Annihilationism, do the Wicked Perish?

[Alfred Persson]

You haven't presented any proof. You simply posted a passage that say three beings are tossed into the Lake of Fire. The passage says nothing about the penalty for sin. You're simply assuming that.

They're in the same place. Is it your contention that the redeemed will be in the Lake of Fire?

Isn't all sin eternal? Can one go back in time and undo their sins?

If you look at Isaiah and the unquenchable fire, it says that it is corpses burning in that fire, not living beings.

22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make,
Shall remain before me, saith the LORD,
So shall your seed and your name remain.
23 And it shall come to pass, that tfrom one new moon to another,
And from one sabbath to another,
uShall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.
24 And they shall go forth, and look
Upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me:
For xtheir worm shall not die,
Neither shall their fire be quenched;
And they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.


The Holy Bible: King James Version, Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), Is 66:22–24.

Your first claim, logically speaking, also applies to your citations of scripture. One isn't to think what can be inferred from "carcasses."

AND nothing I said implies the redeemed are in the lake of fire. No wonder you avoid inference!

Eternal sin is sin having eternal consequences, so "No, all sin is not eternal." Some sin merits eternal torment as Jesus said.

What can be deduced from "carcasses" is the resurrection body of the wicked won't be like the TV show "the Walking Dead", they won't be walking. They will just lie there, in heaps burning in flames like rubbish, and their worm will not die implying the carcasses exist forever, tormenting the souls imprisoned within them.

 

[Butch5]

It's one thing to be taught wrong, most Christians are with the state of the churches today. However, when it's brought to our attention we really should consider it. Think about what you guys are saying. You're essentially saying God lied. God said through Ezekiel, 'the soul that sins shall die.' You guys are saying, no, that's wrong, the soul that sins shall live and suffer eternal torment.

 

[Butch5]

Your first claim, logically speaking, also applies to your citations of scripture. One isn't to think what can be inferred from "carcasses."

We don't have to infer anything. The definition of carcasses is pretty straight forward.

AND nothing I said implies the redeemed are in the lake of fire. No wonder you avoid inference!

You posted Rev 14:11 as evidence of the punishment. Verse 12 says the saints are at the same location. So, if verse 11 is an indication of the Lake of Fire, then it would mean the saints are also there. Since we know that the saints aren't in the Lake of Fire, we know that 14:11 isn't speaking of the Lake of Fire.

Eternal sin is sin having eternal consequences, so "No, all sin is not eternal." Some sin merits eternal torment as Jesus said.

Can you name one sin that is not eternal? Is there a sin whose consequence is not eternal?

What can be deduced from "carcasses" is the resurrection body of the wicked won't be like the TV show "the Walking Dead", they won't be walking. They will just lie there, in heaps burning in flames like rubbish, and their worm will not die implying the carcasses exist forever, tormenting the souls imprisoned within them.

A carcass is a dead body. A living soul is a living body. A soul is not something in the body, it is the body. The man created from the dust of the earth, when infused with the breath of God, became a living soul. The passage doesn't say a soul was put into the man, it says the man "became" a living soul That means that one cannot have a soul without a body.

. 7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

The Holy Bible: King James Version, Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), Ge 2:6–7.

The New King James makes it even clearer.

7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.

The New King James Version (Nashville: Thomas Nelson, 1982), Ge 2:7.

As we see from this, a soul is a living being. It consists of all that went into it. That includes the body.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

The Holy Bible: King James Version, Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), Re 20:10.

Where does this say anything about mankind. Rather than me ignoring it. Consider that maybe you guys are reading something into it that simply isn't there.

Also, "εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας τῶν αἰώνων." doesn't mean forever and ever. It means unto the ages of the ages. Forever and ever doesn't even make sense. If forever is eternity, what is ever? There can't be any time after eternity or eternity isn't eternity. Let's read it that way. They will be tormented for eternity and eternity. That doesn't even make sense. It does seem as though the "ever" in forever and ever is being used in the sense of a superlative, however, it doesn't fit the definition of a superlative. A superlative requires several of degree of comparison. Since there are no degrees of difference in time in the word eternity or forever, ever can't be a superlative. This leads to the conclusion that the "ever" in forever and ever is used as hyperbole. Hyperbole is a figure of speech that exaggerates something to the extreme to make a point. Thus, forever and ever would be a really long time. However, The text uses ages of ages. The length of this time would be determined by how long God has made those ages.

