Annihilationism, do the Wicked Perish?

[Carry_Your_Name]

What does that have to do with hidden mysteries?

So there's no mysteries in the NT? Knowing Greek definitely helps, but if there's a mystery or a reference, literal meaning doesn't necessarily reveal it.

 

[Butch5]

So there's no mysteries in the NT? Knowing Greek definitely helps, but if there's a mystery or a reference, literal meaning doesn't necessarily reveal it.

Are you conflating mysteries with things unknown? What mysteries are in the NT?

But, I still don't see what that has to do with the meaning of a word. The word is used all through the Old and New Testaments. We can clearly see how it's used

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Are you conflating mysteries with things unknown? What mysteries are in the NT?

But, I still don't see what that has to do with the meaning of a word. The word is used all through the Old and New Testaments. We can clearly see how it's used

What's conflating about that? How could a mystery be called mystery if it's not unknown? What word game are you playing? And what mysteries are in the NT? Um, how many times did Paul write, "behold, I tell you a mystery?" Meaning of a word is one thing, what that word is really referring to is another, I think it's you who're conflating these two.

 

[Butch5]

What's conflating about that? How could a mystery be called mystery if it's not unknown? What word game are you playing? And what mysteries are in the NT? Um, how many times did Paul write, "behold, I tell you a mystery?" Meaning of a word is one thing, what that word is really referring to is another, I think it's you who're conflating these two.

Look at what you wrote.
""behold, I tell you a mystery?""

Paul is explaining the mystery. That mystery is from the OT. He's not telling them new mysteries.

But, again, what does this have to do with the definition of aion. As I said, the word is used all through both Testaments. We can easily determine what it means. Tell me, how is something that ends, eternal?

 

[Hopeful 2]

No, the word that they translated "world" is the Greek word "aion." It's the same word they translate forever in other passages. If Jesus spoke of the end of the aion, then the aion ends. If we can't believe that Jesus knew the language he spoke there's really no point being here. So, Jesus said it ends. Now the English words forever and eternity are by definition unending. Thus, aion cannot mean eternity or forever.

Yet, in spite of this fact, translators translate the word as eternal or forever. That leaves us with a decision. Who are we going to believe? Who knew Koine Greek better, Jesus or today's modern translators?

For me that's an easy question to answer. However, from what I've seen, it seems to be an incredibly difficult one for most Christians to answer. I wonder why that is.

Why would anyone confuse "world" with "ever" ?
It makes no sense.
"End of the world" though, is another matter.

Do you have access to a Strong's Concordance ?
"World" is translated in #165 in the Greek, as..."an age"; by extension. perpetuity (also past); by impl. spec. (Jewish) a Messianic period (present or future).
So, the end of the world means the end of an age.

 

[Hopeful 2]

No, the word that they translated "world" is the Greek word "aion." It's the same word they translate forever in other passages. If Jesus spoke of the end of the aion, then the aion ends. If we can't believe that Jesus knew the language he spoke there's really no point being here. So, Jesus said it ends. Now the English words forever and eternity are by definition unending. Thus, aion cannot mean eternity or forever.

Yet, in spite of this fact, translators translate the word as eternal or forever. That leaves us with a decision. Who are we going to believe? Who knew Koine Greek better, Jesus or today's modern translators?

For me that's an easy question to answer. However, from what I've seen, it seems to be an incredibly difficult one for most Christians to answer. I wonder why that is.

I am glad the context of your word "world" was "...the end of the _____".

 

[Butch5]

Why would anyone confuse "world" with "ever" ?
It makes no sense.
"End of the world" though, is another matter.

Do you have access to a Strong's Concordance ?
"World" is translated in #165 in the Greek, as..."an age"; by extension. perpetuity (also past); by impl. spec. (Jewish) a Messianic period (present or future).
So, the end of the world means the end of an age.

Exactly! Which means aion doesn't mean forever or eternity.

So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just, And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. (Mat 13:49-50 KJV)

Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: (Mat 25:41 KJV)

In these two passages the words "world" and "everlasting" are the same Greek word. Why do you suppose they didn't translate it everlasting in both places?

 

[Free]

Exactly! Which means aion doesn't mean forever or eternity.

So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just, And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. (Mat 13:49-50 KJV)

Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: (Mat 25:41 KJV)

In these two passages the words "world" and "everlasting" are the same Greek word. Why do you suppose they didn't translate it everlasting in both places?

