[_ Old Earth _] Another Error Found

[Barbarian]

So, we have a dozen or so mutations....a very few are useful? Really? How many?

Let's say that one mutation in a million is a useful one. In a population of 3 million organisms (most species have many, many more organisms) then we will have 3 new useful mutations in a generation. In a hundred generations, that's 300 new useful alleles. Since humans have about 30,000 genes, in 2000 years, we would see about 1% of the human genome modified. Our species has been around for maybe 800,000 years.

And we have seen, in various existing human populations, numerous useful mutations such as those in Tibetans, evolved for high-altitude, of Europeans for resistance to plague and HIV, and so on. The data from humans shows that favorable mutations are much more than one in a million.

So a lot.

 

[Barbarian]

So, Milk-drops....How do mutations add up?

That's pretty easy to understand. The distribution of genes in a population, each generation, determines what can be mutated the next. So as Barry Hall saw, in the evolution of the lac operon, an enzyme that initially had only a generalized protein activity, gradually became precisely modified to act on the new substance. Each step in the evolution of the enzyme was useful because it helped the organism survive. And each new generation, any new mutation that improved that enzyme was strongly selected for.

Would you like me to show you an experiment where you can see how the mathematics of this process go?

 

[Cygnus]

What? I'm guessing you really don't know much outside of theology. Considering that you don't bring up any biological mechanisms unless someone else does, and then you don't address issues you have with the mechanics, but instead just stick to generalities and pre-made arguments.

The issue was addressed....you didn't answer it. You brought up. different biological factors. I helped you see this complicated things and presented more of a problem for you. Nw I'm trying to move you from the comic book version of evolutionism and help you see what it really is and just how impossible it is.

You are aware that there are more extinct than living species right? This right place right time stuff isn't what evolution is. Things happen, the world then reacts to things happening.

So a mutation in the wrong place will or will not effect a trait not associated with a trait that had a previous morphological change that enhanced the fitness of the organism.
Keep in mind many species went extinct during the flood of Noah.

Mechanics don't run on chance. They run in predictable ways. That is why theories and laws are possible.

Are you saying mutations are directed by an intelligent being...and don't happen by chance? And here you went and opened up your post with ...."I'm guessing you really don't know much outside of theology." That statement has been re-directed towards you.

What do you mean add up? Do you mean how are genes expressed? Like a mutation is introduced into a population, if its beneficial and the organism passes it on through procreation it has a chance of becoming a wide spread trait. Most mutations are neutral and its only when pressures act on the organisms that it becomes positive or negative. If pressures are easier on the organism with the mutation and its lineage, then it spreads. Isolation would then happen if selection pressures drive populations apart.

You do understand that a trait must be effected by more than one random mutation in a organism progeny for it to be realized?
How does that happen a second, third, fourth.....tenth.....60th time?

I wouldn't know where to start, because population mechanics vary depending on the organisms and unless we are examining specific populations, I wouldn't be able to tell you.

This must be the part where faith enters into your belief in evolutionism. You can't tell me.

No because your question doesn't actually make any sense with how The theory of evolution actually works. I can't pull numbers out of thin air because populations vary and knowing when a trait or going to mutate is next to impossible and irrelevant to how the theory works in the first place.

Your last three answers have been complete duds....non answers....
You claim you understand evolutionism....but your real answer is....I/we don't know.

 

[Cygnus]

I would say that they BECOME resistant.

Penicillin worked great and very little was needed.
Now it doesn't work anymore.

This means a general change too place.

We need stronger and stronger antibiotics. This means the bacteria grows resistant to them.
It would also be interesting to understand why virus are resistant to everything.

This is all opinion. I know nothing...

I believe they already exist. In a sense pre-selected. Just like some people are tall and better at basketball that the rest of the population.

 

[Cygnus]

We can still find every stage in the evolution of eyes in existing organisms. What stage in the evolution of eyes do you think is impossible?

Every stage. The eye its to complicated to have formed by chance.

 

[Cygnus]

Let's say that one mutation in a million is a useful one.

You might as well have said...Let's say that one mutation in a hundred is a useful one. OR...Let's say that one mutation in a trillion is a useful one.
Lets make up numbers!!!!!

 

[Cygnus]

gradually became precisely modified to act on the new substance.

I'm sure it did.
Hall’s work needs critical evaluation. Mutations in the Ebg system are clearly not an example of evolution but mutation and natural selection allowing for adaptation to the environment. Several possibilities for the function of the Ebg system are suggested. In addition, there is an assessment of the likelihood of these mutations in the ebg operon occurring in a natural setting. An implication of this research is an understanding that adaptive mutation makes “limited” changes which severely restrict its use as a mechanism for evolution.

