Another view on Blood Pressure medication

[tim-from-pa]

My favorite Internet doctor Douglass is at it again with his controversial remarks, in which case I agree with him --- or at least if one has high blood pressure, there's better ways to take care of it. Here's his email message about the subject:

The truth behind new BP drug claims

Take your blood pressure meds and you'll live longer -- unless, of course, you don't.

Maybe you've seen the new study that claims people who take drugs for hypertension outlive people who don't -- but there's one part of the study you almost certainly didn't see: The people who took the meds actually died at almost exactly the same rate as the ones who didn't.

Confused? I don't blame you!

But don't worry. I'll sort it out for you. Because as usual, this study (like so many others) is nothing more than pill-pushing nonsense from the mainstream, a shell game where they're trying to hide the REAL conclusion behind their flashy numbers.

Here's what's under the first shell: Back in the 1980s, some 4,700 seniors were put on either BP meds or a placebo and tracked for 4.5 years. Then, when docs checked in on them some 22 years after the study ended, they found that 28.3 percent of the BP med patients ultimately died of cardiovascular causes, versus 31 percent of those who had been on the placebo.

Sounds like a win for the drugs, right?

But look beneath the other shell -- the one they're trying to hide -- and you'll see that over those same 22 years, 59.9 percent of those on meds died overall... along with 60.5 percent of those who had been given a placebo.

That, my friends, is no difference at all. So despite all the hype and headlines, BP meds might put a little dent in your risk of dying of heart disease, but they won't actually reduce your overall risk of death.

Or, as lead researcher Dr. John B. Kostis confessed, "You have the opportunity of dying from something else."

Yes, that's right -- the "opportunity" to die of something other than heart disease.

Listen, it would be one thing if the pill magically helped extend lives... but if you're simply trading one form of death for another AND risking drug side effects to boot, I'd say skip the pills.

Hypertension is over-treated in the first place -- and even if you do need to bring your numbers down, you can do it without meds. Start by giving up sugar, and you really will live longer.

 

[Fedusenko]

And add Cayenne pepper to your diet.

 

[tim-from-pa]

And add Cayenne pepper to your diet.

Yes, that's so true. It's a wonderful food containing rich amounts of nutrients..

 

[Seeker]

As a medical student, I would humble make this point: PLEASE take physicians advice with regards to blood pressure! Sure, get a second or third opinion, and if you come across research that worries you then discuss it - by all means! But there is strong evidence that drugs such as beta blockers (albeit no longer used as first line antihypertensives) and alpha-1 inhibitors (prazosin, doxazosin) decrease mortality.

Now, the question of what to do when one is old and nearing death ANYway... That is a separate matter. Many doctors themselves choose to forego complex procedures when they know Uncle Nick's round the corner. But increasingly younger and younger people are suffering from disorders in blood pressure and cardiovascular symptoms. Improve lifestyle - yes. Decrease sugar like you mentioned - yes. But if you need drugs then you need drugs I'm afraid, and CVD symptoms can be pretty bad.

 

[Pard]

Just be healthy and have an active life style. Problem solved. I had bad blood pressure and a bad resting heart rate when I was out of shape and overweight. Like the doctor was going to put me on drugs bad. I lost weight and began running and now my resting heart rate is 55bpm and my blood pressure is 65/108

 

[tim-from-pa]

Physician? Yeah. I'll take their advice. My choice is Dr. Douglass, or maybe a naturopath or Chiropractic. That is if I can't figure it out myself first. So far I've been batting 1000.

Just be healthy and have an active life style. Problem solved. I had bad blood pressure and a bad resting heart rate when I was out of shape and overweight. Like the doctor was going to put me on drugs bad. I lost weight and began running and now my resting heart rate is 55bpm and my blood pressure is 65/108

Good job, Pard. High BP is not the cause of problems, but the symptom of something else going on. But your testimony is exactly what I've been saying all along --- that there is NO SERIOUS efforts on behalf of medicine to really get a person to change their ways. They just tell you so, and the advice given is mostly junk science anyway, and then when nothing happens, they convince you that you "need drugs". No, you probably need a doctor that knows what they are talking about regarding getting back naturally. After all, we were not born with high BP.

 

[Mike]

As a medical student, I would humble make this point: PLEASE take physicians advice with regards to blood pressure! Sure, get a second or third opinion, and if you come across research that worries you then discuss it - by all means! But there is strong evidence that drugs such as beta blockers (albeit no longer used as first line antihypertensives) and alpha-1 inhibitors (prazosin, doxazosin) decrease mortality.