This is not hyperbole. In Rev. 22:5 it also says that the saints shall reign forever and ever, tell me, which Scripture portion states or implies that their reign in New Jerusalem will come to an end one day? I pointed it out before that there won’t be time in New Jerusalem, God is not bound by time, he is outside of time, suggesting otherwise is putting a time limit on God himself.

Also, what’s your definition of torment? Scripture is clear that the wicked will be cast into the Lake of Fire, not in 20:10, but 20:15 and 21:8. They will be barred from New Jerusalem (21:27), only the righteous may enter. If that’s not torment, I don’t know what is.

Anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the Lake of Fire.

The cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the Lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.

 

[Butch5]

This is not hyperbole. In Rev. 22:5 it also says that the saints shall reign forever and ever, tell me, which Scripture portion states or implies that their reign in New Jerusalem will come to an end one day? I pointed it out before that there won’t be time in New Jerusalem, God is not bound by time, he is outside of time, suggesting otherwise is putting a time limit on God himself.

Sure! Jesus doesn't reign forever, therefore the saints can't reign with Him forever, thus proving it's hyperbole.

18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished. 19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable. 20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. 21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ’s at his coming. 24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. 28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all

The Holy Bible: King James Version, Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), 1 Co 15:18–28.

Here Paul tells us that Christ will reign until all enemies are put under His feet. Then He turns the Kingdom over to God, the Father, and He Himself is subject to God, the Father. The Father is the one who reigns for eternity.

Also, what’s your definition of torment? Scripture is clear that the wicked will be cast into the Lake of Fire, not in 20:10, but 20:15 and 21:8. They will be barred from New Jerusalem (21:27), only the righteous may enter. If that’s not torment, I don’t know what is.

Anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the Lake of Fire.

The cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the Lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.

I'm not sure what you mean by my definition. I don't get to make up my own definition. I have to use the one in the dictionary. Yes, the wicked will be cast into the Lake of Fire, which is what? The SECOND death. They die a second time. Thus, Jesus' description of Gehenna when He quoted from Isaiah 66 where the corpses are burning. They're not living souls, they're corpses.

 

[Randy]

Because God said it.

Ezekiel 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die. (Ezek. 18:4 KJV)

Its in the meaning of death we will disagree.
Being consigned to the lake of fire is called the 2nd death.
In that regard I read no rest for them as in tormented day and night forever.
Rev 21:8
But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.”

 

[Butch5]

Its in the meaning of death we will disagree.
Being consigned to the lake of fire is called the 2nd death.
In that regard I read no rest for them as in tormented day and night forever.
Rev 21:8
But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.”

But we don't get to make up our own definition of words. All of the dictionaries are pretty much the same. Death is the cessation of life. It is called the second death. It's the second death because it's like the first one. If it's living eternally it's the second life, not death. The second of something has to be the same as the first or it's not the second, it's something else. Life and death are two different things, therefore one can't be the second of the other. Also, the word forever is mistranslated. I addressed this in post 218

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Sure! Jesus doesn't reign forever, therefore the saints can't reign with Him forever, thus proving it's hyperbole.

That’s blatant denial of the Scripture. In New Jerusalem, there’s no sun or moon, Jesus becomes the light, all nations walk in that light, (Rev. 21:23-24) and 22:5 clearly says, they shall reign FOREVER AND EVER, referring to his servants, the nations in 22:2-3. Your “therefore” is your own baseless assumption.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

I'm not sure what you mean by my definition. I don't get to make up my own definition. I have to use the one in the dictionary. Yes, the wicked will be cast into the Lake of Fire, which is what? The SECOND death. They die a second time. Thus, Jesus' description of Gehenna when He quoted from Isaiah 66 where the corpses are burning. They're not living souls, they're corpses.