Adaptive mutations can readily fit within a creation model where adaptive mechanisms are a designed feature of bacteria. Further understanding of these mutations in the ebg operon may help the development of a creation model for adaptation of bacterial populations in response to the adverse environmental conditions in a post-Fall, post-Flood world. ref

 

[GodsGrace]

Nature is so complicated that it required a creator. The miracle is in creating a universe in which such thing can be brought forth by the Earth. That's what happened, according to God.

We can still find every stage in the evolution of eyes in existing organisms. What stage in the evolution of eyes do you think is impossible?

Barb,
I don't know enough to say.
To me personally, it would be how it connects to the brain allowing us to see.
All those tiny parts in the eye, and even in the ear --- it seems like a miracle more than evolution.
I guess this is what I meant. That God's hand had to be in this complicated organism we call the body.

 

[GodsGrace]

I believe they already exist. In a sense pre-selected. Just like some people are tall and better at basketball that the rest of the population.

So, are you saying it's "survival of the fittest"?
The stronger ones just "took over"?
And this is the reason penicilin doesn't work anymore?

 

[Cygnus]

So, are you saying it's "survival of the fittest"?
The stronger ones just "took over"?
And this is the reason penicilin doesn't work anymore?

I'm saying for the most part they already had the ability to survive.
Also.....keep in mind bacteria can exchange "genetics" simply by bumping into each other.

To be honest I really don't consider much when evolutionist use bacteria to show evolutionism.

 

[Barbarian]

I don't know enough to say.
To me personally, it would be how it connects to the brain allowing us to see.
All those tiny parts in the eye, and even in the ear --- it seems like a miracle more than evolution.

St. Augustine once commented on the way we are amazed at a simple turning of water to wine, and are unable to see that nature is itself a much greater miracle. God is completely capable of making nature so that it brings things forth according to His will. That's what He tells us in Scripture.

I guess this is what I meant. That God's hand had to be in this complicated organism we call the body.

It was in creating a universe in which such thing can become fact. He's not a little middle eastern nature god, prancing around, making a rabbit here and a flower there. He is the Creator of the universe. And it procedes according to His will.

 

[Barbarian]

I'm saying for the most part they already had the ability to survive.

In the sense that God gave them the ability to vary genetically, and thereby evolve to survive.

Also.....keep in mind bacteria can exchange "genetics" simply by bumping into each other.

Lateral gene transfer can happen in higher organisms as well, but that's not what happened in the newly-evolved enzyme system, that evolved from a population arising from a single individual.

To be honest I really don't consider much when evolutionist use bacteria to show evolutionism.

Creationists regard it as cheating, because bacteria reproduce rapidly, showing the effects of many individuals over many generations. Which is what everything else does, but it takes longer.

 

[Milk-Drops]

The issue was addressed....

Yes, you were shown to be wrong on your assertion that no new beneficial mutation arise.

you didn't answer it.

I linked you to a paper that explained the research done and its findings on exactly what you asked. If you continue this farse I'll report you.

You brought up. different biological factors.

And gave you a brief explanation on the factors and even invited you to ask more about them. Instead you brushed them off.

I helped you see this complicated things and presented more of a problem for you.

No, you hand waved away my explanations and invitations to inquire more. Saying something isn't right doesn't mean you helped me.

Nw I'm trying to move you from the comic book version of evolutionism and help you see what it really is and just how impossible it is.

All you have done is state that beneficial mutations don't exist, and that the theory of evolution is false because ( actually you have not even explained why its wrong). You haven't produced anything, just stated everyone else is wrong. I don't think you understand what helping is. You have to at least understand the subject matter you want to critique in the first place in order to convince someone that its wrong. You have so far shown that you don't understand it.

So a mutation in the wrong place will or will not effect a trait

Mutations can effect other traits. It depends on the sequence.

not associated with a trait that had a previous morphological change that enhanced the fitness of the organism.

I think you are confused. If an organism gains a mutations that is beneficial, then the next generation has a mutation that effects the other mutation, then yes their will be a difference. I'm not sure where you are going with this though.

Keep in mind many species went extinct during the flood of Noah.

I don't believe in the flood of Noah, and its ok if you do.

Are you saying mutations are directed by an intelligent being...

NO

and don't happen by chance?

They do happen by chance.

And here you went and opened up your post with ...."I'm guessing you really don't know much outside of theology." That statement has been re-directed towards you.

Cygnus, you project on people a lot. You actually were wrong about your statement that beneficial mutations don't happen. I don't know why you won't acknowledge this. I actually know a few things about population mechanics, biology, and the theory of evolution. You have yet to demonstrate this yourself.

