Apostate Verses Believer

[netchaplain]

For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
Romans 11:28-30

Why would they who were "broken off" through unbelief, need to still be called to salvation if salvation were "irrevocable"?

Israelites (most) believe in God but not in Christ (Jhn 14:1) and I believe God will be bringing the final surviving Israelites in during the Millennium. Because they will not believe until they see Jesus, it will not be the same blessing (Jhn 20:29) as those who believe before He returns (Christians).

Also, I believe "broken off" is in reference to their fellowship with God (which prevents them from entering the Gospel Church or Body of Christ), not their union, for the Abrahamic promises (inherit the earth, sins forgiven, Spirit put in them, etc.) still need to be met during Christ's return (11:26).

Salvation nor eternal life are mentioned in Romans 11:29,

I see only salvation in view in v 29, due to vs 28 and 30.

 

[JLB]

Also, I believe "broken off" is in reference to their fellowship with God

The were removed from the tree, whose root supports them.

This represents covenant relationship.

The Abrahamic Covenant.


JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
Romans 11:28-30

Why would they who were "broken off" through unbelief, need to still be called to salvation if salvation were "irrevocable"?

Salvation nor eternal life are mentioned in Romans 11:29, however the calling to salvation which is actually mentioned is without repentance.JLB

Neither salvation, justification, nor eternal life need to be mentioned in Rom 11:29, because Paul had already defined them as God's gifts previously in Romans. Context determines the meaning of words.

And your question demonstrates a misunderstanding of the passage about being broken off. Paul wasn't speaking of Jews who had previously believed, but Jews who hadn't ever believed.

But it really doesn't matter what reasonable and rational explanation is given for any verse that is being misunderstood, because of the strong unbelief that eternal security is a fact of Scripture.

Jesus said those who have believed HAVE eternal life and WILL NOT come into condemnation in John 5:24 and that God holds the one who has believed in His hand in 10:28,29.

Those who have believed ARE secure, even when they don't know it.

 

[FreeGrace]

Sin "is" of the devil. Not was.

I've given Scripture for where sin comes from. Yes, sin is of the devil, and sin is also from our own hearts.

Christians still sin and "our" sin is likewise, of the devil. 1 John 3:8

I am soooo tired of this rant. If this is true, then who is responsible for your own sin? Please answer directly and clearly.

Paul didn't hold himself out as some "exception" to this rule.

First, you've proven no rule about this "messenger of Satan" business. That was specific to him and him alone, for the reason that he clearly gave. It does NOT apply to anyone else, unless someone else experienced what Paul did by going to the 3rd heaven.

Nor did John the Apostle who likewise said if we say we have no sin the truth is not in us. 1 John 1:8.

Of course all humans sin. That's what Rom 3-7 is all about.

We are forgiven. The devil isn't.

Humans are forgiven in 2 ways; believing in Christ results in forgiveness (Acts 10:43). This is forensic justification. Then, when believers sin, and they confess their sins, they are forgiven and cleansed from those sins, per 1 Jn 1:9.

The devil has already been judged and will spend eternity in the lake of fire. He isn't even in the picture regarding eternal security. I have NO IDEA why you keep bringing him up.

I understand you may not care for the "universal quotient" that all mankind is under sin in the flesh and such sin is demonic.

Of course all mankind is under sin. Rom 3:9-23.

Paul didn't justify the messenger of Satan in his flesh, his evil actions, his evil thoughts.

Because there is no reason to. Who, btw, does this justifying this 'messenger of the flesh'? Again, Paul was buffeted by this messenger to keep him humble because of the "exceeding great revelations" that he saw and heard.

This issue of the "messenger of Satan" is totally irrevelant to eternal security.

I have no issues with OSAS, and believe it's fully true for all believers.

Well, then we can agree here and end the discussion.

I don't accept that is "all" that believers consist of however.

This is where your view gets totally off the track and the failure to communicate why any of that is important or has any imfluence on eternal security. It simply doesn't.

 

[JLB]

Neither salvation, justification, nor eternal life need to be mentioned in Rom 11:29, because Paul had already defined them as God's gifts previously in Romans. Context determines the meaning of words.

Paul defined gifts in Romans 1:11.

11 For I long to see you, that I may impart to you some spiritual gift, so that you may be established—

The gifts and calling are without repentance had zero to do with God "taking back" anything, as you have been shown.

The meaning of that word has nothing to do with taking anything back or not.

Nor does that verse mention eternal life, but the calling to covenant relationship, of which all covenants have laws and stipulations that are required.

