Apostate Verses Believer

[JLB]

We don't "bless" our evil conscience, we resist it with good and Godly ways.

let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water. Hebrews 10:22

We don't have an evil conscience and a good conscience.

Our conscience, then only one we have, is to be purged by the cleansing blood of Jesus, because God has removed our sins.

20 But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and silver, but also of wood and clay, some for honor and some for dishonor.
21 Therefore if anyone cleanses himself from the latter, he will be a vessel for honor, sanctified and useful for the Master, prepared for every good work. 2 Timothy 2:20-21


Likewise, we don't "have" within us, a vessel of honor and a vessel of dishonor, but we "ourselves are "either" a vessel of honor or a vessel of dishonor, as we are told to "cleanse ourselves" from being a vessel of dishonor so that we will be a vessel of honor, that we may dwell in our Master's great house being fit for honorable work... as it says, "Let everyone who names the name of Christ depart from iniquity."

God desires for us to be a vessel of honor, sanctified and useful for the Master, prepared for every good work.


JLB

 

[Drew]

The good that Paul did was an extension of Christ in Him, and Paul awarded thusly, the reward of Christ operating in him.

OK, no problem. But did Paul get eternal life according to "persisting in doing good":

6God “will repay each person according to what they have done.”7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. [Romans 2:6-7, NIV]
Why do you keeping avoiding this simple question?

Yet no matter what, the messenger of Satan in Paul's own flesh would benefit nothing, and would in fact have an opposite reward, that of eternal damnation. 2 Cor. 12:7 gives us an honest look at Paul, and what we should be easily able to see is that Paul was not just Paul. We see Paul exactly, in the identical way that Paul uses in Romans 9:18-24, and even as Paul sees blinded Israel in Romans 11:8, this, being a direct result of the truth of facts Jesus divulged in Mark 4:15 and the other seed parables.

Again, this analysis of indwelling forces simply does not answer the question I am asking about the basis for the awarding of eternal life.

It is virtually impossible to read the Gospels, and not see Jesus' engagements with invisible entities in man, showing this overlap and capture, in the flesh. It's on nearly every page.

So what? How does this answer my question about the basis for the awarding of eternal life?

It is there, that Jesus sets His Sights, and His Divisions. And on this division, this principle, Jesus establishes His Church. He sows His Words, Satan follows shortly, immediately thereafter, to resist in the flesh of man. Matt. 15:15-25. It is on this basis that a believer must deny themselves, knowing the way of the adversary is to resist, in their own flesh. This resistance is known by our own evil conscience. This same lesson is deployed again in Mark 8:29-38, identically.

The very foundation of the Gospel is to turn people from Satan's blinding sinning power over their own flesh/mind. Acts 26:18

How does this answer my question about the basis for the awarding of eternal life?

 

[smaller]

OK, no problem. But did Paul get eternal life according to "persisting in doing good":

Christ in Paul moved Paul, and resisted the messenger of Satan in his own flesh, simultaneously. Any of us should be able to perceive that we continue to struggle against this same working in our own conscience.

6God “will repay each person according to what they have done.”7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. [Romans 2:6-7, NIV]
Why do you keeping avoiding this simple question?

I only resist your attempts to condemn believers using works, as that condemnation is not possible for any who have called upon Christ to save them. Save He Will. I resist the condemnation that the "accuser of the brethren" insists upon.

Again, this analysis of indwelling forces simply does not answer the question I am asking about the basis for the awarding of eternal life.

There is no "good work" that transpires apart from the good gifts of God in Christ, Himself.

Philemon 1:6
That the communication of thy faith may become effectual by the acknowledging of every good thing which is in you in Christ Jesus.

James 1:17
Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.

So what? How does this answer my question about the basis for the awarding of eternal life?
How does this answer my question about the basis for the awarding of eternal life?

Him in us is The Reward. No man "gets" eternal reward as a due or debt. It is given to them because of Who is already within them, by faith. And by the occasional miracle, we actually see some good trickle through the system, presently. Were it not for that, man would have collapsed into evil long ago, and did so in the past. And may very well do so again, going forward.

