Annihilationism, do the Wicked Perish?

[Butch5]

11 `For the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it to you upon the altar to make atonement for your souls; for it is the blood that makes atonement for the soul.' (Lev. 17:11 NKJ)

The word life in this passage is the word soul. For the soul of the flesh is in the blood. The translators understand the word nepehsh, soul, to be life.

19 And in a window sat a certain young man named Eutychus, who was sinking into a deep sleep. He was overcome by sleep; and as Paul continued speaking, he fell down from the third story and was taken up dead.
10 But Paul went down, fell on him, and embracing him said, "Do not trouble yourselves, for his life is in him."
(Acts 20:9-10 NKJ)

Again, soul is life.

9 And the LORD said to Moses in Midian, "Go, return to Egypt; for all the men who sought your life are dead." (Exod. 4:19 NKJ)

Were the men seeking Moses' ghost or his life?

23 "Only be sure that you do not eat the blood, for the blood is the life; you may not eat the life with the meat. (Deut. 12:23 NKJ)

Is the blood the life of the meat or is it the ghost of the meat?

11 And David said to Abishai and all his servants, "See how my son who came from my own body seeks my life. How much more now may this Benjamite? Let him alone, and let him curse; for so the LORD has ordered him. (2 Sam. 16:11 NKJ)

Is he seeking to end David's life or his ghost?

24 So they went in to offer sacrifices and burnt offerings. Now Jehu had appointed for himself eighty men on the outside, and had said, "If any of the men whom I have brought into your hands escapes, whoever lets him escape, it shall be his life for the life of the other." (2 Ki. 10:24 NKJ)

Is Jehu requiring life (soul) for life (soul) or is he requiring ghost for ghost. How does one kill a ghost?

20 But the eyes of the wicked will fail, And they shall not escape, And their hope-- loss of life!" (Job 11:20 NKJ)

Do the wicked lose their life (soul) or their ghost?

2 Let them be ashamed and confounded Who seek my life; Let them be turned back and confused Who desire my hurt. (Ps. 70:2 NKJ)

Are they seeking to end his life (soul) or his ghost?

7 Peter said to Him, "Lord, why can I not follow You now? I will lay down my life for Your sake."
38 Jesus answered him, "Will you lay down your life for My sake? Most assuredly, I say to you, the rooster shall not crow till you have denied Me three times. (Jn. 13:37-38 NKJ)

Was Peter offering to lay down his life (soul) for Jesus or was he going to lay down his ghost for Jesus?


26 "If anyone comes to Me and does not hate his father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters, yes, and his own life also, he cannot be My disciple. (Lk. 14:26 NKJ)

Does one have to hate his own life for Jesus or his own ghost?

There are literally dozens of passages like this.

 

[Butch5]

You're in denial, and you're blaming the translators. I asked you which verse states or implies that NEW JERUSALEM will come to an end, you come up with none. 1 Cor. 15:25 is referring to the millennial kingdom, NOT New Jerusalem which appears AFTER the millennial kingdom.

You've got to follow along. I didn't say anything about New Jerusalem ending.

Where exactly do you think Christ is going to reign if not in New Jerusalem?

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Where does Scripture say New Jerusalem is the garden of Eden?

Is the tree of life not in Eden? The same one will be in New Jerusalem.

The Valley of Hinnom, Gehenna is outside of Jerusalem. As per the description in Jeremiah's prophecy it appears that the restored city will include Gehenna. Thus it is no more a valley of burning bodies , aka a lake of fire. Thus the bodies in it don't burn for eternity.

Jeremiah's prophecy is about the resurrection, dead bones coming alive, it's the same one in Ez. 37:5-6. That's not about New Jerusalem.

Prophesy to these bones, and say to them, ‘O dry bones, hear the word of the Lord! 5 Thus says the Lord God to these bones: “Surely I will cause breath to enter into you, and you shall live. I will put sinews on you and bring flesh upon you, cover you with skin and put breath in you; and you shall live. Then you shall know that I am the Lord.