JLB

 

[Drew]

Such a debate point, OSAS is completely worthless, when there are two opposite fates that will come upon every believer-messenger of Satan in the flesh.

OK, after long confusion, I am finally "getting" (I think) your theology. And one reason your theology is hard to get is that, frankly, it is, I believe, a view that very few people indeed hold. I suspect others, likewise, might not understand your position largely because it is such an unusual one. Having a view that is unusual does not make your view wrong of course.

You appear to believe that each person is in a sense "split in two": There is a "flesh-part" (and I mean this in the "sin-nature" sense, not the "made of physical stuff" sense) and there is a "spirit-part" (again, I means this in the "new-creation" sense, not in the "non-physical" sense).

And you see the "flesh-part" destined for ultimate loss, and the "new-creation part" destined for salvation.

I do not think this position is Biblically correct, but I thought I would put this out there both to see if you agree that I am characterizing you correctly and to perhaps help others understand your very unconventional theology of the nature of the human person.

Of course, none of this explains your refusal to answer my clear question to you in the other thread about what Paul means by this:

6God “will repay each person according to what they have done.”7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. 8But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. [Romans 2:6-8, NIV]

I politely suggest that your view cannot work with this text. Yes, you can claim that verse 8 describes the ultimate loss of the "satan-part" of the person. But you have an impossible challenge with verses 6-7 which clearly state that whatever "part" of the human person gets salvation, that salvation is based on how we have lived - our good works.

And your position that salvation is not based on good works does not accommodate this. So, naturally enough, when pressed to offer an account of this text from Romans 2, you are in a very difficult position indeed. Hence you dance. That is your right, of course.

 

[smaller]

I've given Scripture for where sin comes from. Yes, sin is of the devil, and sin is also from our own hearts.

The devil is made to resist everything of and about God in Christ.

I am soooo tired of this rant. If this is true, then who is responsible for your own sin? Please answer directly and clearly.

No person makes the devil(s) do anything other than what they are made, even forced by "their" nature to do/perform. No one makes the devil not sin. No amount of personal responsibilities can change the scriptural quotients. Devils resist the things of God and they sin.

First, you've proven no rule about this "messenger of Satan" business. That was specific to him and him alone,

If 1 John 3:8 is true, then the devil remains linked to every sin. And not particular just to Paul, but to all who sin, and all sin.

for the reason that he clearly gave. It does NOT apply to anyone else, unless someone else experienced what Paul did by going to the 3rd heaven.

I understand the efforts to deny that believers sins are connected, directly, to the tempter. But Paul shows quite clearly that sin indwelling his own flesh reacted adversely to the law of God, causing every manner of concupiscence to transpire within him. Romans 7:7-13 There is zero reason to see this matter as something particular only to Paul, seeing that the conclusions of scripture is that all are under sin. Gal. 3:22 If that was the case for Paul in his intimate and truthful disclosures, then it is likewise true for all sinners.

Of course all humans sin. That's what Rom 3-7 is all about.

Indeed. We can view it no other way. What Paul shows for himself, he shows for all. If evil was present with Paul, which it was, Romans 7:21, then it again is true for all.

Are we going to save "evil present" "indwelling sin" "lusts in mind" and temptations in mind are OSAS? Uh, no. That would be a ridiculous claim, and it is a ridiculous claim. There is a rightful division of the parties that must apply.

Humans are forgiven in 2 ways; believing in Christ results in forgiveness (Acts 10:43). This is forensic justification. Then, when believers sin, and they confess their sins, they are forgiven and cleansed from those sins, per 1 Jn 1:9.

Believers are forgiven. Satan and his messengers never will be forgiven. Grace has not blessed by forgiveness any persons sins. They are excused from the damnation that will come upon the adversaries. But none are released from the battle that transpires in the flesh with it's attendant lusts courtesy of the opposition parties.

The devil has already been judged and will spend eternity in the lake of fire.

That final fate will transpire at a certain point, yes.

He isn't even in the picture regarding eternal security. I have NO IDEA why you keep bringing him up.

It is to show that no person in the flesh can smear their entirety with OSAS because it does not extend to the flesh in which temptations transpire, same being of the tempter within to make temptations and lusts. OSAS can't go to that point with any believer.

There are two separate fates being fulfilled, which are opposite and opposing. OSAS is half a loaf. I might even say, a half baked notion that does not and can not address the indwelling sin/evil present, of the tempter, in all flesh.

 

[smaller]

OK, after long confusion, I am finally "getting" (I think) your theology. And one reason your theology is hard to get is that, frankly, it is, I believe, a view that very few people indeed hold. I suspect others, likewise, might not understand your position largely because it is such an unusual one. Having a view that is unusual does not make your view wrong of course.