Context determines meaning.

Mat 13:49 So it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come out and separate the evil from the righteous
Mat 13:50 and throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

In Matt 13:49, the context clearly indicates an end of a period of time and therefore cannot mean "eternal" or "everlasting."


Mat 25:41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
...
Mat 25:46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

It stands to reason from verse 46, that if the punishment of the wicked is temporary, then so is life for the righteous. The context is speaking of final things, an indefinite period of time. That is, unlike Matt 13:49, there is nothing that happens afterwards; it just is.

We must also take into account what is said elsewhere:

Rev 14:9 And another angel, a third, followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand,
Rev 14:10 he also will drink the wine of God's wrath, poured full strength into the cup of his anger, and he will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.
Rev 14:11 And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name.”

Rev 20:10 and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

The language is the same of those who worship "the beast and its image" and receive "a mark," and of the devil, the beast, and the false prophet--"day and (or) night;" "forever and ever;" "torment(ed)." The repetition, particularly of aion, is used for emphasis and strongly suggests eternality.

It is the exact same phrase as here:

Rev 1:6 and made us a kingdom, priests to his God and Father, to him be glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen.

Rev 4:9 And whenever the living creatures give glory and honor and thanks to him who is seated on the throne, who lives forever and ever,
Rev 4:10 the twenty-four elders fall down before him who is seated on the throne and worship him who lives forever and ever. They cast their crowns before the throne, saying,

Rev 5:13 And I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and in the sea, and all that is in them, saying, “To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be blessing and honor and glory and might forever and ever!”

Rev 7:12 saying, “Amen! Blessing and glory and wisdom and thanksgiving and honor and power and might be to our God forever and ever! Amen.”

Rev 10:6 and swore by him who lives forever and ever, who created heaven and what is in it, the earth and what is in it, and the sea and what is in it, that there would be no more delay,

Rev 11:15 Then the seventh angel blew his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, saying, “The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he shall reign forever and ever.”

Rev 15:7 And one of the four living creatures gave to the seven angels seven golden bowls full of the wrath of God who lives forever and ever,

Those are all in reference to God and to Christ, and I don't think anyone would argue that it doesn't mean eternal in these instances. And also of this one, speaking of believers:

Rev 22:5 And night will be no more. They will need no light of lamp or sun, for the Lord God will be their light, and they will reign forever and ever.

(All ESV.)

All of that supports the translation of aion in Matt 25:41, 46 as eternal or everlasting.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Look at what you wrote.
""behold, I tell you a mystery?""

Paul is explaining the mystery. That mystery is from the OT. He's not telling them new mysteries.

And yet they remain mysteries, there's no consensus on them. The mystery Paul told regards rapture, which is still a hotly debated issue. And what do you think is Mystery Babylon? Did Paul answer that? Most agree that it's a global religous system, but that's too vague for an answer, it's not explained.

But, again, what does this have to do with the definition of aion. As I said, the word is used all through both Testaments. We can easily determine what it means. Tell me, how is something that ends, eternal?

"Aion" is the Greek word from which we get the English word "eon", which means "an immeasuable, indefinite period of time", and the Scripture attests to this definition:

The city had no need of the sun or of the moon to shine in it, for the glory of God illuminated it. The Lamb is its light. (Rev. 21:23)
"Let there be lights in the firmament of the heavens to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs and seasons, and for days and years." (Gen. 1:14)

You claims that there's an end, but time is measured by solar and lunar cycles, so tell me, without sun and moon, how is "aion" supposed to end without a definitive measure?

 

[Butch5]

And yet they remain mysteries, there's no consensus on them. The mystery Paul told regards rapture, which is still a hotly debated issue. And what do you think is Mystery Babylon? Did Paul answer that? Most agree that it's a global religous system, but that's too vague for an answer, it's not explained.

Just because modern readers don't understand them doesn't mean they are still mysteries. Paul explained the mystery. The reason people today don't understand a lot of what's in the Bible is because they try to understand it through their 21st century world view instead of a 1st century Jewish world view.

What are the mysteries in the NT?

"Aion" is the Greek word from which we get the English word "eon", which means "an immeasuable, indefinite period of time", and the Scripture attests to this definition:

The city had no need of the sun or of the moon to shine in it, for the glory of God illuminated it. The Lamb is its light. (Rev. 21:23)
"Let there be lights in the firmament of the heavens to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs and seasons, and for days and years." (Gen. 1:14)

You claims that there's an end, but time is measured by solar and lunar cycles, so tell me, without sun and moon, how is "aion" supposed to end without a definitive measure?