You’re indeed making up your own definition. Corpses are corpses, already dead, burning in Gehenna is still the first death, the process of dust returning to dust. The real second death is in the Lake of Fire, there’s no mention of Gehenna in Rev. 20-21. In Rev. 21:1 it says a NEW heaven and a NEW earth, the first has passed away, so how could such “corpses” still burn in the valley of Hinnom when the place has already passed away?

 

[Butch5]

That’s blatant denial of the Scripture. In New Jerusalem, there’s no sun or moon, Jesus becomes the light, all nations walk in that light, (Rev. 21:23-24) and 22:5 clearly says, they shall reign FOREVER AND EVER, referring to his servants, the nations in 22:2-3. Your “therefore” is your own baseless assumption.

Why didn't you post the whole post? It's not me that's in denial my friend. I gave you Paul's words.

Sure! Jesus doesn't reign forever, therefore the saints can't reign with Him forever, thus proving it's hyperbole.


These are the words of the apostle Paul.

18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished. 19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable. 20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. 21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ’s at his coming. 24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. 28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all

The Holy Bible: King James Version, Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), 1 Co 15:18–28.

Here Paul tells us that Christ will reign until all enemies are put under His feet. Then He turns the Kingdom over to God, the Father, and He Himself is subject to God, the Father. The Father is the one who reigns for eternity.

So, as you can see, they don't reign forever and ever.

 

[Alfred Persson]

We don't have to infer anything. The definition of carcasses is pretty straight forward.

You posted Rev 14:11 as evidence of the punishment. Verse 12 says the saints are at the same location. So, if verse 11 is an indication of the Lake of Fire, then it would mean the saints are also there. Since we know that the saints aren't in the Lake of Fire, we know that 14:11 isn't speaking of the Lake of Fire.

Can you name one sin that is not eternal? Is there a sin whose consequence is not eternal?

A carcass is a dead body. A living soul is a living body. A soul is not something in the body, it is the body. The man created from the dust of the earth, when infused with the breath of God, became a living soul. The passage doesn't say a soul was put into the man, it says the man "became" a living soul That means that one cannot have a soul without a body.

. 7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

The Holy Bible: King James Version, Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), Ge 2:6–7.

The New King James makes it even clearer.

7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.

The New King James Version (Nashville: Thomas Nelson, 1982), Ge 2:7.

As we see from this, a soul is a living being. It consists of all that went into it. That includes the body.

Your inferences ignore plain scripture. In the New Heavens and New Earth, after New Jerusalem has descended and God's dwelling is with men, Gehenna/Lake of Fire still persists, "without"...."outside" the city:

21:1 Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea.
2 Then I, John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, "Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God.
4 "And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away."
5 Then He who sat on the throne said, "Behold, I make all things new." And He said to me, "Write, for these words are true and faithful."
6 And He said to me, "It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. I will give of the fountain of the water of life freely to him who thirsts.
7 "He who overcomes shall inherit all things, and I will be his God and he shall be My son.
8 "But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death." (Rev. 21:1-8
NKJ)

14 Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city.
15 But outside are dogs and sorcerers and sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and whoever loves and practices a lie. (Rev. 22:14-15 NKJ)

While the city exists, "outside are" the wicked being punished.

That is also implied by Isaiah, the redeemed can look upon the carcasses of the wicked after the "new heavens and the new earth" are created:

22 "For as the new heavens and the new earth Which I will make shall remain before Me," says the LORD, "So shall your descendants and your name remain.
23 And it shall come to pass That from one New Moon to another, And from one Sabbath to another, All flesh shall come to worship before Me," says the LORD.
24 "And they shall go forth and look Upon the corpses of the men Who have transgressed against Me. For their worm does not die, And their fire is not quenched. They shall be an abhorrence to all flesh." (Isa. 66:22-24 NKJ)

Your inference these are dead bodies only (corpses) without the wicked soul being punished imprisoned within, is contradicted by Rev. 22:15, where they are referred to as still "living".

