[_ Old Earth _] any christians here believe in astronomy?

[DeusVult]

The Bible teaches that God created the earth about 6,000 years ago. I trust that He is telling the truth.

Man teaches that God created the Earth about 6000 years ago. God teaches us that the Earth was created much longer ago. The interpretations of the Bible by man are falliable. We should instead look to God's own creation and see what it tells us. As far as we can tell, God's universe is showing us that it is much older than six thousand years old.

No, the Bible teaches that God created the earth, and then a bunch of stuff happened, and hey, here we are today. The idea that it's 6000 years old is based on man's own guesses and calculations, picking and choosing arbitrarily which things should be literal and which things should be metaphorical. And the best means of refuting all of the physical evidence that points to an old earth is to decide that God changed the rules somewhere along the way, even though the Bible never so much as alludes to this fact.

More specifically, that figure is based on the Ussher calendar which was made by studying the various lineages in the Bible. There is an unbroken lineage from Adam to Soloman and then there are a lot of gaps. Ussher made a lot of assumptions and came to the conclusion that 4000 BC was the beginning of the world. This, of course, is assuming that one day in Genesis refers to one actual day and not some span of time that is more appropriate for God.

As I said, I don't think God would lie to us as such, and I find the implication that he would to be extremely disrespectful, and nigh-blasphemous.

God would not lie to us. Lies are the domain of Satan. And it isn't nigh-blasphemous to make such a statement; it is blasphemous to claim that All-Good God would behave as Satan does.

 

[dad]

...The Bible doesn't say, and anything we guess is simply an uneducated assumption.

Not if we look at the evidence as well. It seems they think they know the aprox rate of expansion, and likely could tell if it changed, or physical light speed changed. This doesn't affect the idea of a merged past, but it does affect your ideas, which I think oppose the evidence.

[quote:ae667]
Yes, but the main goal of the Bible is not to teach us about science, but about God.

But it does tell of our orgins in detail, even Jesus refered to the time of Adam, and to the flood, it must be important, especially in this end time where men have left off sound doctrine, and reason.

The Bible doesn't say how God planted a garden, but think for a second about when the Bible says God created the stars.

There are enough stars that we know about right now that every person on earth can own several trillion stars to ourselves.

They are placed in an exact spot and God knows the name of each star.

Ok, sounds like He is a smart Guy. Why would He dig hundreds of thousands of big holes, to stuff huge trees with long roots in?

And to say that God would have to "[dig] up 200 foot deep and wide holes" is putting a huge limitation on God.

Do you really think that God used a shovel? :

[/quote:ae667]
Yes. I think He really planted the garden. It took all day almost. Imagine how long digging huge holes in the ground would take!

 

[dad]

...
You claim that God made the universe in such a way that it's very young, yet it looks and behaves as if it were very old, such that any observations of it imply great age. This is deceitful.

Oh good, you're the guy who said my posts were shameful or something of that nature. Good to see you don't know what you are talking about!
The only thing that appears old is in the heads of those who insist on imagining a physical only world in the past. If it was a different universe to a large extend no such old age perception problems can exist.

 

[ArtGuy]

Oh good, you're the guy who said my posts were shameful or something of that nature. Good to see you don't know what you are talking about!
The only thing that appears old is in the heads of those who insist on imagining a physical only world in the past. If it was a different universe to a large extend no such old age perception problems can exist.

Very well. Please tell me the error in the following argument:

1) Parallax can be used to determine the distance to stars within 100 lightyears of us, more or less. This is calculated by observing the apparent shift in the sky of different stars at different times of the year, and requires only that we know the radius of the Earth's orbit around the sun.

2) There exist stars known as Cepheid variables. These are stars that change their brightnesses regularly. We have observed many, many such stars that are relatively close to us, and it turns out that there is a very precise relationship between the period of oscillation in their brightness, and their maximum brightness. By measuring the period of oscillation, we can thus determine with great accuracy the absolute brightness, as compared to our own sun.

3) If you know the absolute brightness of a star, you can use its apparent brightness - that is, how bright it appears to us, taking its distance into account - to determine how far away it is. We have used this means to determine that distance to many nearby stars, such that we have corroborated these measurements with those determine by the parallax method. This method is thus very reliable.

4) Light travels at a constant speed, as verified repeatedly through experiment.