Jesus is perhaps only going to be observing for one matter:

Luke 18:
7 And shall not God avenge his own elect, which cry day and night unto him, though he bear long with them?
8 I tell you that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?

9 And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others:

 

[JLB]

Yet no matter what, the messenger of Satan in Paul's own flesh

No such thing as Satan in Paul's flesh.

You have created your own theology from a scripture that you grossly misunderstand and misquote.

Satan did not dwell in Paul's flesh.

7 And lest I should be exalted above measure by the abundance of the revelations, a thorn in the flesh was given to me, a messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I be exalted above measure.
8 Concerning this thing I pleaded with the Lord three times that it might depart from me.
9 And He said to me, "My grace is sufficient for you, for My strength is made perfect in weakness." Therefore most gladly I will rather boast in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.
10 Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in needs, in persecutions, in distresses, for Christ's sake. For when I am weak, then I am strong. 2 Corinthians 12:7-10

The scripture says "a thorn in the flesh".

The scripture does not say "Satan was in my flesh".

The scripture says a messenger of Satan, not Satan himself.

A messenger brings a message.

The message of Satan has to come through his messenger.

The word "weakness" and the word "infirmities" are the same Greek word - Strong's Number: 769

The messenger, means "one who is sent".

Just like Apostle means "sent" with the message from Christ.

Satan's messenger was sent by Satan, to stop Paul and his message.... in reproaches, in needs, in persecutions, in distresses, for Christ's sake.

Satan was not in Paul's flesh!


JLB

 

[Drew]

Him in us is The Reward. No man "gets" eternal reward as a due or debt. It is given to them because of Who is already within them, by faith.

Ok, let's go with this. You say:

"No man "gets" eternal reward as a due or debt. It is given to them because of Who is already within them, by faith"

Paul says:

6God “will repay each person according to what they have done.”7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. [Romans 2:6-7, NIV]

You assert that eternal life is granted based on the indwelling Jesus, who is appropriated based on faith.

Paul, at least here in Romans 2:6-7, says we get eternal life based on "what we have done - persisting in doing good".

How do you reconcile these seeming different positions?

 

[JLB]

The devil did not create himself. A belief that anything created itself is in fact polytheism. Isaiah 45:7

God created Lucifer.

Lucifer became the enemy, when he said:

'I will ascend into heaven,
I will exalt my throne above the stars of God;
I will also sit on the mount of the congregation On the farthest sides of the north;
I will ascend above the heights of the clouds, I will be like the Most High.'

12 "How you are fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! How you are cut down to the ground, You who weakened the nations!
13 For you have said in your heart: 'I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God; I will also sit on the mount of the congregation On the farthest sides of the north;
14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds, I will be like the Most High.'
15 Yet you shall be brought down to Sheol, To the lowest depths of the Pit.
16 "Those who see you will gaze at you, And consider you, saying: 'Is this the man who made the earth tremble, Who shook kingdoms,
17 Who made the world as a wilderness And destroyed its cities, Who did not open the house of his prisoners?'
Isaiah 14:12-17

Lucifer boasted that he will be like the Most High.


JLB

 

[smaller]

No such thing as Satan in Paul's flesh.

Paul's description will have to stand above yours.

2 Corinthians 12:
7 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.

You have created your own theology from a scripture that you grossly misunderstand and misquote.

Sin indwelt the flesh of Paul. Romans 7:17-21. IF what John the Apostle said about sin is true, that being it is of the devil, then Paul would line up in this, identically as well.

Satan did not dwell in Paul's flesh.

Read it how you will. Any believer should be able to recognize that internal temptations and various lusts are in fact of the tempter. Jesus also taught us all that it is evil thoughts that defile us. Matt. 15:19-20, Matt. 5:28, Mark 7:21-23.

The scripture does not say "Satan was in my flesh".

The scripture says a messenger of Satan, not Satan himself.

Read it how you will. Jesus told us quite clearly that where the Word is sown, Satan steals from the heart, and sins in that theft.

If sin is of the devil, and it is per 1 John 3:8, and Paul was the chief of sinners after salvation, the connection of sin to the tempter should be obvious enough for anyone to see.

It was on this basis, of this battle with the devil, that we are to clothe ourselves.