Moreover, if everyone in the lake of fire were annihilated, then its destruction should logically follow as its purpose for existence is no more. But nothing in Scripture suggests Gehenna aka "Lake of Fire" will cease to exist.

 

[Butch5]

You’re indeed making up your own definition. Corpses are corpses, already dead, burning in Gehenna is still the first death, the process of dust returning to dust. The real second death is in the Lake of Fire, there’s no mention of Gehenna in Rev. 20-21. In Rev. 21:1 it says a NEW heaven and a NEW earth, the first has passed away, so how could such “corpses” still burn in the valley of Hinnom when the place has already passed away?

A study of Scripture reveals that the creation will be restored. The New Jerusalem is the current one restored. Isaiah 40 on is about the restoration.


For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth:
And the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.
18 But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create:
For, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy.
19 And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people:
And the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying.
20 There shall be no more thence an infant of days,
Nor an old man that hath not filled his days:


The Holy Bible: King James Version, Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), Is 65:17–20.

The Hebrew word translated "new" means, to make fresh, or to restore. Peter likewise speaks of this.

17 “Yet now, brethren, I know that you did it in ignorance, as did also your rulers. 18 But those things which God foretold by the mouth of all His prophets, that the Christ would suffer, He has thus fulfilled. 19 Repent therefore and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, so that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord, 20 and that He may send Jesus Christ, who was preached to you before, 21 whom heaven must receive until the times of restoration of all things, which God has spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began. 22 For Moses truly said to the fathers.




The New King James Version (Nashville: Thomas Nelson, 1982), Ac 3:17–22.

See, the restoration of all things.


God has spoken of the restoration of all things through His holy prophets since the world began and Christians think they're going to Heaven. Doesn't that speak to the rampant Biblical illiteracy that exists today? The theme of restoration is all through the Bible, from Genesis to Revelation. Yet it's not preached in churches. Instead, they preach the Greek philosophic hope of Plato, ascending into the heavens.

And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. 2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, gcoming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. 4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. 5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new.

The Holy Bible: King James Version, Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), Re 21:1–5.

Here we have a description of the new heavens and new earth from God Himself. He says the former things have passed away. Then He says, "Behold, I make all things new." Notice He didn't say He makes all new things. He said He makes all things new. That is restoration.

Gehenna is the second death. There are grave yards all over America full of people who died the first death and they weren't in Gehenna. There is no mention in Scripture anywhere of a Lake of Fire until we get to the book of Revelation, a book of symbolism. Jesus indicated that the wicked would be burned in Gehenna. Either John is describing Gehenna when he speaks of the Lake of Fire, or one of them is wrong.

So, your choices are, Gehenna and the Lake of fire are one and the same place, or Jesus is wrong, or John is wrong. Which option do you choose?

 

[Butch5]

Your inferences ignore plain scripture. In the New Heavens and New Earth, after New Jerusalem has descended and God's dwelling is with men, Gehenna/Lake of Fire still persists, "without"...."outside" the city:

21:1 Now I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away. Also there was no more sea.
2 Then I, John, saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3 And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, "Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God.
4 "And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away."
5 Then He who sat on the throne said, "Behold, I make all things new." And He said to me, "Write, for these words are true and faithful."
6 And He said to me, "It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. I will give of the fountain of the water of life freely to him who thirsts.
7 "He who overcomes shall inherit all things, and I will be his God and he shall be My son.
8 "But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death." (Rev. 21:1-8
NKJ)

14 Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city.
15 But outside are dogs and sorcerers and sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and whoever loves and practices a lie. (Rev. 22:14-15 NKJ)

While the city exists, "outside are" the wicked being punished.

That is also implied by Isaiah, the redeemed can look upon the carcasses of the wicked after the "new heavens and the new earth" are created:

22 "For as the new heavens and the new earth Which I will make shall remain before Me," says the LORD, "So shall your descendants and your name remain.
23 And it shall come to pass That from one New Moon to another, And from one Sabbath to another, All flesh shall come to worship before Me," says the LORD.
24 "And they shall go forth and look Upon the corpses of the men Who have transgressed against Me. For their worm does not die, And their fire is not quenched. They shall be an abhorrence to all flesh." (Isa. 66:22-24 NKJ)

Your inference these are dead bodies only (corpses) without the wicked soul being punished imprisoned within, is contradicted by Rev. 22:15, where they are referred to as still "living".