You appear to believe that each person is in a sense "split in two": There is a "flesh-part" (and I mean this in the "sin-nature" sense, not the "made of physical stuff" sense) and there is a "spirit-part" (again, I means this in the "new-creation" sense, not in the "non-physical" sense).

Well well. It appears a sliver of scriptual light may actually spring up in this long standing conversation. And no, it is not "my" theology, but a direct disclosure and discourse from the scriptures.

Sin indwells the flesh, and is Satanic in nature and origin. It is that simple. Romans 7:17-21, 1 John 3:8, Gal. 3:22 and many many more including all the seed parables, particularly Mark 4:15.

And this factual conclusion will bring some interesting sights to the table.

The tempter is never legal, can not be legal, can not be obedient, can not love, is not under Grace, is not provided Divine Mercy, etc etc.

And you see the "flesh-part" destined for ultimate loss, and the "new-creation part" destined for salvation.

A new body that is not subject to the conditions that we "all" have presently is on the table of Divine Promise, yes. Phil. 3:21. In the meantime we should consider the present body for what it is, as described by Paul in 1 Cor. 15:43-49. That the "Ressurection Seed" of faith is in fact planted in "weakness" "corruption" and "dishonor" in a natural body, doomed to fail by death, because it contains indwelling sin.

I do not think this position is Biblically correct, but I thought I would put this out there both to see if you agree that I am characterizing you correctly and to perhaps help others understand your very unconventional theology of the nature of the human person.

It is spot on taken from the scriptures. Nothing I "invented." But there is going to be a great difficulty for any believer to come to grips with this matter, because the tempter in their own heads will automatically resist these disclosures. The struggle is internal and the conclusion is distasteful to the inherent pride within the flesh, courtesy of the "holder" of the flesh man, the tempter.

Of course, none of this explains your refusal to answer my clear question to you in the other thread about what Paul means by this:

6God “will repay each person according to what they have done.”7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. 8But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. [Romans 2:6-8, NIV]

We've covered this matter at quite some length. There will be two judgments to two different parties.

Paul lays this same matter out, precisely, in Romans 9:18-24, showing that the vessel of dishonor in "me" is meant for wrath and eternal destruction. And the vessel of honor, who is bound in the flesh with the other vessel, shall know Divine Mercy from this present experience we call life, in this binding.

 

[Drew]

I think that using Romans 11:29 to defend OSAS is a real stretch and also heavily ironic precisely because it appears in a treatment where the possibility of falling away is rather clear affirmed (I will that to my next post, though). Here is the text:

29for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. [Romans 11:29, NASB]

The broader argument in which this text is embedded is this: Paul is warning the Gentile Christians to not look down on Jewish non-believers (the branches that have broken off). Paul is arguing that God is not going to give up on Israel, including the possible salvation of non-believing Jews. This is what Paul means by the irrevocability of God's gift - God promised to bless Israel and, despite widespread rejection of Jesus (whom Paul believes to be their Messiah) God is not going to throw in the towel on Israel. So, it takes a real leap to get from here to the broader claim that since the salvation of each individual person (Jew or Gentile) is a "gift", God can never revoke that gift. That line of reasoning is like this, obviously flawed argument:

1. All good things are gifts given to us from God: Every good thing given and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shifting shadow [James 1:17, NASB]

2. My high-paying, satisfying, and important job with company X is a good thing, and therefore, following James 1:17, a gift from above;

3. Therefore, by Romans 11:29, it is not possible that I lose this job since God's gifts are irrevocable.

And almost no one would buy this reasoning. But it strikes me as essentially the same line of argument that one uses to assert that Romans 11:29 tells us that salvation cannot be lost.

 

[JLB]

The devil is made to resist everything of and about God in Christ.

Who is making the devil resist?

Who placed iniquity in the heart of the anointed cherub?

"You were the anointed cherub who covers; I established you; You were on the holy mountain of God; You walked back and forth in the midst of fiery stones. You were perfect in your ways from the day you were created, Till iniquity was found in you. Ezekiel 14:15-15

JLB

 

[Drew]

To use Romans 11:29 to defend OSAS creates a huge problem - in the course of the very same argument containing this text, Paul clearly tells the Gentile believers (and, by context, it is clear that it is the Gentile believer that Paul is addressing) that they can indeed be lost:

But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree, 18do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you. 19You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in." 20Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. 22Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God's kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. [Romans 11:17-22, NASB]

Now, FreeGrace, please tell us what you think Paul is arguing here, and especially what do you think Paul means in verse 22 about the Gentile believer being "cut off".

