Are all people infected by sin?

[MarkT]

Paul's teaching in Roman's 1 says we are all without excuse because ,"His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead".

How did the hearts of those who are represented by the path get to be too hard to receive the word?
Who is responsible for that hardness?
Luke 8:12
The ones along the path are those who have heard; then the devil comes and takes away the word from their hearts, that they may not believe and be saved.
Matthew 13:19
When any one hears the word of the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what is sown in his heart; this is what was sown along the path.

The devil cannot snatch away what was planted in your heart if you resist him.

I think the hardness of the path is a reflection of the hardness of their hearts. The seed is easily taken away because they do not value it. In contrast, is the man who found a treasure hidden in a field and went and sold all he had and went and bought the field. He valued the word.


That was their choice to be "not of God."
Jhn 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.


God did not give them what they did not want.
God did not give them what they chose to reject.

God hardened their hearts. With them the prophecy of Isaiah was fulfilled.
Isaiah 6:10
Make the heart of this people fat, and their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their hearts, and turn and be healed.”

39 Therefore they could not believe. For Isaiah again said,
40 “He has blinded their eyes and hardened their heart,
lest they should see with their eyes and perceive with their heart,
and turn for me to heal them."John 12:39-40


Isaiah 63:17
O Lord, why dost thou make us err from thy ways and harden our heart, so that we fear thee not? Return for the sake of thy servants, the tribes of thy heritage.

The devil cannot snatch away what was planted in your heart if you resist him.

I think the hardness of the path is a reflection of the hardness of their hearts. The seed is easily taken away because they do not value it. In contrast, is the man who found a treasure hidden in a field and went and sold all he had and went and bought the field. He valued the word.

Matthew 13:19
When any one hears the word of the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what is sown in his heart; this is what was sown along the path.

When anyone hears the word and does not understand it. If you don't understand it, the devil snatches it away.

 

[Jim Parker]

I agree with you that the translators of Eph 2:1 do not fall under the curse of Rev 22:18?? Why? Because Rev 22:18 applies only to the Book of Revelation

Exactly. Thank you!

 

[Jim Parker]

God hardened their hearts. With them the prophecy of Isaiah was fulfilled.
Isaiah 6:10 Make the heart of this people fat, and their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their hearts, and turn and be healed.”
39 Therefore they could not believe. For Isaiah again said,
40 “He has blinded their eyes and hardened their heart,
lest they should see with their eyes and perceive with their heart,
and turn for me to heal them."John 12:39-40
Isaiah 63:17 O Lord, why dost thou make us err from thy ways and harden our heart, so that we fear thee not? Return for the sake of thy servants, the tribes of thy heritage.

God does harden the hearts of people who first harden their hearts to His word. In Exodus, Pharaoh demonstrates the paradigm. (Exo 8:15, 32; 9:12)

I believe Romans 1 explains the process.
Rom 1:18-25
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them.
For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. Professing to be wise, they became fools, and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man—and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things.
Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves, who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.

Matthew 13:19

When any one hears the word of the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what is sown in his heart; this is what was sown along the path.
When anyone hears the word and does not understand it. If you don't understand it, the devil snatches it away.

Yes. The path (the hearer's heart) had already been hardened so that it was unable to receive the seed (word). Therefore, the devil was able to snatch away what the hardened heart refused to receive into it.


iakov the fool

 

[MarkT]

God does harden the hearts of people who first harden their hearts to His word. In Exodus, Pharaoh demonstrates the paradigm. (Exo 8:15, 32; 9:12)

I believe Romans 1 explains the process.
Rom 1:18-25
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them.
For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. Professing to be wise, they became fools, and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man—and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things.
Therefore God also gave them up to uncleanness, in the lusts of their hearts, to dishonor their bodies among themselves, who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.
Yes. The path (the hearer's heart) had already been hardened so that it was unable to receive the seed (word). Therefore, the devil was able to snatch away what the hardened heart refused to receive into it.


iakov the fool

The LORD said, "But I will harden Pharaoh’s heart, and though I multiply my signs and wonders in the land of Egypt, Pharaoh will not listen to you; Ex. 7:3-4

It doesn't matter how you say it; the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, or Pharaoh's heart was hardened, or Pharaoh hardened his heart as the LORD said, the LORD caused it.

Romans 1:18-32 says,
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and wickedness of men who by their wickedness suppress the truth. 19 For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. 20 Ever since the creation of the world his invisible nature, namely, his eternal power and deity, has been clearly perceived in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse; 21 for although they knew God they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking and their senseless minds were darkened. 22 Claiming to be wise, they became fools, 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man or birds or animals or reptiles.

