Answering Accusations Against God

[Hidden In Him]

Jude prophesied that men would speak hard words against the Lord during the last days (Jude 1:14-15), so the question presented in this thread is: What would your response be if someone presented the following arguments to you?

Jethro Tull was a popular band around the time I graduated High School. I was not a Christian then so I would not have had any idea what their songs were even about, but in hearing them in later years I came to realize their lyrics were Gnostic in their spiritual orientation, and strong attacks against the character of God. Then I began wondering, "How would I have answered such arguments if I had been a Christian back then, and how would I answer them now?"

In this thread I will present two of their more popular songs, the lyrics, and what those lyrics meant. I will treat Bungle In The Jungle in a later post.
- H

Locomotive Breath. Jethro Tull, 1971.
In the shuffling madness, of the Locomotive Breath
Runs the all-time loser, headlong to his death
Oh, he feels the pistons scraping, steam breaking on his brow
Old Charlie stole the handle, and the train it won't stop, Oh no way to slow down

This song depicts the Creator as having prolonged judgment for six thousand years because He is essentially a jealous and sadistic God, continuing to allow Satan to commit evils and lead humanity into sin rather than stopping him, while nevertheless reserving him and his followers for judgment. Like a locomotive, no one can prevent this situation from continuing because God Himself ("Locomotive Breath") has "stolen the handle" that would put the brakes to it. He is the "all-time winner" in this song, while Satan (depicted sympathetically in typical Gnostic fashion) is "the all-time loser," and this is because things are going precisely according to God's plan. The argument in this song is that it is because He wants it that way.

The writer admitted in an interview that "Old Charlie" was a reference to God, something evidenced within the song itself by how he substitutes God Himself in place of "Old Charlie" in the final verse. Satan knows his judgment is coming, and thus "feels the pistons scraping," and the "steam" of the Lord's breath "breaking on his brow." Yet so long as he is still being allowed to do evil he will, so nothing is stopping evil to continue in the earth or even slow it down a little; a proof of God's supposedly sadistic and vengeful character.

He sees His children jumping off, at the stations one by one
His woman and his best friend, in bed and having fun
Well he's crawling down the corridor, on his hands and knees
Old Charlie He stole the handle, and the train it won't stop going, no way to slow down

With many coming to realize His cruelty, God's children are "jumping off the train" as it were, and departing from the faith, rejecting Him. The same point is made with, "His woman and his best friend, in bed and having fun." It's a reference to the church, i.e. His spiritual bride, committing adultery with Lucifer, depicted here as once being God's "best friend." Yet Satan is nevertheless still supposedly the victim, crawling on his hands and knees because he's fearful of God's wrath, and His sadistic jealousy.

He hears the silence howling, catches angels as they fall
And the all-time winner, has got him by the b*lls
Oh, he picks up Gideons Bible, open at page one
"I think God He stole the handle, and the train it won't stop going, no way to slow down"

Again depicts Satan sympathetically as having been cast out of Heaven, yet compassionately catching the other angels as they fall out of Heaven with him. Yet through time, Satan is now not only guilty of leading a rebellion of angels but leading the church into spiritual adultery as well, so he is now even more subject to judgment. So he reads "page one" of Gideon's Bible, which is the Genesis account and describes the fall of man and the coming judgment of the serpent. And since that judgment has been postponed indefinitely, Satan comes to the conclusion that God apparently wants these things to continue indefinitely, so he is now continuing to do evil in the earth because he feels this is what God's "will" apparently is.

As an apologist, what would your answer to such an argument be?

Btw, it's likely no coincidence that this band was led by flute player, seemingly in emulation of the pagan god Pan, whom many have equated with Satan down through later centuries.

 

[T. E. Smith]

Putting off justice is a very serious thing. We were all reminded of this with the cops in Uvalde who did nothing. We can be reminded of this with the Tony Timpa case, which happened in 2016 and for which the cops have not been punished. It is one of the strongest arguments against the justice of God, in my opinion.

 

[Hidden In Him]

Putting off justice is a very serious thing. We were all reminded of this with the cops in Uvalde who did nothing. We can be reminded of this with the Tony Timpa case, which happened in 2016 and for which the cops have not been punished. It is one of the strongest arguments against the justice of God, in my opinion.

Succinctly put, and thanks for responding.

We certainly agree on your opening statement, but equating the rest of it with how God operates is supposition, IMO. There is an abundance of evidence from scripture that God often does not put off justice but acts immediately to protect His own from harm, and what needs to be kept in mind is that while Satan has not been brought to judgment yet, he in no way has free reign to simply do as he pleases. Satan would have killed off the human race completely if he could have a long, long time ago, but he and his demons have been prevented from doing so, and it is why humanity now numbers 8,000,000,000 people today.