 

[Drew]

It is spot on taken from the scriptures. Nothing I "invented." But there is going to be a great difficulty for any believer to come to grips with this matter, because the tempter in their own heads will automatically resist these disclosures. The struggle is internal and the conclusion is distasteful to the inherent pride within the flesh, courtesy of the "holder" of the flesh man, the tempter.

A suspiciously convenient argument for you to make. You are essentially claiming that those who disagree with you do so because we are being misled by dark inner forces. Anyone could use that argument to support any position.

 

[Drew]

We've covered this matter at quite some length. There will be two judgments to two different parties

The problem you have is that Romans 2:6-7 says that eternal life is granted according to "persisting in doing good".

6God “will repay each person according to what they have done.”7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. [Romans 2:6-7, NIV]

....and you repeatedly evade when asked to clearly state whether you agree with this statement by Paul. Saying there are two judgments does not tell us whether you agree with Paul on the nature of that judgment - the critierion used to award eternal life. We all know you believe the "believer" part of us get salvation. So why are not willing to simply affirm that we get this "according to what we have done"?

 

[smaller]

Who is making the devil resist?

Who placed iniquity in the heart of the anointed cherub?

God Himself made the devil to cover His children in this present life, in the flesh, and to resist the things of God. It is, for all intents and purposes, an "elemental" spirit babysitter of adversity, that is mean to expose us to negative matters. A piece of anti-God spiritual exercise equipment, if you will. We don't "bless" our evil conscience, we resist it with good and Godly ways. God does know however, the intricacies of the evil conscience of everyone, and yes, everyone has this internal problem to contend with, not bless. Heb. 5:14 Heb. 10:22

Anyone who says they are only a good conscience is openly exposed as deceived by failing to be honest about the evil portion of our conscience. It was God who has made us so, in the flesh, both good and evil. And yes, there is "choice" involved, and that choice can and does swing both directions. The evil will always resist the good and vice versa.

"You were the anointed cherub who covers; I established you; You were on the holy mountain of God; You walked back and forth in the midst of fiery stones. You were perfect in your ways from the day you were created, Till iniquity was found in you. Ezekiel 14:15-15

JLB

There are many disclosures and discourses about the evil side of the equations in the O.T. Much of it buried, intentionally, under mountains of allegories. Pharaoh in Egypt of the flesh for example, and the people of Israel being led there by God, growing, then separating from Egypt is actually a physical picture of Phil. 3: 21.

The real Pharaoh is disclosed later, by Ezekiel, here:

Ezekiel 29:3
Speak, and say, Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I am against thee, Pharaoh king of Egypt, the great dragon that lieth in the midst of his rivers, which hath said, My river is mine own, and I have made it for myself.

And it is the heart of this dragon, that God Hardens, by His Law(s) which this dragon always opposes. The message to Pharaoh, the Great Dragon, is thus: LET MY PEOPLE GO.

It is by The Law of God, that the dragon emerges from the sea of humanity, in their flesh, to show his presence. Romans 7:7-13. And no, he will NOT let go, until, like the pharaoh of the flesh, he pursues the children unto his own death and that of all his armies.

 

[smaller]

A suspiciously convenient argument for you to make. You are essentially claiming that those who disagree with you do so because we are being misled by dark inner forces. Anyone could use that argument to support any position.

No, I'll just make it personal. I have sin indwelling my own flesh, and this indwelling sin is of the devil, the tempter, just as it was for Paul in Romans 7:7-13, Romans 7:17-21, 2 Cor. 12:7, 1 Tim. 1:15, 2 Tim. 2:20-21.

The last thing in the world I would ever consider is to ask God in Christ to bless that operation, the operator, the tempter, or any of it's/his workings.

I look up for my final change and division, knowing He Will Deliver, and the basis for my need of His Power to change this vile body, and His Attendant Divine Mercy, because of my factual scriptural conditions, which I would have had no clue of, save for the disclosures of Paul, the Apostle. I thank God for that one, honest man.

 

[smaller]

The problem you have is that Romans 2:6-7 says that eternal life is granted according to "persisting in doing good".

6God “will repay each person according to what they have done.”7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. [Romans 2:6-7, NIV]

....and you repeatedly evade when asked to clearly state whether you agree with this statement by Paul.

I've said repeatedly I believe exactly that will happen. Where you and I depart sights is on the next leg of that discourse from Paul, which you drop:


8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

And showed, that Paul himself did do evil in Romans 7:19 and did things he hated, in Romans 7:15.

