[_ Old Earth _] Another Error Found

[GodsGrace]

P.S.

NOT POLITICALLY!!!!!!!

 

[Cygnus]

Your argument was that new genes don't arise and are beneficial. I then produced a paper that demonstrates that yes there are beneficial genes that do arise. What do you say in defense of your original argument?
Then you didn't read the paper. Your argument is that they are still fruit flies. The theory of Evolution states that organisms change and are modified by genetic factors through generations and population mechanics. You statement that they are just fruit flies is the same as saying the split between feline and canine is just more vertabrates. The fact that whole species of flies were bread and some even became isolated breading wise shows exactly how speciation works.

Yet you ignore the new traits of being able to live in extremely mineral dense water. Advancing of other senses to deal with blindness, and the changes in metabolism that allow the fish to thrive in that enviroment. Your knowledge of the subject is shorty and your ignorance is not a strength. If you want to argue that science and the literal reading of the old testament don't match up, that is one thing. Pretending you know more than you do about biology and trying to tear down hundreds of years of research and findings just because it doesn't fit with your view is a completely different scenario.

Evolution is suppose to be this big time thing that created every living thing......and this is your reply?
You said "The theory of Evolution states that organisms change and are modified by genetic factors through generations and population mechanics.".....OK, through generations....are you ready to explain how that can possibly happen?
Lets start with this...of all of the mutations...what percentage is considered as beneficial...(ball park figure)

 

[Milk-Drops]

Evolution is suppose to be this big time thing that created every living thing......and this is your reply?

Here is the thing. You are treating the theory of evolution. As if it's a being creating things. It's not, it's the theory on on how several different biological factor work together and result in the changing and diversifying of living organisms. That's it. It's like the theories that surround gravity ormusic it's the explanation of observed phenomenons.

You said "The theory of Evolution states that organisms change and are modified by genetic factors through generations and population mechanics.".....OK, through generations....are you ready to explain how that can possibly happen?

Yeah, do you have several weeks to learn about genetic and population mechanics?

Lets start with this...of all of the mutations...what percentage is considered as beneficial...(ball park figure)

It's impossible to state, but it doesn't even matter. You said their wasn't any, well that paper you hand waved away showed you were wrong. A percentage doesn't change that, a percentaur won't change the divergence of plants, animals, bacteria, fungus, and archea. A percentage won't remove the multitudes of gentic testing and cataloging or inherited traits. A percentage won't change the fact that thousands of medications are developed every year based on these biological principles. It won't change the countless specimens found from using the theory to find organisms to match what we expect to find if the theory is true.

You are here claiming positive genes don't exist when most of the world's agriculture is a result of these benefits.

Do you have anything that can compete with that or are you just going to keep arguing I relevant points that don't even defend your original statement?

 

[Milk-Drops]

The new enzyme system in bacteria...

Would this be the reason why it's becoming resistant to antibiotics?
This would be a form of survival on the bacteria's part...

Definately. This is an examplenof n population mechanics in the wild. Bacteria with the genetic abality to resist specific antibiotics and vacines thrive over the rest and can become isolated from the rest of the bacteria. This can lead to a new strain of the disease.

 

[Barbarian]

Yes Barb.
It IS amazing.
It's also amazing how you seem to know everything.

I know the secret for appearing to know everything.

Only talk about things you know. I'm really old, and I spent a lifetime studying biology. So a lot of stuff.

Do you have any neighbors you could actually talk to??

My wife, when she starts taking about medical insurance and how the rules work, usually leaves me with my head hurting. She's got the mind of an auditor and the kind of attention to detail that constantly amazes me. So I only have to go across the room to feel intellectually inferior.

LOL
You're too intelligent!!

At her job, if no one can figure something out, they ask her. And she works for a university. If they think there's no way they can get a procedure approved, they go to her.

 

[Barbarian]

The vast percentage of mutations do nothing noticable. All of us have a dozen or so mutations that were not present in either parent. A few of them are harmful. A very few are useful. Natural selection sorts them out.

This is why, as Darwin observed, that a well-adapted population of organisms, in a relatively constant environment, shouldn't evolve much. And they don't. But a population in a new environment goes through rapid evolution, because the relative number of useful mutations rise.