You ignored what i said. Jesus said it ends. Is He right or wrong? How you understand or misunderstand a passage of Scripture doesn't change what Jesus said. Was He right or wrong?

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

What are the mysteries in the NT?

I've given you examples of rapture and Babylon the Great, you ignored what I said, I won't repeat myself.

Was He right or wrong?

"Ends" by what measure? Is Jesus right or wrong by acting in capacity of the sun and the moon?

 

[Butch5]

Context determines meaning.

Mat 13:49 So it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come out and separate the evil from the righteous
Mat 13:50 and throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

In Matt 13:49, the context clearly indicates an end of a period of time and therefore cannot mean "eternal" or "everlasting."


Mat 25:41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
...
Mat 25:46 And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

It stands to reason from verse 46, that if the punishment of the wicked is temporary, then so is life for the righteous. The context is speaking of final things, an indefinite period of time. That is, unlike Matt 13:49, there is nothing that happens afterwards; it just is.

That's an assumption. It's also circular. You're using the word in question to define the word in question.

We must also take into account what is said elsewhere:

Rev 14:9 And another angel, a third, followed them, saying with a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand,
Rev 14:10 he also will drink the wine of God's wrath, poured full strength into the cup of his anger, and he will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.
Rev 14:11 And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name.

Again, you're making an assumption. You stopped too soon. You should have included verse 12.

And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name. Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
The word translated here means, at that location. So, if this speaking of eternal torment then you'll need to explain why the saints are there. Do the saints also suffer eternal torment?

Rev 20:10 and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

The language is the same of those who worship "the beast and its image" and receive "a mark," and of the devil, the beast, and the false prophet--"day and (or) night;" "forever and ever;" "torment(ed)." The repetition, particularly of aion, is used for emphasis and strongly suggests eternality.

Again, this is assumption. It's being assumed that aion means eternal and that's being read back into the text.

It is the exact same phrase as here:

Rev 1:6 and made us a kingdom, priests to his God and Father, to him be glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen.

Who made them a kingdom of priests? It was Christ, correct? Christ's dominion doesn't last forever.

Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all. (1 Cor 15:24-28 KJV)

Christ reigns until all things are put under Him. Then He turns the Kingdom over to the Father. If He turns the Kingdom over, then His dominion ends, thus aion doesn't mean forever.

Rev 4:9 And whenever the living creatures give glory and honor and thanks to him who is seated on the throne, who lives forever and ever,
Rev 4:10 the twenty-four elders fall down before him who is seated on the throne and worship him who lives forever and ever. They cast their crowns before the throne, saying,

Rev 5:13 And I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and in the sea, and all that is in them, saying, “To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be blessing and honor and glory and might forever and ever!”

Again, the same thing. Just because God is eternal doesn't mean that aion means eternal. The phrases are correctly translated ages of ages.

If I said, "God is eternal so He's going to be around for a while," does "a while" now mean eternity? Obviously not.

Rev 7:12 saying, “Amen! Blessing and glory and wisdom and thanksgiving and honor and power and might be to our God forever and ever! Amen.”

Rev 10:6 and swore by him who lives forever and ever, who created heaven and what is in it, the earth and what is in it, and the sea and what is in it, that there would be no more delay,

Rev 11:15 Then the seventh angel blew his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, saying, “The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he shall reign forever and ever.”

Rev 15:7 And one of the four living creatures gave to the seven angels seven golden bowls full of the wrath of God who lives forever and ever,

Those are all in reference to God and to Christ, and I don't think anyone would argue that it doesn't mean eternal in these instances. And also of this one, speaking of believers:

Rev 22:5 And night will be no more. They will need no light of lamp or sun, for the Lord God will be their light, and they will reign forever and ever.

(All ESV.)

All of that supports the translation of aion in Matt 25:41, 46 as eternal or everlasting.

No, they don't. That idea is being forced onto the text. As I said, just because the words are used of God and God is eternal it doesn't mean the word aion means eternal. It means an age. Every one of these passages that you posted could easily be translated ages of ages and they would be correct and make sense. When aion is translated as age it makes sense everywhere it appears in Scripture. When it translated as forever it makes no sense in at least 50% of the places it occurs. That shows us clearly that the translation of forever is wrong.