Sorry, that's not an option. Jesus indicated that the wicked would be cast into the fire of Gehenna. John indicates that the wicked would be cast into the Lake of Fire. Either Gehenna and the Lake of Fire are the same place or Jesus or John was wrong. Once again, you have three options, which do you choose?

Once again, neither. Scripture is right, you're wrong.

Edited by moderator .

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

You've got to follow along. I didn't say anything about New Jerusalem ending.

Where exactly do you think Christ is going to reign if not in New Jerusalem?

In his millennial kingdom:

Over such the second death has no power, but they (the saints) shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years. (Rev. 20:6)
She bore a male Child who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron. And her Child was caught up to God and His throne. (Rev. 12:5)

 

[hawkman]

Please treat each other with respect .
TOS 1.3: Use self control and focus on reconcilliation when discussing differences. Address the issue, not the person. Do not make derogatory personal remarks or you will be removed from the thread.

 

[Butch5]

Is the tree of life not in Eden? The same one will be in New Jerusalem.

Yes, the Tree of life is "in" Jerusalem. If it's "in" Jerusalem it can't be Jerusalem.

Jeremiah's prophecy is about the resurrection, dead bones coming alive, it's the same one in Ez. 37:5-6. That's not about New Jerusalem.

Prophesy to these bones, and say to them, ‘O dry bones, hear the word of the Lord! 5 Thus says the Lord God to these bones: “Surely I will cause breath to enter into you, and you shall live. I will put sinews on you and bring flesh upon you, cover you with skin and put breath in you; and you shall live. Then you shall know that I am the Lord.

Jeremiahs prophecy is about Jerusalem.

Behold, the days come, saith the LORD,
That the city shall be built to the LORD
From the tower of Hananeel unto the gate of the corner.
39 And the measuring line shall yet go forth over against it
Upon the hill Gareb, and shall compass about to Goath.
40 And the whole valley of the dead bodies, and of the ashes,
And all the fields unto the brook of Kidron,
Unto the corner of the horse gate toward the east,
Shall be holy unto the LORD;
It shall not be plucked up, nor thrown down any more for ever.


The Holy Bible: King James Version, Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), Je 31:38–40.

Once again, neither. Scripture is right, you're wrong.

Again, that wasn't an option. There are only three options.

 

[Butch5]

In his millennial kingdom:

Over such the second death has no power, but they (the saints) shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years. (Rev. 20:6)
She bore a male Child who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron. And her Child was caught up to God and His throne. (Rev. 12:5)

Where is the millennial kingdom?

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Yes, the Tree of life is "in" Jerusalem. If it's "in" Jerusalem it can't be Jerusalem.

What kind of twisted logic is this? The Tree of Life is there in New Jerusalem, 22:2.

Jeremiahs prophecy is about Jerusalem.

There is no dead bodies or ashes in the New Jerusalem period, because death and Hades have been defeated and thrown into the Lake of Fire. Since they're still mentioned here, this is not about New Jerusalem.

Again, that wasn't an option. There are only three options.

No there are not. UNquenchable fire in literal valley of Hinnom is not an option, that fire can be quenched. Jesus was using that imagery to teach the Lake of Fire where the fire is truly UNquenchable.

Where is the millennial kingdom?

Then the iron, the clay, the bronze, the silver, and the gold were crushed together, and became like chaff from the summer threshing floors; the wind carried them away so that no trace of them was found. And the stone that struck the image became a great mountain and filled the whole earth. (Dan. 2:35)

And in the days of these kings the God of heaven will set up a kingdom which shall never be destroyed; and the kingdom shall not be left to other people; it shall [n]break in pieces and [o]consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand forever. (Dan. 2:44)

 

[Alfred Persson]

You've yet to prove that the soul is something apart from the body. I've already shown from Scripture that it was the body that "Became" a soul. Thus, there is no soul if there is no body.

That's correct. If the soul was something other than the body, there would be no need to resurrect the body to punish it.