Eph. 6:
11 Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.
12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
13 Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.

The armor proposed is ALL internal in Spiritual nature, and it is internal, where the battles transpire.

14 Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness;
15 And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace;
16 Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked.
17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:

Temptation and lust was in Paul's own flesh. It is no leap of theologic to see that temptation is in fact, of the tempter.

If the tempter came to Jesus, the tempter will also come to all His Own. Satan had nothing "in Him." We can not say the same, as we all have sin Gal. 3:22, and sin is for a certain fact, of the devil. 1 John 3:8

This is our basis for the need of God's Grace and Mercy.

Without basis, there is no need.

 

[JLB]

2 Corinthians 12:
7 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.

I gave what Paul wrote -

there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, - not Satan in the flesh, nor a messenger of Satan in the flesh.

a thorn in the flesh.

...the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure. Not Satan, but a messenger of Satan.

The way Paul was buffeted was ... in reproaches, in needs, in persecutions, in distresses, for Christ's sake.


JLB

 

[JLB]

Sin indwelt the flesh of Paul. Romans 7:17-21. IF what John the Apostle said about sin is true, that being it is of the devil, then Paul would line up in this, identically as well.

Did Paul sin, or did Paul turn people from sin?

Was Paul of the devil, or was Paul of Christ.

He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. 1 John 3:8


JLB

 

[smaller]

Ok, let's go with this. You say:

"No man "gets" eternal reward as a due or debt. It is given to them because of Who is already within them, by faith"

Paul says:

6God “will repay each person according to what they have done.”7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. [Romans 2:6-7, NIV]

Let's just clear the table on this matter and recognize that your claim is that works provide eternal life. And that for supposed lack of same, believers will be damned to eternal burning. Isn't that what this game from your end is all about?

I look to Jesus for this matter, and in doing so, your claim of potential damnation to believers falls utterly on it's theological face.

John 5:24
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

There may very well be some difference in rewards, post flesh life. That, I can not tell as to specifics, neither does it interest me to speculate, other than to say our rewards are others gathered into His Kingdom, as this is also disclosed, here by Paul:

1 Thessalonians 2:
19 For what is our hope, or joy, or crown of rejoicing? Are not even ye in the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ at his coming?
20 For ye are our glory and joy.

Why in the world would I, or any, seek potential condemnations on such, for the supposed "lack" of works when the work of Christ is entirely sufficient? Is Christ insufficient to work in such? Is He not Able?

You assert that eternal life is granted based on the indwelling Jesus, who is appropriated based on faith.

Jesus makes the assertion, not "me."

John 6:47
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.

It is only the ill minded that seeks and tries to "take" this from believers, this granted eternal life, and makes it conditional on a sinner, which is impossible for them to gain what they never had to give.

How do you reconcile these seeming different positions?

By directly Gods children to eternal life, and directing eternal condemnation where it belongs, on the messenger(s) of Satan who seek to destroy them, by doubt, by works or by any means of blindness they might propose to destroy them with.

God in Christ never loses and never fails. No, not one of His will be lost.

Hebrews 7:25
Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

It is easy to judge any man insufficient. It is impossible to judge Christ insufficient.

 

[Drew]

Sin indwelt the flesh of Paul. Romans 7:17-21. IF what John the Apostle said about sin is true, that being it is of the devil, then Paul would line up in this, identically as well

Although many people believe that Romans 7 describes a struggle the believer faces, I think a careful analysis of this text, and especially the transition to Romans 8 shows that Romans 7 cannot apply to a believer. In fact, I will argue, it is Paul's analysis, looking back at his own life as a non-Christian Jew - of the plight of the Jew struggling under the Law of Moses. Lots of arguments to follow. But the following is a red-flag that Paul cannot be describing the struggle of a believer:

23but I see a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members. 24Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death? [Romans 7:23-24, NASB]]

A believer that is a prisoner to sin? I could spend all day posting scriptures that show that the believer has in fact been set free from this power. So Paul cannot possibly be describing a Christian here. In fact, right here in verse 24, Paul basically telegraphs what he will say in Romans 8 - that the believer has indeed been set free from the condition described here in Romans 7.