 

[Butch5]

I've given you examples of rapture and Babylon the Great, you ignored what I said, I won't repeat myself.

The rapture isn't a mystery. Neither is Babylon. You say two things but you don't explain. If it's a mystery it needs to be explained

"Ends" by what measure? Is Jesus right or wrong by acting in capacity of the sun and the moon?

You don't answer a question with a question. Was Jesus right or wrong?

 

[Randy]

I do. So do Jesus and the apostles.

Whats your translation then for the greek in rev 20:10 ? The testimony in Rev was given by Jesus.
Tortmented day and night to the ages of the ages. Being executed is not torment and wouldn't state day and night forever. A soul in the lake of fire is someone who perishes never to rise again.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

The rapture isn't a mystery. Neither is Babylon. You say two things but you don't explain. If it's a mystery it needs to be explained

Then how about you explain it to me? It's a mystery because it's NOT explained. I did the same which Paul did - he TOLD a mystery, he didn't necessarily "explain" it.

You don't answer a question with a question. Was Jesus right or wrong?

The subject of "was Jesus right or wrong" is whether there's an "end" to an "aion", right? I ask you "end" by what measure, how is this "end" determined, that's a legitimate question, I'm not ignoring what you said. There's no definitive answer to your question as long as there's no definitive answer to mine.

There shall be no night there: They need no lamp nor light of the sun, for the Lord God gives them light. And they shall reign forever and ever. (Rev. 22:5)

 

[Hopeful 2]

Exactly! Which means aion doesn't mean forever or eternity.

So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just, And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. (Mat 13:49-50 KJV)

Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: (Mat 25:41 KJV)

In these two passages the words "world" and "everlasting" are the same Greek word. Why do you suppose they didn't translate it everlasting in both places?

Actually, it is "end of the world" and "everlasting" that are translated from aion.
Aion means "an age".
So, "the end of an age", and "the next age".

 

[Free]

That's an assumption. It's also circular. You're using the word in question to define the word in question.

What is the assumption? How am I using the word to define the word? You do know that context determines meaning, yes?

And, can you please actually address the points I gave.

Again, you're making an assumption. You stopped too soon. You should have included verse 12.

And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name. Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
The word translated here means, at that location. So, if this speaking of eternal torment then you'll need to explain why the saints are there. Do the saints also suffer eternal torment?

Again, what is the assumption? Location? No, you have completely misunderstood the verse.

Rev 14:12 Here is a call for the endurance of the saints, those who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus. (ESV)

It is simply a “a call for the endurance of the saints,” as opposed to those who received the mark of the beast. It’s a repeat of Rev 13:10:

Rev 13:10 If anyone is to be taken captive, to captivity he goes; if anyone is to be slain with the sword, with the sword must he be slain. Here is a call for the endurance and faith of the saints. (ESV)

Besides, even if it did mean location, which it doesn’t, then you have to explain what is being said and how location is relevant.

Again, this is assumption. It's being assumed that aion means eternal and that's being read back into the text.

You’re not understanding my point. You’re not taking everything I am stating within the context that I gave, namely, that context determines meaning. In the process, you ignored that I stated: “The repetition, particularly of aion, is used for emphasis and strongly suggests eternality.”

The phrase is literally eis tous aionas ton aionon, and literally translates as “to the ages of the ages.” But, that is a reference for eterntiy, as many of the passages I gave show. That is the point. It can’t mean anything else

Who made them a kingdom of priests? It was Christ, correct? Christ's dominion doesn't last forever.

Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all. (1 Cor 15:24-28 KJV)

Christ reigns until all things are put under Him. Then He turns the Kingdom over to the Father. If He turns the Kingdom over, then His dominion ends, thus aion doesn't mean forever.

Then your argument is with John’s inspired writing.

Again, the same thing. Just because God is eternal doesn't mean that aion means eternal. The phrases are correctly translated ages of ages.

Which means eternal. There is literally nothing else it can mean.

If I said, "God is eternal so He's going to be around for a while," does "a while" now mean eternity? Obviously not.

It would depend on what you meant by “He’s going to be around.” Of you are referring to his existence, then yes, it would refer to eternity.