They're not inferences. The passage states plainly that they are carcasses. A carcass is dead. The inference is on your part. You've inferred from other passages that the soul is something apart from the body. You've then used that inference as the premise for your argument. However, you have not established from Scripture that the soul is something apart from the body. Rev 22:15 says nothing about the corpses, it's speaking of living people.

Moreover, if everyone in the lake of fire were annihilated, then its destruction should logically follow as its purpose for existence is no more. But nothing in Scripture suggests Gehenna aka "Lake of Fire" will cease to exist.

That's a good point. And, actually, Scripture does tell us that it will cease to exist.

Jeremiah also speaks of the restoration of Jerusalem, or the New Jerusalem.

Behold, the days come, saith the LORD,
That the city shall be built to the LORD
From the tower of Hananeel unto the gate of the corner.
39 And the measuring line shall yet go forth over against it
Upon the hill Gareb, and shall compass about to Goath.
40 And the whole valley of the dead bodies, and of the ashes,
And all the fields unto the brook of Kidron,
Unto the corner of the horse gate toward the east,
Shall be holy unto the LORD;
It shall not be plucked up, nor thrown down any more for ever.


The Holy Bible: King James Version, Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), Je 31:38–40.

The whole valley of dead bodies and ashes is Gehenna. Notice that Jeremiah states that it will be made holy to the Lord and that it will not be plucked up or thrown down any more. So, it appears that the city is expanded from its current size and will include Gehenna. It will be holy to the Lord.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

So, as you can see, they don't reign forever and ever.

And I gave you John's vision, where the saints most definitely reign forever. Scripture doesn't contradict itself, you're diminishing God's eternal reign to a "hyberbole" to suit your own doctrine.

And he showed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding from the throne of God and of the Lamb. In the middle of its street, and on either side of the river, was the tree of life, which bore twelve fruits, each tree yielding its fruit every month. The leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. And there shall be no more curse, but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it, and His servants shall serve Him. They shall see His face, and His name shall be on their foreheads. There shall be no night there: They need no lamp nor light of the sun, for the Lord God gives them light. And they shall reign forever and ever.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

A study of Scripture reveals that the creation will be restored. The New Jerusalem is the current one restored. Isaiah 40 on is about the restoration.

Yes, the New Jerusalem is the restored Garden of Eden, not a restored capital city of today's modern Israel state. So tell me, where was this valley of Hinnom in the original Garden of Eden? Where is it in Gen. 2? The Scripture is clear that there must be absolutely no abomination in New Jerusalem (21:27), there won't be such a place in the new heaven and new earth.

So, your choices are, Gehenna and the Lake of fire are one and the same place, or Jesus is wrong, or John is wrong. Which option do you choose?

Neither, you're wrong. First, fire in literal Gehenna is quenchable, that is contrary to Jesus's teaching of UNquenchable fire; second, literal Gehenna won't exist in New Jerusalem.

 

[Alfred Persson]

They're not inferences. The passage states plainly that they are carcasses. A carcass is dead. The inference is on your part. You've inferred from other passages that the soul is something apart from the body. You've then used that inference as the premise for your argument. However, you have not established from Scripture that the soul is something apart from the body. Rev 22:15 says nothing about the corpses, it's speaking of living people.

That's a good point. And, actually, Scripture does tell us that it will cease to exist.

Jeremiah also speaks of the restoration of Jerusalem, or the New Jerusalem.

Behold, the days come, saith the LORD,
That the city shall be built to the LORD
From the tower of Hananeel unto the gate of the corner.
39 And the measuring line shall yet go forth over against it
Upon the hill Gareb, and shall compass about to Goath.
40 And the whole valley of the dead bodies, and of the ashes,
And all the fields unto the brook of Kidron,
Unto the corner of the horse gate toward the east,
Shall be holy unto the LORD;
It shall not be plucked up, nor thrown down any more for ever.