Now you, of course, deal with this by this curious "splitting" theology where you see people as composed of two parts. Well, we can, and no doubt will, talk about this.

 

[smaller]

I gave what Paul wrote -

there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, - not Satan in the flesh, nor a messenger of Satan in the flesh.

JLB

Yeah, it always amazes me how the obvious can be missed. What you say "not" stands out to me, clear as a bell:

2 Corinthians 12:7
And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.

If you think that it was a physical thorn, like some prick from a plant, I'd have to say pity as well. It was in fact, for no uncertain fact, just as Paul stated, a messenger of Satan.

 

[FreeGrace]

Paul defined gifts in Romans 1:11.

11 For I long to see you, that I may impart to you some spiritual gift, so that you may be established—

The gifts and calling are without repentance had zero to do with God "taking back" anything, as you have been shown.

The meaning of that word has nothing to do with taking anything back or not.

What in the world???!!! Of course it does. Spiritual gifts are from God, and He does NOT repent of giving them to believers. Of course they are irrevocable. Unless someone can PROVE from Scripture that any spiritual gift has been revoked. Good luck with that assignment.

Nor does that verse mention eternal life, but the calling to covenant relationship, of which all covenants have laws and stipulations that are required.JLB

Of course Rom 1:11 doesn't mention eternal life. What an odd statement. Eternal life is mentioned in Rom 6:23 as a gift of God, which Paul SAID is irrevocable in 11:29. Meaning; God does NOT repent of giving His gifts to those He has given them to.

Unless someone can PROVE from Romans that Paul never included the gift of eternal life and justification from 11:29, that argument has no legs. DOA.

No one has yet.

 

[smaller]

Although many people believe that Romans 7 describes a struggle the believer faces, I think a careful analysis of this text, and especially the transition to Romans 8 shows that Romans 7 cannot apply to a believer. In fact, I will argue, it is Paul's analysis, looking back at his own life as a non-Christian Jew - of the plight of the Jew struggling under the Law of Moses. Lots of arguments to follow. But the following is a red-flag that Paul cannot be describing the struggle of a believer:

Yeah, I think we've seen your attempts at eradicating Paul's statements as being "universal" prior, and your sight to diminish these facts. The universal quotients of sin in mankind are not eradicated by your misdirect above.

Galatians 3:22
But the scripture hath concluded all under sin,

The sin in Jews was not and is not one bit different than the sin in anyone else.

 

[FreeGrace]

The devil is made to resist everything of and about God in Christ.

No person makes the devil(s) do anything other than what they are made, even forced by "their" nature to do/perform. No one makes the devil not sin. No amount of personal responsibilities can change the scriptural quotients. Devils resist the things of God and they sin.

If 1 John 3:8 is true, then the devil remains linked to every sin. And not particular just to Paul, but to all who sin, and all sin.

I understand the efforts to deny that believers sins are connected, directly, to the tempter. But Paul shows quite clearly that sin indwelling his own flesh reacted adversely to the law of God, causing every manner of concupiscence to transpire within him. Romans 7:7-13 There is zero reason to see this matter as something particular only to Paul, seeing that the conclusions of scripture is that all are under sin. Gal. 3:22 If that was the case for Paul in his intimate and truthful disclosures, then it is likewise true for all sinners.

Indeed. We can view it no other way. What Paul shows for himself, he shows for all. If evil was present with Paul, which it was, Romans 7:21, then it again is true for all.

Are we going to save "evil present" "indwelling sin" "lusts in mind" and temptations in mind are OSAS? Uh, no. That would be a ridiculous claim, and it is a ridiculous claim. There is a rightful division of the parties that must apply.

Believers are forgiven. Satan and his messengers never will be forgiven. Grace has not blessed by forgiveness any persons sins. They are excused from the damnation that will come upon the adversaries. But none are released from the battle that transpires in the flesh with it's attendant lusts courtesy of the opposition parties.

That final fate will transpire at a certain point, yes.

It is to show that no person in the flesh can smear their entirety with OSAS because it does not extend to the flesh in which temptations transpire, same being of the tempter within to make temptations and lusts. OSAS can't go to that point with any believer.