24 Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves, 25 because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed for ever! Amen.

26 For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. Their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural, 27 and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in their own persons the due penalty for their error.

28 And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a base mind and to improper conduct. 29 They were filled with all manner of wickedness, evil, covetousness, malice. Full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, malignity, they are gossips, 30 slanderers, haters of God, insolent, haughty, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, 31 foolish, faithless, heartless, ruthless. 32 Though they know God’s decree that those who do such things deserve to die, they not only do them but approve those who practice them. RSV

So they do not acknowledge God as the Creator. They exchange the glory of the immortal God for idols resembling mortal man or birds or animals or reptiles. They exchange the truth about God for a lie and they serve the creature rather than the Creator. Therefore God gives them up to a base mind and to improper conduct.

Obviously these men are not of God.

Yes. The path (the hearer's heart) had already been hardened so that it was unable to receive the seed (word). Therefore, the devil was able to snatch away what the hardened heart refused to receive into it.

John says, He has blinded their eyes and hardened their heart. Therefore they could not believe. John 12:39-40 RSV This is referring to the part of Israel who did not believe.

Nevertheless, the parable says, Matthew 13:19
When any one hears the word of the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what is sown in his heart; this is what was sown along the path.

So if they do not understand the word of the kingdom, the devil snatches away what is sown. And we know it is the spirit in a man that makes him understand.
Job 32:8
But it is the spirit in a man, the breath of the Almighty, that makes him understand.

There's no deciding to understand.

 

[Jim Parker]

It doesn't matter how you say it; the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, or Pharaoh's heart was hardened, or Pharaoh hardened his heart as the LORD said, the LORD caused it.

Yes.

My point was that FIRST, Pharaoh hardened his own heart and THEN God hardened it.

What I take away from that is that if you repeatedly choose to harden your heart against God's will then God will make your heart even harder so that you might learn from the consequences of your decision and repent.

It is God's will that no one should perish and God sent His son to save the world. (That's the WHOLE world.) The concept of God unilaterally preventing someone from being saved is, I believe, contrary to the teaching of scripture. But if man chooses to reject God's love ,then God will respect the person's choice.

God does not force anyone to love Him (contrary to "Irresistible Grace) nor doe He prevent anyone from coming to salvation. (contrary to "Limited Atonement.)

But John says, He has blinded their eyes and hardened their heart. Therefore they could not believe. John 12:39-40 RSV This is referring to the part of Israel who did not believe.

Again, it is those who refuse to hear or see or believe whose hearts are hardened.
BUt it was Jesus' mission to save the world not just those "predestined" to be saved.
God doesn't harden the hearts of random people so He will have someone to throw into hell.

 

[MarkT]

Yes.

My point was that FIRST, Pharaoh hardened his own heart and THEN God hardened it.

What I take away from that is that if you repeatedly choose to harden your heart against God's will then God will make your heart even harder so that you might learn from the consequences of your decision and repent.

It is God's will that no one should perish and God sent His son to save the world. (That's the WHOLE world.) The concept of God unilaterally preventing someone from being saved is, I believe, contrary to the teaching of scripture. But if man chooses to reject God's love ,then God will respect the person's choice.

God does not force anyone to love Him (contrary to "Irresistible Grace) nor doe He prevent anyone from coming to salvation. (contrary to "Limited Atonement.)

Again, it is those who refuse to hear or see or believe whose hearts are hardened.
BUt it was Jesus' mission to save the world not just those "predestined" to be saved.
God doesn't harden the hearts of random people so He will have someone to throw into hell.

Doesn't make sense. The LORD said he would harden Pharaoh's heart so Pharaoh would not listen to Moses. It doesn't make sense to say Pharaoh hardened his own heart first and then God hardened it?

I see cause and effect. The LORD said he would harden Pharaoh's heart. Cause. Pharaoh hardened his heart. Effect.

So in this particular instance, the LORD hardened the man's heart. That's not to say Pharaoh was a nice guy, but he was willing to let the people go EX. 8:8 until God hardened his heart. And God did harden Pharaoh's heart repeatedly and eventually he did let them go.

Proverbs 28:14
Blessed is the man who fears the Lord always; but he who hardens his heart will fall into calamity.

Here it says he who hardens his heart will fall into calamity. So I agree with the notion that if they refuse to listen they will fall into calamity.

It is God's will that no one should perish and God sent His son to save the world. (That's the WHOLE world.) The concept of God unilaterally preventing someone from being saved is, I believe, contrary to the teaching of scripture. But if man chooses to reject God's love ,then God will respect the person's choice.