The Holy Bible: King James Version, Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), Je 31:38–40.

The whole valley of dead bodies and ashes is Gehenna. Notice that Jeremiah states that it will be made holy to the Lord and that it will not be plucked up or thrown down any more. So, it appears that the city is expanded from its current size and will include Gehenna. It will be holy to the Lord.

Again, your inference "dead bodies" = "annhilated people" is wrong. The bodies exist to imprison the souls of the wicked. Without bodies, souls (which are not immortal) become "shades" and eventually fade into nonexistence.

That is the puprose of ressurrecting both the righteous and unrighteous, so each can receive in their resurrected body what they have chosen, life in Christ by God's grace (unmerited favor via the Sacrifice of Christ), or punishment according to their works.

 

[Butch5]

And I gave you John's vision, where the saints most definitely reign forever. Scripture doesn't contradict itself, you're diminishing God's eternal reign to a "hyberbole" to suit your own doctrine.

And he showed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding from the throne of God and of the Lamb. In the middle of its street, and on either side of the river, was the tree of life, which bore twelve fruits, each tree yielding its fruit every month. The leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. And there shall be no more curse, but the throne of God and of the Lamb shall be in it, and His servants shall serve Him. They shall see His face, and His name shall be on their foreheads. There shall be no night there: They need no lamp nor light of the sun, for the Lord God gives them light. And they shall reign forever and ever.

And I've shown you repeatedly that aion doesn't mean forever. A fact you've simply avoided. Paul states plainly that Jesus will reign until all things are put under His feet. This shows us beyond doubt that the translators have wrongly translated aion. It doesn't mean eternal.

 

[Butch5]

Yes, the New Jerusalem is the restored Garden of Eden, not a restored capital city of today's modern Israel state. So tell me, where was this valley of Hinnom in the original Garden of Eden? Where is it in Gen. 2? The Scripture is clear that there must be absolutely no abomination in New Jerusalem (21:27), there won't be such a place in the new heaven and new earth.

Where does Scripture say New Jerusalem is the garden of Eden? The Valley of Hinnom, Gehenna is outside of Jerusalem. As per the description in Jeremiah's prophecy it appears that the restored city will include Gehenna. Thus it is no more a valley of burning bodies , aka a lake of fire. Thus the bodies in it don't burn for eternity.

Neither, you're wrong. First, fire in literal Gehenna is quenchable, that is contrary to Jesus's teaching of UNquenchable fire; second, literal Gehenna won't exist in New Jerusalem.

Sorry, that's not an option. Jesus indicated that the wicked would be cast into the fire of Gehenna. John indicates that the wicked would be cast into the Lake of Fire. Either Gehenna and the Lake of Fire are the same place or Jesus or John was wrong. Once again, you have three options, which do you choose?

 

[Butch5]

Again, your inference "dead bodies" = "annhilated people" is wrong. The bodies exist to imprison the souls of the wicked. Without bodies, souls (which are not immortal) become "shades" and eventually fade into nonexistence.

You've yet to prove that the soul is something apart from the body. I've already shown from Scripture that it was the body that "Became" a soul. Thus, there is no soul if there is no body.

That is the puprose of ressurrecting both the righteous and unrighteous, so each can receive in their resurrected body what they have chosen, life in Christ by God's grace (unmerited favor via the Sacrifice of Christ), or punishment according to their works.

That's correct. If the soul was something other than the body, there would be no need to resurrect the body to punish it.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

And I've shown you repeatedly that aion doesn't mean forever. A fact you've simply avoided. Paul states plainly that Jesus will reign until all things are put under His feet. This shows us beyond doubt that the translators have wrongly translated aion. It doesn't mean eternal.

You're in denial, and you're blaming the translators. I asked you which verse states or implies that NEW JERUSALEM will come to an end, you come up with none. 1 Cor. 15:25 is referring to the millennial kingdom, NOT New Jerusalem which appears AFTER the millennial kingdom.