You do understand that a trait must be effected by more than one random mutation in a organism progeny for it to be realized?

Would you like to explain your reason for believing this?

How does that happen a second, third, fourth.....tenth.....60th time?

Would you like to explain what you mean? If you are asking how a mutation spreads, that is easy. Sexual selection and lineage. The mutation is passed down and inherited. This is why I brought up population mechanics.

This must be the part where faith enters into your belief in evolutionism. You can't tell me.

What you are asking doesn't make sense because its irreverent to how the theory works. To make it clear, Evolution doesn't care about where the organism came from, it just cares about how its lineage is effected and adapts. Asking what the percent chances of a mutation doesn't matter. what happens when the mutation happens does.

Your last three answers have been complete duds....non answers....

Because your questions have nothing to do with how evolution works, but with random percentages that don't mean anything. Your questions are equivalent to trying to disprove gravity by asking what is the chance of a single person getting hit by a meteor.

You claim you understand evolutionism....

No, I said I accept the Theory of Evoltuion, but I by know means follow any ideaology named Evolutionism.

but your real answer is....I/we don't know.

My actual answer is that I think you want to disprove something you know next to nothing about. You think that your misinformed questions that make no sense to people who know what the theory of evolution disprove it, but all it does for me is solidify that you need to hit the books. Your ignorance isn't a strength.

 

[Barbarian]

Hall’s work needs critical evaluation.

It got that's why his paper is in a real scientific journal, and his critics can't get publish thereby.

Mutations in the Ebg system are clearly not an example of evolution but mutation and natural selection allowing for adaptation to the environment.

That's like saying the backstroke isn't an example of swimming, but moving through water by moving one's arms and legs. This goes back to what we were talking about earlier. Most creationists have no idea what evolution is, or how evolutionary theory describes it.

Several possibilities for the function of the Ebg system are suggested.

Unfortunately for your author, none of them fit the actual data.

In addition, there is an assessment of the likelihood of these mutations in the ebg operon occurring in a natural setting.

The initial mutation probably shows up a lot, but not the subsequent modifications of the first mutation. Nevertheless, we know that the original bacterium from which the population grew, did not have that mutation. Would you like to learn why?

An implication of this research is an understanding that adaptive mutation makes “limited” changes which severely restrict its use as a mechanism for evolution.

Nope. The evolution of irreducibly complex features makes it very clear that your author is wrong. But let's test his unsupported assertion: show me a function that could not have evolved in gradual steps.

 

[Barbarian]

You might as well have said...Let's say that one mutation in a hundred is a useful one.

I used a very conservative estimate. As you learned, there are a great number of favorable mutations in humans. Many of these have appeared in historical times, so we know the ratio of favorable to neutral or unfavorable, is much better than one in a million.

 

[Barbarian]

Every stage. The eye its to complicated to have formed by chance.

Darwin's great discovery was that evolution does not happen by chance. Would you like to learn why?

But let's go to the beginning. Bacteria with no light-sensitive structures, are able to sense light and move toward it or away from it as they need. You have the same ability. If you go shirtless in bright sunlight, you will notice that you can detect light with your skin.

However, if you have someone paint a black spot on your back, you'll find that your ability is greatly enhanced.

So unless you want to tell us that a mutation can't cause a concentration of pigment, you've conceded that the first step can evolve. Which is is?

 

[Cygnus]

St. Augustine once commented on the way we are amazed at a simple turning of water to wine, and are unable to see that nature is itself a much greater miracle. God is completely capable of making nature so that it brings things forth according to His will. That's what He tells us in Scripture.

Yes, God told us He made Adam from the dust then Eve from Adams rib...God can bring things forth according to His will.

 

[Cygnus]

Darwin's great discovery was that evolution does not happen by chance. Would you like to learn why?

Part of the process of evolutionism is chance.....would you like to learn why?

 

[Cygnus]

I used a very conservative estimate. As you learned, there are a great number of favorable mutations in humans. Many of these have appeared in historical times, so we know the ratio of favorable to neutral or unfavorable, is much better than one in a million.

LOL

 

[Barbarian]

Barbarian observes:
Darwin's great discovery was that evolution does not happen by chance. Would you like to learn why?

Part of the process of evolutionism is chance.....

I'm pretty sure that "evolutionism" is by chance. It's evolution that isn't random. Random mutation plus natural selection isn't random at all.

Here's a way to check that:

Roll two dice 100 times and write down the sum of the two dice every time. Graph the frequency of each number. That's randomness.

Then do it again and simulate natural selection by only writing down numbers less than four or greater than nine. Graph the distribution again. Why is the result not random?