No, they don't. That idea is being forced onto the text. As I said, just because the words are used of God and God is eternal it doesn't mean the word aion means eternal. It means an age. Every one of these passages that you posted could easily be translated ages of ages and they would be correct and make sense. When aion is translated as age it makes sense everywhere it appears in Scripture. When it translated as forever it makes no sense in at least 50% of the places it occurs. That shows us clearly that the translation of forever is wrong.

We’re not dealing with a single use of aion, but a phrase where it is repeated. By simply repeating that the translation should be “ages of ages,” you’re actually not explaining what the text means. It has to be referring to something. What does “ages of ages” mean, if not eternity?

 

[Butch5]

Whats your translation then for the greek in rev 20:10 ? The testimony in Rev was given by Jesus.
Tortmented day and night to the ages of the ages. Being executed is not torment and wouldn't state day and night forever. A soul in the lake of fire is someone who perishes never to rise again.

The passage speaks only of three individuals. It doesn't speak of mankind. Ages of ages can be a finite time period. Actually we know it has to be because Jeremiah tells us that the Lake of Fire will one day be restored and made Holy to the Lord. If it's restored and made Holy then it can't burn for eternity.

Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, That the city shall be built to the Lord From the tower of Hananeel unto the gate of the corner. And the measuring line shall yet go forth over against it Upon the hill Gareb, and shall compass about to Goath. And the whole valley of the dead bodies, and of the ashes And all the fields unto the brook of Kidron,
Unto the corner of the horse gate toward the east, Shall be holy unto the Lord;
It shall not be plucked up, nor thrown down any more for ever. (Jer. 31:38-40 KJV)

Also, the book of Revelation is a book of symbolism. So, it wouldn't be surprising to see figurative language here. Much of the book is figurative language. Surely we don't think that when Jesus was on earth he looked like a slain lamb and had seven eyes. Yet, that is how the book of Revelation portrays Him. It portrays death and the grave as living beings riding a horse. Surely no one thinks death or the grave are alive and ride horses. The book is full of symbolism. That's one reason why I find it rather odd that people use this book to argue that aion means eternal.

In this passage it says Babylon will be found no more.

And a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone, and cast it into the sea, saying,
Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all. (Rev 18:21 KJV)

Yet, a chapter later we find the smoke rising.

For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand. And again they said, Alleluia. And her smoke rose up for ever and ever. (Rev 19:2-3 KJV)

If aion means forever, how can Babylon be found no more? If the smoke rises fro eternity then it could easily be found. Just look for the smoke. However, if aion means an age then there is a time when the smoke stops rising and Babylon could be found no more. If we translate aion as an age both passages can be reconciled. If we translate it as forever, the two passages contradict one another. This shows us that forever is an incorrect definition.

 

[Butch5]

Actually, it is "end of the world" and "everlasting" that are translated from aion.
Aion means "an age".
So, "the end of an age", and "the next age".

Agreed. However, eternity or forever, doesn't end. Thus there can't be an end of the eternity and an eternity to come.

 

[Butch5]

Then how about you explain it to me? It's a mystery because it's NOT explained. I did the same which Paul did - he TOLD a mystery, he didn't necessarily "explain" it.

Sure! The word rapture comes from Latin. However, the idea in the Bible comes from the Greek word Parousia. Paul is referring to a practice of the Romans. When a magistrate had a big victory, upon his return the people of the city would come out to meet him and accompany him the rest of the way. It was a time of great celebration. This is what we see in Scripture. When Christ returns He comes in the air. Then His followers are caught up into the air to meet Him and accompany Him back to the earth.

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of athe earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

The Holy Bible: King James Version, Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), Mt 24:29–31.

The Latin based rapture is just a small part of the Parousia. It's the part mentioned above when the angels gather the elect from the four winds.

The subject of "was Jesus right or wrong" is whether there's an "end" to an "aion", right? I ask you "end" by what measure, how is this "end" determined, that's a legitimate question, I'm not ignoring what you said. There's no definitive answer to your question as long as there's no definitive answer to mine.

We don't need to know by what measure. The question is, does it end, period. How it ends, why it ends, or where it ends, is irrelevant. The question is, does it end? It seems to me that you're leaving open the possibility that Jesus is wrong. Is that correct?

There shall be no night there: They need no lamp nor light of the sun, for the Lord God gives them light. And they shall reign forever and ever. (Rev. 22:5)

I'm not sure how this helps you. It speaks of the city of Jerusalem. That doesn't mean the sun and moon won't affect the rest of the world.