Now, the question of what to do when one is old and nearing death ANYway... That is a separate matter. Many doctors themselves choose to forego complex procedures when they know Uncle Nick's round the corner. But increasingly younger and younger people are suffering from disorders in blood pressure and cardiovascular symptoms. Improve lifestyle - yes. Decrease sugar like you mentioned - yes. But if you need drugs then you need drugs I'm afraid, and CVD symptoms can be pretty bad.

Good advice!

It's dangerous and irresponsible to advise people to go against the treatment plan that a physician (who actually knows their medical history) has laid out. No one should accept everything a physician tells them without questioning it. Nor should they accept the blanket advice given them from people who they've never met and have a built-in bias against the medical community. Every good physician will begin with changes in lifestyle except in extraordinary circumstances. That's basic stepwise therapy. But, their can be heredity at work against some people, and they can definitely benefit from appropriate pharmaceutical options. :yes

 

[Fedusenko]

I don't think that Tim is saying to never take the meds, but that unless you require suppression of a symptom to avoid death (or serious injury) you should avoid the meds. BP meds suppress the BP, but that isn't the problem, just the symptom of the problem. You need to find out what the problem is and fix it.

While doctors are honest, good people, they are taught by pharmaceutical companies and that is a conflict of interest. The system is built to protect the market, not the consumer. That responsibility resides on yourself.

God has supplied everything you need for a healthy life.

 

[Fedusenko]

There are plenty of degree holding physicians that support my previous post regarding BP. There are entire cultures going back hundreds and thousands of years that support it. It isn't voodoo or pseudoscience, but time tested treatments with a proven track record.

But like Mike has stated, don't trust me (the nobody online) or the medical professional (taught by the supplier of the medical resources that the medical professional sells you), but trust yourself. Do your due diligence and research how to take care of God's temple and whenever possible, with the tools that He provided. You ARE smart enough to know what is good and what isn't. You don't need someone else to do so for you.

 

[tim-from-pa]

I don't think that Tim is saying to never take the meds, but that unless you require suppression of a symptom to avoid death (or serious injury) you should avoid the meds. BP meds suppress the BP, but that isn't the problem, just the symptom of the problem. You need to find out what the problem is and fix it.

While doctors are honest, good people, they are taught by pharmaceutical companies and that is a conflict of interest. The system is built to protect the market, not the consumer. That responsibility resides on yourself.

God has supplied everything you need for a healthy life.

Thanks Fedusenko. You said it perfectly and latched on to exactly what I am saying. I'm not sure why people equate associations with causations. If I have a bad headache from a brain tumor, aspirin is not the remedy. And likewise if I have high BP, BP meds won't cure, say, oxidation of my arteries, I'll still eventually die (and probably just as soon) no matter how long I take meds and do tests. But like the aspirin, I can manage the symptoms until I find the cause.

 

[tim-from-pa]

...... Nor should they accept the blanket advice given them from people who they've never met and have a built-in bias against the medical community.

I trust that was not directed against Dr. Douglass, because I know a flake when I see one, and he is not one of them. He's done enough far and wide and has enough credentials to shoot off a bit. Plus, he has something most educated people don't have --- common sense.

The statistics he uses are those of the community that proven that BP pills extend life, and then he reinterpreted them to show that they don't --- their data convicted them, not his. This is a picture frame example of what I been saying that statistics can be made to show anything depending on the point of reference.

 

[Mike]

I don't think that Tim is saying to never take the meds,

Actually, look at Tim's response to your post. Tim believes there is no physical condition that ever warrants the use of prescribed medication. He avoids commenting on your statement above, because he doesn't want it to be obvious that he is a fringe outlier.

Thanks Fedusenko. You said it perfectly and latched on to exactly what I am saying. I'm not sure why people equate associations with causations. If I have a bad headache from a brain tumor, aspirin is not the remedy. And likewise if I have high BP, BP meds won't cure, say, oxidation of my arteries, I'll still eventually die (and probably just as soon) no matter how long I take meds and do tests. But like the aspirin, I can manage the symptoms until I find the cause.

Tim, this mission of yours to rail against the medical sciences is reprehensible and dangerous. Don't drag others into your twisted world of paranoia. This has gotten so old over the past few years.

 

[Fedusenko]

I appreciate your concern for me Mike, but I have come to my stance long before ever joining this forum and longer still since I have met Tim-from-PA on the forums. We have talked via PM and I feel I have a general understanding of his stance. It is very easy for us to mis-speak about an issue that we are charged up about, especially regarding the "Don't take meds" slogans that we wear on our sleeves. As a general rule of thumb, when someone says to not take medication, don't consider it an all or nothing statement, but "If at all possible, don't take meds. Are your dying? Quick take your meds! But if you don't face death or serious injury (a fever of 104 is can cause serious injury), don't take meds."