On the contrary, souls apart from their bodies can be a noisy, lively bunch:

9 When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held.
10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, "How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?"
11 Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed.
(Rev. 6:9-11 NKJ)

Because Jesus Christ is My Teacher (Mt. 23:8) as well as my LORD and Saviour, I know the soul is distinct from the body:

"And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. (Matt. 10:28 NKJ)

If your inferences were correct, we could substitute "body" for "soul" or vice versa, and contradiction wouldn't appear:

When we substitute "Body" for "Soul" Jesus' statement is self-contradictory and tautological:
"And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the body. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both body and body in hell.

When we substitue "Soul" for "Body" Jesus' statement is self-contradictory and tautological:
"And do not fear those who kill the soul but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and soul in hell. (Matt. 10:28 NKJ)

 

[Butch5]

Well, this is getting a bit out there. As has been pointed out many times, God said, 'the soul that sins shall die.' Paul said, "the wages of sin is death." The Eternal Torment doctrine says no they're wrong. It's not death, it's life. It's eternal life. It's eternal life so that the person can be tortured forever. The doctrine not only impugns God's character, it, at best says He's wrong, and at worst calls Him a liar. How the Church ever accepted such a ludicrous idea is bewildering.

The idea is premised on another false doctrine, that being the "Immortal Soul" doctrine. This is a doctrine that entered the faith from Greek Philosophy. In Jesus' day one of, if not the primary, beliefs among the Greeks was that of Plato who posited that souls were immortal and the goal of the soul was to escape the prison of the body and ascend into the heavens. As we see, this concept is still alive and well. The question then becomes, is man immortal? Well, that's an easy question to answer. The answer is no! The apostle Paul makes that abundantly clear.

13 I give thee charge in the sight of God, who quickeneth all things, and before Christ Jesus, who before Pontius Pilate witnessed a good confession; 14 That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ: 15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords; 16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.

The Holy Bible: King James Version, Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), 1 Ti 6:12–16.

Here Paul tells us that the only one who has immortality is the Father, the one no man has seen, nor can see. No other being has immortality. That includes man.

5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; 6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds: 7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: 8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, 9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the uGentile

The Holy Bible: King James Version, Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), Ro 2:5–9.

Here Paul states that those who continue to do well are seeking immortality or eternal life. Obviously if they are seeking immortality they don't already possess it.

For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. 2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven: 3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked. 4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.

The Holy Bible: King James Version, Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), 2 Co 5:1–4.

Current state, mortal, not immortal.

53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.

The Holy Bible: King James Version, Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), 1 Co 15:53–54.

"This mortal" is a state of being. Man is mortal, not immortal. He "is" flesh, mortal.

3 And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.

The Holy Bible: King James Version, Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), Ge 6:3.

19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

The Holy Bible: King James Version, Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), Ge 3:19.

"For thou art dust" Again, a state of being. This alludes back to Genesis 2:7.

7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

The Holy Bible: King James Version, Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), Ge 2:7.

In this passage we have explained the creation of man. God created the man from the dust of the earth. we see that the man was not alive, but just a body. Then God breathed something out of Himself and into the man. That was the breath or spirit of life. It was the Neshemah of life. It is something of God, not man. When God did this, infused the man with the breath of life, a transformation took place and the man became a living soul. From this we see that a soul consists of a body and the breath/spirit of God. Two things came together to form a third. So, it follows that if one of these two things departs, the soul no longer exists. We are told that God's breath/ spirit returns to Him when man dies.

because man goeth to his long home, and the mourners go about the streets: 6 Or ever the silver cord be loosed, or the golden bowl be broken, or the pitcher be broken at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern. 7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

The Holy Bible: King James Version, Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), Ec 12:5–7.

The spirit or breath returns to God who gave it. We see that God gave it to Adam and Adam became a living soul. This breath or spirit is what animates or gives life to man. In this we see that there are only two components of a living soul. The man, or body, and the breath/spirit of God. There is nothing else. There is no mention of a "human spirit." Many try to argue that man consists of three parts, body, soul, and spirit. However, as we've established from Scripture these are not three components, but rather two components that form a third. The only mention of a breath/spirit in man is that of God Himself.

Some argue that God's giving breath/spirit was one times event with Adam and that now life is produced through procreation. However, that's not the case. God is currently giving life to all things.