How fast is rather surprising. One population of lizards, introduced to a new island in the Adriatic Sea, evolved a new digestive organ in a few decades. Would you like to learn about that?

 

[GodsGrace]

The vast percentage of mutations do nothing noticable. All of us have a dozen or so mutations that were not present in either parent. A few of them are harmful. A very few are useful. Natural selection sorts them out.

This is why, as Darwin observed, that a well-adapted population of organisms, in a relatively constant environment, shouldn't evolve much. And they don't. But a population in a new environment goes through rapid evolution, because the relative number of useful mutations rise.

How fast is rather surprising. One population of lizards, introduced to a new island in the Adriatic Sea, evolved a new digestive organ in a few decades. Would you like to learn about that?

Let's see.
They got moved to a new island.
New food they weren't used to.
Right?

O K
So why didn't they just become extinct?

Yes. Tell us.

 

[Barbarian]

Let's see.
They got moved to a new island.
New food they weren't used to.
Right?

Yep. Mostly plant material, and they were mostly carnivores.

So why didn't they just become extinct?

Apparently, most of them died. A few managed to hang on, probably because they had slightly longer digestive tracts, and could better digest plant material thereby. But you can only lengthen a tract so long. Those with slightly more convoluted tracts did better. And over time that led to the evolution of a new anatomical feature, a spiral valve that greatly increased the surface area of the digestive tract. A second anatomical change was larger and stronger jaws.

Not that surprising that it evolved that way. It's very typical for carnivores to gain longer digestive tracts and better chewing mechanisms when they adapt to plant food. But what was surprising was how fast these structures evolved.

 

[GodsGrace]

Yep. Mostly plant material, and they were mostly carnivores.



Apparently, most of them died. A few managed to hang on, probably because they had slightly longer digestive tracts, and could better digest plant material thereby. But you can only lengthen a tract so long. Those with slightly more convoluted tracts did better. And over time that led to the evolution of a new anatomical feature, a spiral valve that greatly increased the surface area of the digestive tract. A second anatomical change was larger and stronger jaws.

Not that surprising that it evolved that way. It's very typical for carnivores to gain longer digestive tracts and better chewing mechanisms when they adapt to plant food. But what was surprising was how fast these structures evolved.

Yes. I meant to mention about the rapid evolution.
Incredible.
I was also surprised about the better chewing mechanism for plant food. Maybe because it's " finer". Otherwise the plant food would pretty much be swallowed whole.

I remember seeing fish with no eyes at the aquarium in Brooklyn because they lived in the dark. No need for eyes.

It's all very interesting...

 

[Barbarian]

plant cells are protected with a wall that has to be broken down before the nutrients are available. So more chewing and longer digestive systems are a big deal. I would be interested to see if the gut flora (bacteria) of these lizards is changed. I'd wager they have; cellulose digesting microbes would be a big help.

 

[Barbarian]

I remember seeing fish with no eyes at the aquarium in Brooklyn because they lived in the dark. No need for eyes.

Eyes are nervous tissue; in vertebrates, they are actually made of brain tissue and like all brain tissue, require a very high level of nutrition. So it's metabolically very costly to have eyes. Not surprisingly, they tend to go away when there is no need for them.

 

[GodsGrace]

Eyes are nervous tissue; in vertebrates, they are actually made of brain tissue and like all brain tissue, require a very high level of nutrition. So it's metabolically very costly to have eyes. Not surprisingly, they tend to go away when there is no need for them.

I read somewhere that eyes are so complicated that they alone would require a creator.
We could " loose " eyes, like the fish, but we could never get them through evolution .

Tomorrow...

 

[Milk-Drops]

I read somewhere that eyes are so complicated that they alone would require a creator.
We could " loose " eyes, like the fish, but we could never get them through evolution .

Tomorrow...

Darwin brought up the complexity of the eye in the origin of species and many creation sights even use his argument. However the eye is very well studied and mapped. Even in Darwin's day ( and actually in the next paragraph most quote from him) there were already quite a few examples of organisms with eyes at separate stages. It is very interesting.