In reality, there is a protection afforded to those who become members of His kingdom, and a hedge is placed around them so no harm comes to them. God even protects those who refuse to become members of His kingdom, though not to the same extent, similar to how the United States has protected the people of many foreign states from being overthrown, only if they do not have US citizenship they do not have the full protections promised under the constitution. And unlike with the United States, these protections are not flawed, as is sometimes the case with instances like you brought up.

Let me go ahead and give the rest of my answer now of what I think is the proper response to the OP, since it builds on this. God's kingdom in the earth has been at war with Satan's kingdom for the last 6,000 years now, but that war is coming to an end soon, and Satan will be put down. Christ Jesus will reign over the earth for a thousand years, and the earth will be returned to Paradise as it was before Satan and his angels corrupted it. I have no reason to doubt this because I already experience the Peace of God in my life. Were I still a non-Christian as I was for the first 21 years of my life, I would still be walking in anxieties and fears, worrying about things like income and relationships, yet because I walk with God and His Spirit has been poured out upon me, I am anxious over nothing whatsoever, and this is true of my life day after day, week after week, month after month, and year after year. Why should I doubt that the same Spirit that has brought complete Peace to me when I had none not bring even more Peace to the entire planet when His kingdom is finally established on earth?

So as for those who are enemies of His kingdom, yes. They have reasons to fear Him. But those who are not His enemies but His friends have nothing to fear, and He has been postponing judgment on His enemies all this time in hopes that more might come to repentance, and be delivered from the bondage and pain and subjugation of Satan's kingdom into the Freedom and Peace and Joy of His.

I suppose that sums up what would be my initial response to the question posed by the OP.

What say you? And thanks again for responding. You seem to have a pretty decent head on your shoulders, which I appreciate.
- H

 

[for_his_glory]

Timothy 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
1Timothy 4:2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;

This verse came to mind when I read the OP. I remember back in the 70's when backmasking was a big thing. Especially doing this with Black Sabbath songs as you could literally hear the Satanic words being spoken.

From the time of Adams fall many have come to God, but only to be seduced by the false doctrines that Satan loves to teach as the spirit of Jezebel runs rampant in many churches today. The only reason God could never destroy Satan was because a spirit can not die, but reserved in judgement. Satan knows his end and wants to take as many as he can with him to the lake of fire. In Revelation Chapters 2-3 we read the messages to the seven churches in Asia that also represents todays churches. Instruction is given in God's righteousness, but His word is no longer acceptable in a politically correct church.

Here is God's greatest warning found in Rev 22:18-19 given to those who allow themselves to be seduced and believe the lies of the devil. First there must be a great falling away before Christ returns and we need to stand steadfast in all His truths.

Rev 22:18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
Rev 22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

 

[Hidden In Him]

This verse came to mind when I read the OP. I remember back in the 70's when backmasking was a big thing. Especially doing this with Black Sabbath songs as you could literally hear the Satanic words being spoken.

I remember Led Zeppelin and the Beatles doing it, but I never knew Black Sabbath did, so that's interest ing. I know it was a technique originated by Aleister Crowley as a form of occult magick, so that's why I think so many were employing it back then.

1 Timothy 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

Yeah. I would say so. The 1st and 2nd Timothy letters were written around the same period as Jude and 2nd Peter were, when Gnosticism was starting to increase in the earth, and Gnosticism is slowly making a come back again now. It's really just a Christianized version of Satanism in many ways, which is what makes it especially dangerous. The naive don't realize that not everyone who calls themself a "Christian" actually is.

 

[T. E. Smith]

I remember Led Zeppelin and the Beatles doing it, but I never knew Black Sabbath did, so that's interest ing. I know it was a technique originated by Aleister Crowley as a form of occult magick, so that's why I think so many were employing it back then.


Yeah. I would say so. The 1st and 2nd Timothy letters were written around the same period as Jude and 2nd Peter were, when Gnosticism was starting to increase in the earth, and Gnosticism is slowly making a come back again now. It's really just a Christianized version of Satanism in many ways, which is what makes it especially dangerous. The naive don't realize that not everyone who calls themself a "Christian" actually is.

You are comparing Gnosticism and Satanism. Where is the comparison? They are totally different. For example, gnosticism teaches that the spiritual world is all that is good and that the material world is evil. On the other hand, Satanism is materialistic and denies the supernatural. They are totally different.

 

[daninthelionsden]

The one thing about God, is that He is God and will act/react in His time, in His way. On an individual scale, I've seen God act/warn about impending justice. I notice that, on the grand scale, He has a plan working its way through to completion. Christ countered Satan with scripture and/or directly commanded him. I think we are to do the same when we know it is God's timing and to patiently wait when we are unsure of His will or timing thereof. He said He will let the good/evil grow up together because it causes us some kind of harm otherwise. I am told I possess my soul in my patience, therefore I wait. I've spent enormous chunks of my life waiting. But, wait I will upon my Lord. My justice is most certainly not holy or pure, but I know His is. I trust His way more than my own. I think I blabbered my way away from the OP.......

 

[Hidden In Him]

On the other hand, Satanism is materialistic and denies the supernatural.