There are two separate fates being fulfilled, which are opposite and opposing. OSAS is half a loaf. I might even say, a half baked notion that does not and can not address the indwelling sin/evil present, of the tempter, in all flesh.

I see no relevance of any of this post to the doctrine of eternal security. Sorry.

 

[FreeGrace]

I think that using Romans 11:29 to defend OSAS is a real stretch

Then, pleasse proceed to PROVE that Paul didn't mean "eternal life" by showing where Paul defined "gift" other than eternal life in Romans and how that is the only definition that he meant.

 

[FreeGrace]

To use Romans 11:29 to defend OSAS creates a huge problem - in the course of the very same argument containing this text, Paul clearly tells the Gentile believers (and, by context, it is clear that it is the Gentile believer that Paul is addressing) that they can indeed be lost:

But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree, 18do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you. 19You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in." 20Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. 22Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God's kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. [Romans 11:17-22, NASB]

Now, FreeGrace, please tell us what you think Paul is arguing here, and especially what do you think Paul means in verse 22 about the Gentile believer being "cut off".

First, it is a huge mistake to equate "being lost" to "being cut off". That phrase could easily mean any number of things. So let's NOT jump to such huge assumptions so fast.

The issue in Rom 11:17-22 is about being used by God for service. The Jews lost that privilege or service by their failure to be obedient to Him. So God turned to the Gentiles. The service that the Jews failed to obey was in keeping God's laws. And the same will be true of Gentiles; if they fail in their service to God, they too will be "cut off", or not be used by God.

The Jews were very proud of their heritage and that they were the "chosen nation", so much so that they were quite "racist" or ethnically biased against the 'dog' Gentiles. To be told that God has "cut them off" from His service would be a great shock to them. Rom 11:17-22 has NOTHING to do with loss of salvation.

Again, Paul is the only one who gets to decide what he meant by 11:29, and he doesn't just give us a hint about it. No, in fact, he specifically defines exactly what he means by "gifts of God" from 1:11 (spiritual gifts), 3:24 and 5:15,16,17 (justification) and 6:23 (eternal life). These are the ONLY things he defined as gifts of God.

There is NO OTHER meaning possible for 11:29.

 

[Drew]

Then, pleasse proceed to PROVE that Paul didn't mean "eternal life" by showing where Paul defined "gift" other than eternal life in Romans and how that is the only definition that he meant.

But surely you must understand that I could make a similar request of you in relation to James 1:27:

All good things are gifts given to us from God: Every good thing given and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shifting shadow [James 1:17, NASB]

Since James does not define the word "gift" in such a way as to exclude the gift of a nice job, and since God's gifts are irrevocable, does that not mean its impossible for me to lose my job? Of course not.

 

[Edward]

But surely you must understand that I could make a similar request of you in relation to James 1:27:

All good things are gifts given to us from God: Every good thing given and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shifting shadow [James 1:17, NASB]

Since James does not define the word "gift" in such a way as to exclude the gift of a nice job, and since God's gifts are irrevocable, does that not mean its impossible for me to lose my job? Of course not.

That's extreme thinking brother. Scripture covers that too.

Ecclesiastes 9:11
11 I returned, and saw under the sun, that the race is not to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, neither yet bread to the wise, nor yet riches to men of understanding, nor yet favour to men of skill; but time and chance happeneth to them all./

 

[Drew]

First, it is a huge mistake to equate "being lost" to "being cut off". That phrase could easily mean any number of things. So let's NOT jump to such huge assumptions so fast.

It's not a jump at all. Note what Paul says in verse 11:

11I say then, they did not stumble so as to fall, did they? May it never be! But by their transgression salvation has come to the Gentiles,
[Romans 11:11, NASB]

Are you really going to suggest that Paul is not using the metaphor of the Gentile being grafted into the olive tree as a way of speaking about this very same issue of salvation, even if other things are also incorporated under that metaphor? If we have to get the details we can, but I suggest Paul is clearly addressing the broad issue that membership in God's true family including, of course, salvation is accessible to Gentiles, but that these Gentiles should not look down on unbelieving Jews.

What could Paul possibly intend us to understand when he refers to the possibility of the believing Gentiles being cut off?

You propose an answer to that - I will get to that in my next post.