This mistake of ours is grievous one our part and should be fixed because it misrepresents our intentions.

So you find out your have high blood pressure. The next thing to do is find out why. If you have plaque lining your vessels, then one thing you could start doing is chelation (rid your body of unwanted materials). Eat lots of cilantro because it is a natural chelate (and is very tasty). There is more you can and should do, but this is what we mean by BP meds only addressing the symptom of high BP and not the cause.

Ever have trouble sleeping at night, but don't know why? It is possible that you are constipated and your body is trying to tell you to let that rotting food out of your body. It is possible to become septic if you don't treat it. So how could you possibly treat your troubled sleep? Prune Juice! (Or drinking enough water could cure your constipation if dehydration is the cause)

If you are constipated because you have an inguinal hernia, then you need to seriously consider the extent of the damage and the risk. I have a managed hernia (it is very minor) that shows its ugly head when I become slothful. I am sure you are aware of how I treat it because you know the continual cause (the orginal cause I believe is from lifting equipment a few years ago). I don't need surgery. I don't need the antibiotics they would give me afterwards. I am conscious of my body and so I know how to take care of it. Had I known then what I know now I probably could have avoided the original hernia to begin with.

This is the approach us pro-original healthcare weirdos take.

 

[Mike]

Fed, like I said, every good physician will resort to pharmacotherapy only after lifestyle measures have been tried and failed. My suggestion is if you see a physician who immediately wants to throw pills at a problem where they aren't necessary, you don't walk out. You run out. A good lifestyle isn't always the remedy. After it's determined that it isn't, medication might be the answer.

And also like I said, playing doctor with people's lives on the internet is reckless and dangerous.

 

[jasoncran]

@fedunsko. currently my wife is pre-diabetic and she has also a non functioning the thyroid and will and has gained weight from that. its impossible for her to exercise enough to loose that weight. her back is also bothersome. so she is on a med that is working for her and has lost about 30 lbs which then helps her weight. it not paid for by my insurance.

she eats good and that is all that she can do, all her doctors to my knowledge dont throw pills at her but tell her to eat right and exercise. her shrink says the same. any doctor i have seen told me the same.

 

[tim-from-pa]

Tim, this mission of yours to rail against the medical sciences is reprehensible and dangerous. Don't drag others into your twisted world of paranoia. This has gotten so old over the past few years.

Medical science is a worldly system, Mike.

And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world...

Well, not everyone will see the truth now. Only a few are called to be saved now as the church. More will be saved in the millennium, and the deceived or uncalled even at the Great White Throne Judgment for salvation.

So, yes, for the time being I guess I would sound paranoid to many, but they'll all see later on.

 

[Christ_empowered]

I don't see why it has to be either "Do exactly (and only) what your MD says" or "Don't ever listen to a conventional MD and take meds. Ever."

I don't have high Blood Pressure, but I do have a severe form of Bipolar I (Bipolar I w/Psychotic Features) that requires medication. I take loads of supplements, but I still take 1-2 rather powerful psychiatric medications daily (at least 1, sometimes an additional one to either calm me down or treat depression).

If it wasn't for the supplements, I might be on 5+ meds and dealing with all the problems that sort of cocktail brings (drug costs, side effects, drug-drug interactions, etc.). If it wasn't for the 1-2 meds, I'd probably be in a mental hospital getting pumped full of even less desirable drugs.

I'm all about using pharmaceuticals to improve your life and possibly extend your lifespan, I just don't think every single person should be on meds all the time, and I think its good to keep an eye on costs, risks, and benefits. Just because a medication is shiny and new doesn't mean its the best thing for you (to be fair, this is more of problem with younger docs, at least around here).

Taking care of your health outside the medical establishment is a good idea, but there comes a point when you may need surgery and/or drugs to keep things going smoothly. Honestly, I even use a "lifestyle drug"--Propecia. Could I Just let my hair loss go? Sure. Would I be treated as well in society w/o a full head of hair? Probably not. This is where better living through chemistry can do some amazing things. I also use a medication to keep my razor bumps and skin conditions under control. Could I just let it go? Probably. But again: the right mix of diet, supplements, and carefully selected pharmaceuticals has kept me looking and feeling good, all without any major side effects. My costs are minimal, too, since I get my drugs in generic form from India.