LoL. I don't mean to poke fun, T.E., but you are once again presuming that that non-theistic Satanism is the only form it has ever taken, and nothing could be farther from the truth.

No offense, but if you wish me to take you seriously, you're gonna have to come off of statements like the one above.

 

[T. E. Smith]

LoL. I don't mean to poke fun, T.E., but you are once again presuming that that non-theistic Satanism is the only form it has ever taken, and nothing could be farther from the truth.

No offense, but if you wish me to take you seriously, you're gonna have to come off of statements like the one above.

Of course there are always strange people, but I'm talking about mainstream, and not the evidence-free fabrications that are the "memoirs" you've quoted from. Besides, you still need to explain the link between theistic Satanism and gnosticism. In gnosticism, Satan is still the enemy. Do you realize that?

 

[Hidden In Him]

Of course there are always strange people, but I'm talking about mainstream, and not the evidence-free fabrications that are the "memoirs" you've quoted from. Besides, you still need to explain the link between theistic Satanism and gnosticism. In gnosticism, Satan is still the enemy.

Still on the "memoirs" thing?

Gnosticism and Satanism aren't subjects I'm much into discussing these days, so like the thread I was going to create, I'm afraid that's just going to have to wait for now. And I think you'd be deriding many of my comments anyway, so I'm guessing you'd likely enjoy discussing things more with someone who was more philosophically-oriented. I never have been and never will be.

God bless,
- H

 

[Hidden In Him]

ourse there are always strange people, but I'm talking about mainstream, and not the evidence-free fabrications that are the "memoirs" you've quoted from. Besides, you still need to explain the link between theistic Satanism and gnosticism. In gnosticism, Satan is still the enemy. Do you realize that?

And btw, I do realize that I brought the subject up, so my apologies. Just a lot more things going on these days. I posted this one just because it was something I was finding interesting at the time.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

God has been accused of evil since the Garden of Eden. Satan is not only the accuser of the brethren but also God’s accuser.

I think it only makes sense to defend the character to individuals wanting to understand how God can be good against these kinds of accusations. Jesus was silent before his accusers and so must we be at times.

But there are also times to speak. Now the accusation that God is cruel can be based on christian theology that accepts and teaches that he is cruel.

A prime example is the theology that teaches God chooses some for Heaven or Hell before they were born regardless of what they do. This is unbelievable cruelty and yet christians blithely teach it emphasizing that some (themselves always included) are going to Heaven so it’s ok. The defense of God’s character is by opposing openly this teaching and for that reason, that he isn’t so cruel as to do that.

Come to think about it, most of the points where we should defend accusations against his character ARE going to be in theological positions. There are some accusations that the church herself has spawned from outside appearances.

 

[T. E. Smith]

Still on the "memoirs" thing?

Gnosticism and Satanism aren't subjects I'm much into discussing these days, so like the thread I was going to create, I'm afraid that's just going to have to wait for now. And I think you'd be deriding many of my comments anyway, so I'm guessing you'd likely enjoy discussing things more with someone who was more philosophically-oriented. I never have been and never will be.

God bless,
- H

He Came to Set the Captives Free is a memoir. However, if you don't want to discuss, so be it.

 

[Hidden In Him]

He Came to Set the Captives Free is a memoir. However, if you don't want to discuss, so be it.

Testimony, not memoir, but I think this is also why with everything I have going on I have to confess that there's not much interest. I realize you are still trying to share your view, but it's repetition and going around in circles most of the time. That's never edifying for anyone, and while I mean no disrespect it bores me.

 

[T. E. Smith]

Testimony, not memoir, but I think this is also why with everything I have going on I have to confess that there's not much interest. I realize you are still trying to share your view, but it's repetition and going around in circles most of the time. That's never edifying for anyone, and while I mean no disrespect it bores me.

That's ok, if you want to bring up a topic and then immediately shut it down because you've decided it "bores" you, then you have that freedom.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

He Came to Set the Captives Free is a memoir. However, if you don't want to discuss, so be it.

Why do you think that’s only a memoir?

 

[Hidden In Him]

That's ok, if you want to bring up a topic and then immediately shut it down because you've decided it "bores" you, then you have that freedom.

I inevitably return to things, but what I'm telling you is no exaggeration. I bore incredibly easy unfortunately. Just the way I'm built.

 

[T. E. Smith]

Why do you think that’s only a memoir?

What's wrong with a memoir? Why do you think it's more than that?

 

[Dorothy Mae]

What's wrong with a memoir? Why do you think it's more than that?

A memoir is a remembrance of the past. That’s a still living promise. You still didn’t answer WHY you think it is that.

 

[T. E. Smith]

A memoir is a remembrance of the past. That’s a still living promise. You still didn’t answer WHY you think it is that.

The book I mentioned was a recounting of the author's supposed experiences with theistic satanism. Thus, it is a recounting of past events, and so a memoir. Why are you getting hung up on the term?