13 I urge you in the sight of God who gives life to all things, and before Christ Jesus who witnessed the good confession before Pontius Pilate, 14 that you keep this commandment without spot, blameless until our Lord Jesus Christ’s appearing, 15 which He will manifest in His own time, He who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings and Lord of lords, 16 who alone has immortality, dwelling in unapproachable light, whom no man has seen or can see, to whom be honor and everlasting power. Amen.


The New King James Version (Nashville: Thomas Nelson, 1982), 1 Ti 6:13–16.

Here Paul uses the present tense, God gives. Thus showing that it is an ongoing process in which God is giving life to all things. This shows beyond doubt that man is not immortal. He is kept alive, every minute, by God giving him life.

If he set his heart upon man,
If he gather unto himself his spirit and his breath;
15 All flesh shall perish together,
And man shall turn again unto dust.


The Holy Bible: King James Version, Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), Job 34:14–15.

As we see here, too, if God retrieves His spirit/breath all flesh would die and man would return to the dust. Thus man is not immortal.

Given that man is not immortal, but rather flesh, and will die and return to the dust, it is not possible that he could suffer eternally. The only way that man could suffer enterally is if he was immortal. Since all life is given and supported by God, the only way a man can be immortal is if God makes him immortal, ie. gives him eternal life. However, as we see in Scripture eternal life is a gift of God to the believer. Nowhere in Scripture are the wicked ever promised eternal life, nowhere. Since the wicked are not promised eternal life from God, and God is the only source of it. we can logically conclude that the wicked cannot possibly suffer eternal conscious torment.

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

The Holy Bible: King James Version, Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), Jn 3:16.

23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

The Holy Bible: King James Version, Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), Ro 6:23.

 

[Alfred Persson]

Well, this is getting a bit out there. As has been pointed out many times, God said, 'the soul that sins shall die.' Paul said, "the wages of sin is death." The Eternal Torment doctrine says no they're wrong. It's not death, it's life. It's eternal life. It's eternal life so that the person can be tortured forever. The doctrine not only impugns God's character, it, at best says He's wrong, and at worst calls Him a liar. How the Church ever accepted such a ludicrous idea is bewildering

A massive inferential miss.

You infer from "the soul that sins shall die" that souls die, but Ezekiel also said the repentant souls shall live, contradicting your inference.

After physical death, the repentant soul lives and does not die as your inference insists:


27 Again, when the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive.
28 Because he considereth, and turneth away from all his transgressions that he hath committed, he shall surely live, he shall not die. (Ezek. 18:27-28 KJV)

Oops. The bottom card in a house of cards was just yanked! When the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, they beat upon an already fallen house.

 

[Butch5]

A massive inferential miss.

You infer from "the soul that sins shall die" that souls die, but Ezekiel also said the repentant souls shall live, contradicting your inference.

After physical death, the repentant soul lives and does not die as your inference insists:


27 Again, when the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive.
28 Because he considereth, and turneth away from all his transgressions that he hath committed, he shall surely live, he shall not die. (Ezek. 18:27-28 KJV)

Oops. The bottom card in a house of cards was just yanked! When the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, they beat upon an already fallen house.

Not at all. As I've pointed out, a soul is a being. The one who does what is righteous will live. At the resurrection.

Genesis 2:7 (NKJV): 7 And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.


Please establish that a soul can live apart from the body. I've established that it can't.

 

[Alfred Persson]

Not at all. As I've pointed out, a soul is a being. The one who does what is righteous will live. At the resurrection.

Genesis 2:7 (NKJV): 7 And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.


Please establish that a soul can live apart from the body. I've established that it can't.

Incorrect, it says "he shall NOT die", NOT "he will die until the resurrection, then live".

Your inference there are thousands of years of death, until the resurrection, is a massive violation of Occam's razor.

God established repentant souls live after death of the body in Ezekiel 18:27-28

27 Again, when the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive.
28 Because he considereth, and turneth away from all his transgressions that he hath committed, he shall surely live, he shall not die. (Ezek. 18:27-28 KJV)

Your inference souls can't live without a body is clearly contradicted by God Himself.