 

[Cygnus]

Here is the thing. You are treating the theory of evolution. As if it's a being creating things. It's not, it's the theory on on how several different biological factor work together and result in the changing and diversifying of living organisms. That's it. It's like the theories that surround gravity ormusic it's the explanation of observed phenomenons.

Several different biological factors working together.......that's what helps kill the theory of evolutionism....working together means more complicated. In other words a random mutation, random beneficial mutation I might add... arrives on the scene...at just the right spot and right time in a species DNA. By chance several different biological factor work together...

So, Milk-drops....How do mutations add up? What are the odds of a second beneficial mutation coming along in an animals progeny that effects a previous? Can you answer the questions?

 

[Cygnus]

Would this be the reason why it's becoming resistant to antibiotics?

Here's the question to ask.....do they become resistant...OR...are some of them already resistant?

 

[Cygnus]

The vast percentage of mutations do nothing noticable. All of us have a dozen or so mutations that were not present in either parent. A few of them are harmful. A very few are useful. Natural selection sorts them out

So, we have a dozen or so mutations....a very few are useful? Really? How many?

 

[Milk-Drops]

Several different biological factors working together.......that's what helps kill the theory of evolutionism....

What? I'm guessing you really don't know much outside of theology. Considering that you don't bring up any biological mechanisms unless someone else does, and then you don't address issues you have with the mechanics, but instead just stick to generalities and pre-made arguments.

working together means more complicated. In other words a random mutation, random beneficial mutation I might add... arrives on the scene...at just the right spot and right time in a species DNA.

You are aware that there are more extinct than living species right? This right place right time stuff isn't what evolution is. Things happen, the world then reacts to things happening.

By chance several different biological factor work together...

Mechanics don't run on chance. They run in predictable ways. That is why theories and laws are possible.

So, Milk-drops....How do mutations add up?

What do you mean add up? Do you mean how are genes expressed? Like a mutation is introduced into a population, if its beneficial and the organism passes it on through procreation it has a chance of becoming a wide spread trait. Most mutations are neutral and its only when pressures act on the organisms that it becomes positive or negative. If pressures are easier on the organism with the mutation and its lineage, then it spreads. Isolation would then happen if selection pressures drive populations apart.

What are the odds of a second beneficial mutation coming along in an animals progeny that effects a previous?

I wouldn't know where to start, because population mechanics vary depending on the organisms and unless we are examining specific populations, I wouldn't be able to tell you.

Can you answer the questions?

No because your question doesn't actually make any sense with how The theory of evolution actually works. I can't pull numbers out of thin air because populations vary and knowing when a trait or going to mutate is next to impossible and irrelevant to how the theory works in the first place.

 

[GodsGrace]

Here's the question to ask.....do they become resistant...OR...are some of them already resistant?

I would say that they BECOME resistant.

Penicillin worked great and very little was needed.
Now it doesn't work anymore.

This means a general change too place.

We need stronger and stronger antibiotics. This means the bacteria grows resistant to them.
It would also be interesting to understand why virus are resistant to everything.

This is all opinion. I know nothing...

 

[Barbarian]

I read somewhere that eyes are so complicated that they alone would require a creator.

Nature is so complicated that it required a creator. The miracle is in creating a universe in which such thing can be brought forth by the Earth. That's what happened, according to God.

We could " loose " eyes, like the fish, but we could never get them through evolution .

We can still find every stage in the evolution of eyes in existing organisms. What stage in the evolution of eyes do you think is impossible?

 

[Barbarian]

Here's the question to ask.....do they become resistant...OR...are some of them already resistant?

We know that useful new mutations happen because (for example), we can establish a culture of bacteria from a single bacterium, and watch them happen. The evolution of an irreducibly complex new enzyme systems was observed in the bacteria from a single organism. Would you like to learn how we know?

The nylon gene codes for an enzyme that digests a substance that doesn't even exist in nature. And yet, not long ago, bacteria evolved this useful new trait. They are found in waste ponds of factories making nylon, where they live on nylon oligomers. It was thought that it would take millions of years for bacteria to evolve enzymes for synthetic compounds. It took less than a century.