5) Using the Cepheid variable method for determining distance, we have discovered many stars that are a whole lot farther away than 6000 lightyears. Since we know light travels at a constant speed, we know that this light must have started travelling towards us a lot longer than 6000 years ago.

6) Thus, based on all empirical scientfic evidence, and completely ignoring things like radiometric dating, it is safe to say that, whatever the reality, the universe seems to be much older than 6000 years.


Now, you can hypothesize all you want about magical light particles that used to travel infinitely fast, and "spiritual light", and whatnot, and perhaps you can even convince yourself that such things make sense. What you cannot do, though, is state with a straight face that the universe does not appear to be very, very old based on everything that science tells us.

 

[Khristeeanos]

There are so many scientists who believe the evidence points toward a young earth; one that harmonizes the Biblical view.

As for the proof, look up my thread entitled "Why I am a YEC."

 

[SyntaxVorlon]

I roll my eyes and bite my thumb at your logic.

I chuckle that science does not support the mother of all old age premises, the physical only past.

Funny that you say this again and again and refuse to actually post any of this evidence.

 

[dad]

5) Using the Cepheid variable method for determining distance, we have discovered many stars that are a whole lot farther away than 6000 lightyears. Since we know light travels at a constant speed, we know that this light must have started travelling towards us a lot longer than 6000 years ago.

Ah, I see where you're coming from. But the answer is simple! The merged universe's spiritual light got here right away almost, it was not the present PO light! As the seperation happened, what was left in place after the former light was no more was our light. Still coming in, but at the only speed we could expect PO light, in a physcal only universe to come in! We certainly cannot use the speed of light in the pitiful PO universe now as any indication of what light will be like in the coming merged universe. (or the past one)


[quote:11f5c]Now, you can hypothesize all you want about magical light particles that used to travel infinitely fast, and "spiritual light", and whatnot, and perhaps you can even convince yourself that such things make sense. What you cannot do, though, is state with a straight face that the universe does not appear to be very, very old based on everything that science tells us

[/quote:11f5c]
Of course I can! It is elementary. The only way present physical only universe properties could apply to the future, or past, is if they too were PO!!! This is not the case, and no science in any way will indicate now, or ever, that it was! That, you see, is where it is only belief and assumption, and imagination that says a thing about the past. Do not pretend, ot think any science whatsoever says the past was PO. No, no, no, in no way! Only your beliefs tell you that. Mine tell me it was a different past, and will be a different future.

 

[dad]

....

 

[ArtGuy]

Of course I can! It is elementary. The only way present physical only universe properties could apply to the future, or past, is if they too were PO!!! This is not the case, and no science in any way will indicate now, or ever, that it was! That, you see, is where it is only belief and assumption, and imagination that says a thing about the past. Do not pretend, ot think any science whatsoever says the past was PO. No, no, no, in no way! Only your beliefs tell you that. Mine tell me it was a different past, and will be a different future.

But it's just as true that the Bible says nothing, nada, zilch to support your idea that God created this "spiritual light" that didn't obey the same laws of physics as your "physical only" light. That's just something you made up to try to reconcile your own interpretation of the Bible with the scientific evidence we see all around us.

I could just as well say that the Earth is clearly ancient because the Great Pink Platypus is over 6 billion years old. How do I know this? Why, he told me so, and he said he was speaking for Jesus, so I'm sure he's telling the truth. What? No, of course you can't see him. He's invisible, and is also impervious to all attempts to detect him by any means. He only chooses to communicate with those he deems worthy. Clearly you aren't worthy, or you'd know of his existence. Oh, you want Biblical support? Well, I think that the word "heaven" in hebrew was actually referring to the platypus. Scholarly support for this view? Well, there is none of course, but that doesn't make it any less true.

The Bible is not something that we can just manipulate and interpret according to our whims. You can't just make up "spiritual light" and then speak of it as if it has both Biblical and scientific validity. It has neither. I challenge you to find me one reference by any reputable source that talks about this magical light of yours.

 

[Vic C.]

*backs up to the beginning of the thread at the speed of light... electricity actually*

... What if there exist something faster than light that it can cover 15 billion light year distance in mere minutes?...

Oh, you mean like, tachyons? 8-)

 

[dad]

....

 

[dad]

....

 

[dad]

...

 

[dad]

.....

 

[dad]

.....

 

[dad]

....

 

[dad]

....

 

[dad]

.....

 

[dad]

....

 

[dad]

....