"But he who heard and did nothing is like a man who built a house on the earth without a foundation, against which the stream beat vehemently; and immediately it fell. And the ruin of that house was great." (Lk. 6:49 NKJ)

 

[Butch5]

Incorrect, it says "he shall NOT die", NOT "he will die until the resurrection, then live".

Your inference there are thousands of years of death, until the resurrection, is a massive violation of Occam's razor.

God established repentant souls live after death of the body in Ezekiel 18:27-28

27 Again, when the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive.
28 Because he considereth, and turneth away from all his transgressions that he hath committed, he shall surely live, he shall not die. (Ezek. 18:27-28 KJV)

Your inference souls can't live without a body is clearly contradicted by God Himself.

"But he who heard and did nothing is like a man who built a house on the earth without a foundation, against which the stream beat vehemently; and immediately it fell. And the ruin of that house was great." (Lk. 6:49 NKJ)

Context!

 

[Butch5]

Incorrect, it says "he shall NOT die", NOT "he will die until the resurrection, then live".

Your inference there are thousands of years of death, until the resurrection, is a massive violation of Occam's razor.

God established repentant souls live after death of the body in Ezekiel 18:27-28

27 Again, when the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive.
28 Because he considereth, and turneth away from all his transgressions that he hath committed, he shall surely live, he shall not die. (Ezek. 18:27-28 KJV)

Your inference souls can't live without a body is clearly contradicted by God Himself.

"But he who heard and did nothing is like a man who built a house on the earth without a foundation, against which the stream beat vehemently; and immediately it fell. And the ruin of that house was great." (Lk. 6:49 NKJ)

When you establish your premise please let me know. Until them this is just opinion

 

[Alfred Persson]

Context!

More than enough context to conclude inferential logic is not your forte.

You claimed "soul that is sinning shall die" = death of soul when body dies.

God says repentant souls shall NOT die = you are wrong.

 

[Butch5]

More than enough context to conclude inferential logic is not your forte.

You claimed "soul that is sinning shall die" = death of soul when body dies.

God says repentant souls shall NOT die = you are wrong.

The soul is the person. If he sinned God was going to kill him. If he turned from his sin God would spear his life. He shall not die.

The problem is that your imposing a Greek Philosphical definition on the soul rather than a Biblical definition. That's the reason I've repeatedly asked you to establish, from Scripture, that a soul can live apart from the body. You've refused to do that. Instead you continue to argue using this Greek Philososphic definition of soul.

If you feel you can establish, from Scripture, that a soul can live apart from the body, please do so. Arguing from a Greek Philosophical position proves nothing when we're discussing Scripture

 

[Alfred Persson]

The soul is the person. If he sinned God was going to kill him. If he turned from his sin God would spear his life. He shall not die.

The problem is that your imposing a Greek Philosphical definition on the soul rather than a Biblical definition. That's the reason I've repeatedly asked you to establish, from Scripture, that a soul can live apart from the body. You've refused to do that. Instead you continue to argue using this Greek Philososphic definition of soul.

If you feel you can establish, from Scripture, that a soul can live apart from the body, please do so. Arguing from a Greek Philosophical position proves nothing when we're discussing Scripture

While I agree Catholicism did mix in pagan elements in its concept of hades, which Protestants inherited and faithfully defend to this day....you are guilty of the same. Stoicism is what you believe.

You have overlaid their belief the "animating principle" is reabsorbed into the cosmic "pneuma", and individuals ceased to exist upon death. The Sadducees also denied souls exist apart from the body. Which is why Christ first proved them wrong about people surviving death, and that by implication requires the resurrection of the physical body:

26 And as touching the dead, that they rise: have ye not read in the book of Moses, how in the bush God spake unto him, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob?
27 He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err.
28 And one of the scribes came, and having heard them reasoning together, and perceiving that <strong>he had answered them well</strong>… (Mk. 12:26-28 KJV)</blockquote>

Jesus cites ‘I am the God of Abraham and the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob’ to prove the souls of these men were in God's presence as God spoke.

Not only were the Patriarchs alive and not dead as the Sadducees believed, but this proves the resurrection of the Body also as God promised THEM and their seed would live physically in the land forever (Gen. 17:7-8; 26:3; 28:13) and they stood in His presence daily reminding Him of His unfulfilled promise.

