is subject to eternal condemnation "--
(Mk. 3:29 NKJ)

How long one's "part" will be in the lake of fire (Rev. 21:8) is according to works if their names are not in the "Book of Life":

12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God, and books were opened. And another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to their works, by the things which were written in the books.
13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one according to his works.
14 Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire. (Rev. 20:12-21:1 NKJ)

When the wicked are cast into the lake of fire, some immediately are destroyed by the fire. Others persist for a time and then are burnt up. A Jewish tradition suggested 12 months, but that's unlikely as its "according to works". Others, those guilty of eternal sins, suffer eternally. Christ warned their "worm does not die" (Mk. (:44, 46, 48).

The unquenchable fire symbolizes both destruction and torment. The Lake of fire is "the second death", meaning there is no return, no resurrection. Those who "die the death" are punished forever.

If you look at Isaiah and the unquenchable fire, it says that it is corpses burning in that fire, not living beings.

22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make,
Shall remain before me, saith the LORD,
So shall your seed and your name remain.
23 And it shall come to pass, that tfrom one new moon to another,
And from one sabbath to another,
uShall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.
24 And they shall go forth, and look
Upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me:
For xtheir worm shall not die,
Neither shall their fire be quenched;
And they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.


The Holy Bible: King James Version, Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), Is 66:22–24.

 

[Butch5]

There are "eternal" consequences for the wicked.
If God can destroy spirit He doesn't appear to do so.

"tormented" in the lake of fire suggests awareness, not ceasing to be.
If God punishes angels who sinned in this manner why would it differ for man who died in their sin?

Rev 20:10
And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Because God said it.

Ezekiel 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die. (Ezek. 18:4 KJV)