If we look at Paul's description of himself in 2 Cor. 12:7, we see exactly how the chips will fall on this matter on "both sides" of the ledgers.

Paul did not hesitate to conclude his factual condition in the flesh as the chief of sinners, post salvation, in 1 Tim. 1:15, because he sought the final division, via resurrection and shows that he sought that by recognizing his need for that final division.

 

[JLB]

God Himself made the devil to cover His children in this present life, in the flesh, and to resist the things of God.

Blasphemy!

 

[smaller]

Blasphemy!

The devil did not create himself. A belief that anything created itself is in fact polytheism. Isaiah 45:7

 

[Drew]

I've said repeatedly I believe exactly that will happen. Where you and I depart sights is on the next leg of that discourse from Paul, which you drop:


8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

And showed, that Paul himself did do evil in Romans 7:19 and did things he hated, in Romans 7:15.

If we look at Paul's description of himself in 2 Cor. 12:7, we see exactly how the chips will fall on this matter on "both sides" of the ledgers.

Paul did not hesitate to conclude his factual condition in the flesh as the chief of sinners, post salvation, in 1 Tim. 1:15, because he sought the final division, via resurrection and shows that he sought that by recognizing his need for that final division.

You are, of course, still not answering the question. You appear to think that because of other arguments you put forwards, that you somehow are not obliged to give an account as to why Paul claims in Romans 2:6-7 that:

6God “will repay each person according to what they have done.”7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. [Romans 2:6-7, NIV]

You claim that 2 Cor 12:7 tells us how "chips will fall on both sides of the ledger". But that text most certainly does not speak to the matter that you simply refuse to deal with: the matter of the basis for the awarding of eternal life as described by Paul in Romans 2:6-7. Here is the 2 Cor 12:7 text:

7Because of the surpassing greatness of the revelations, for this reason, to keep me from exalting myself, there was given me a thorn in the flesh, a messenger of Satan to torment me-to keep me from exalting myself! [2 Cor 12:7, NASB]

Now tell us: exactly how does this text explain your refusal to simply and clearly affirm what Paul writes in Romans 2:6-7 about the awarding of eternal life based on "persistence in doing good"?

You continue to simply evade the challenge posed by the Romans 2;6-7 text. But you are certainly not alone in this respect.

 

[smaller]

You are, of course, still not answering the question. You appear to think that because of other arguments you put forwards, that you somehow are not obliged to give an account as to why Paul claims in Romans 2:6-7 that:

6God “will repay each person according to what they have done.”7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. [Romans 2:6-7, NIV]

You claim that 2 Cor 12:7 tells us how "chips will fall on both sides of the ledger". But that text most certainly does not speak to the matter that you simply refuse to deal with: the matter of the basis for the awarding of eternal life as described by Paul in Romans 2:6-7. Here is the 2 Cor 12:7 text:

7Because of the surpassing greatness of the revelations, for this reason, to keep me from exalting myself, there was given me a thorn in the flesh, a messenger of Satan to torment me-to keep me from exalting myself! [2 Cor 12:7, NASB]

Now tell us: exactly how does this text explain your refusal to simply and clearly affirm what Paul writes in Romans 2:6-7 about the awarding of eternal life based on "persistence in doing good"?

The good that Paul did was an extension of Christ in Him, and Paul awarded thusly, the reward of Christ operating in him.

Yet no matter what, the messenger of Satan in Paul's own flesh would benefit nothing, and would in fact have an opposite reward, that of eternal damnation. 2 Cor. 12:7 gives us an honest look at Paul, and what we should be easily able to see is that Paul was not just Paul. We see Paul exactly, in the identical way that Paul uses in Romans 9:18-24, and even as Paul sees blinded Israel in Romans 11:8, this, being a direct result of the truth of facts Jesus divulged in Mark 4:15 and the other seed parables.

It is virtually impossible to read the Gospels, and not see Jesus' engagements with invisible entities in man, showing this overlap and capture, in the flesh. It's on nearly every page.

It is there, that Jesus sets His Sights, and His Divisions. And on this division, this principle, Jesus establishes His Church. He sows His Words, Satan follows shortly, immediately thereafter, to resist in the flesh of man. Matt. 15:15-25. It is on this basis that a believer must deny themselves, knowing the way of the adversary is to resist, in their own flesh. This resistance is known by our own evil conscience. This same lesson is deployed again in Mark 8:29-38, identically.

The very foundation of the Gospel is to turn people from Satan's blinding sinning power over their own flesh/mind. Acts 26:18