So you, the Stoics, and the Sadducees are wrong, souls survive physical death, repentant souls never die the death.

That's why Christ is preached to the dead, so all who would repent, can and live:

For this reason the gospel was preached also to those who are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit. (1 Pet. 4:5-6 NKJ)

The dead in Christ live according to God in the Holy Spirit, they never die. You are wrong:

24 "Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.
25 "Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live.
26 "For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself,
27 "and has given Him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of Man.
28 "Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice
29 "and come forth-- those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. (Jn. 5:24-29 NKJ)

 

[Butch5]

While I agree Catholicism did mix in pagan elements in its concept of hades, which Protestants inherited and faithfully defend to this day....you are guilty of the same. Stoicism is what you believe.

You have overlaid their belief the "animating principle" is reabsorbed into the cosmic "pneuma", and individuals ceased to exist upon death. The Sadducees also denied souls exist apart from the body. Which is why Christ first proved them wrong about people surviving death, and that by implication requires the resurrection of the physical body:

26 And as touching the dead, that they rise: have ye not read in the book of Moses, how in the bush God spake unto him, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob?
27 He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err.
28 And one of the scribes came, and having heard them reasoning together, and perceiving that <strong>he had answered them well</strong>… (Mk. 12:26-28 KJV)</blockquote>

Jesus cites ‘I am the God of Abraham and the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob’ to prove the souls of these men were in God's presence as God spoke.

Not only were the Patriarchs alive and not dead as the Sadducees believed, but this proves the resurrection of the Body also as God promised THEM and their seed would live physically in the land forever (Gen. 17:7-8; 26:3; 28:13) and they stood in His presence daily reminding Him of His unfulfilled promise.

So you, the Stoics, and the Sadducees are wrong, souls survive physical death, repentant souls never die the death.

That's why Christ is preached to the dead, so all who would repent, can and live:

For this reason the gospel was preached also to those who are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit. (1 Pet. 4:5-6 NKJ)

The dead in Christ live according to God in the Holy Spirit, they never die. You are wrong:

24 "Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.
25 "Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live.
26 "For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself,
27 "and has given Him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of Man.
28 "Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice
29 "and come forth-- those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. (Jn. 5:24-29 NKJ)

When you establish your premise from Scripure please let me know.

 

[Alfred Persson]

When you establish your premise from Scripure please let me know.

Premises established, just letting you know. You should credit pagan Greek Stoicism for your beliefs about the afterlife, they certainly are not what Scripture teaches:

"So, it follows that if one of these two things departs, the soul no longer exists. We are told that God's breath/ spirit returns to Him when man dies." #250 Butch5

The Greek Stoics believed in a concept called pneuma, which can be translated as "breath" or "spirit." This pneuma was understood as a vital force...the Stoics believed that the soul, or more accurately the pneuma, would be reabsorbed into the cosmic pneuma upon physical death. They did not believe in an afterlife in the traditional sense; instead, they thought that individual consciousness would cease to exist after death.

Scripture teaches individual consciousness survives physical death, angels carry the redeemed soul to paradise in third heaven, they are "gathered to" the people of God, and its likely gravity pulls the wicked soul down into the tormenting region of hades because the body's electromagnetism no longer prevents them sinking down through the crust of the earth:

Then Abraham breathed his last and died in a good old age, an old man and full of years, and was gathered to his people. (Gen. 25:8 NKJ)

22 "So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham's bosom. The rich man also died and was buried.
23 "And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 "Then he cried and said,`Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.' (Lk. 16:22-24 NKJ)

And Jesus said to him, "Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise." (Lk. 23:43 NKJ)

2 I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago-- whether in the body I do not know, or whether out of the body I do not know, God knows-- such a one was caught up to the third heaven.
3 And I know such a man-- whether in the body or out of the body I do not know, God knows--
4 how he was caught up into Paradise and heard inexpressible words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter. (2 Cor. 12:2-4 NKJ)

4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. (Rev. 20:4-5 NKJ)