God does not force anyone to love Him (contrary to "Irresistible Grace) nor doe He prevent anyone from coming to salvation. (contrary to "Limited Atonement.)

Again, it is those who refuse to hear or see or believe whose hearts are hardened.
BUt it was Jesus' mission to save the world not just those "predestined" to be saved.
God doesn't harden the hearts of random people so He will have someone to throw into hell.

It's God's will that none of his children shall perish.

 

[ezra]

Doesn't make sense. The LORD said he would harden Pharaoh's heart so Pharaoh would not listen to Moses. It doesn't make sense to say Pharaoh hardened his own heart first and then God hardened it?

what does it say? he hardened his heart refusing God.. then God hardened pharaoh.. we start the process of a reprobate mind

 

[turnorburn]

A couple of things..here we see that Jesus isn't praying for the world..

John 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

6 I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word.

7 Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee.

8 For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me.

9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.

10 And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them.

11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

13 And now come I to thee; and these things I speak in the world, that they might have my joy fulfilled in themselves.

14 I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.

16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.

18 As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.

19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.

20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

Here we see predestination according to foreknowledge..

Romans 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?

 

[Jim Parker]

It doesn't make sense to say Pharaoh hardened his own heart first and then God hardened it?

You may have difficulty making sense of it but that is exactly what the scripture says.
I already posted it for you.
Exo 8:15 But when Pharaoh saw that there was relief, he hardened his heart
Exo 8:32 But Pharaoh hardened his heart at this time also;
Exo 9:12 But the LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh;
It's not the scripture that is not making sense.

It's God's will that none of his children shall perish.

That is NOT what scripture says.
Once more:
2Pe 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness,
but is longsuffering toward us,
not willing that any should perish
but that all should come to repentance.

You don't get to insert "of His children" into what was written.
Scripture does not say; "... not willing that any of His children should perish. "

 

[MarkT]

Romans 9:21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the

You may have difficulty making sense of it but that is exactly what the scripture says.
I already posted it for you.
Exo 8:15 But when Pharaoh saw that there was relief, he hardened his heart
Exo 8:32 But Pharaoh hardened his heart at this time also;
Exo 9:12 But the LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh;
It's not the scripture that is not making sense.

That is NOT what scripture says.
Once more:
2Pe 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness,
but is longsuffering toward us,
not willing that any should perish
but that all should come to repentance.

You don't get to insert "of His children" into what was written.
Scripture does not say; "... not willing that any of His children should perish. "

You're not making any sense. The verses you quoted are connected to different times and different plagues. The LORD said he would harden Pharaoh's heart so that he would not listen to Moses and Aaron. Ex. 7:3 The LORD did it. He turned the waters of Egypt into blood. Pharaoh remained hardened. He plagued the country with frogs. Then Pharaoh asked Moses to entreat the LORD to take away the frogs saying he would let the people go to sacrifice to the LORD. But when Pharaoh saw the frogs died out, he hardened his heart; as the LORD said. This verse is connected to Ex. 7:3 by 'as the LORD said' when the LORD said he would harden Pharaoh's heart. Likewise verse 8:32 is connected to the other times by the words 'this time also' referring to the other times. So everything happened as the LORD said. Whenever the LORD says it, it happens.

That is NOT what scripture says.
Once more:
2Pe 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness,
but is longsuffering toward us,
not willing that any should perish
but that all should come to repentance.

You don't get to insert "of His children" into what was written.
Scripture does not say; "... not willing that any of His children should perish. "

That's the way I understand it.

 

[MarkT]

You may have difficulty making sense of it but that is exactly what the scripture says.
I already posted it for you.
Exo 8:15 But when Pharaoh saw that there was relief, he hardened his heart
Exo 8:32 But Pharaoh hardened his heart at this time also;
Exo 9:12 But the LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh;
It's not the scripture that is not making sense.

"But when Pharaoh saw that the rain and the hail and the thunder had ceased, he sinned yet again, and hardened his heart, he and his servants. 35 So the heart of Pharaoh was hardened, and he did not let the people of Israel go; as the Lord had spoken through Moses. 10 Then the Lord said to Moses, “Go in to Pharaoh; for I have hardened his heart and the heart of his servants, that I may show these signs of mine among them, 2 and that you may tell in the hearing of your son and of your son’s son how I have made sport of the Egyptians and what signs I have done among them; that you may know that I am the Lord.” Ex. 9:34-10:2 RSV

It should be understood that when it says Pharaoh hardened his heart it means the LORD hardened his heart.

It doesn't mean Pharaoh hardened his heart first and then the Lord hardened him again.

 

[ezra]

reformed theology ???

 

[OzSpen]

Doesn't make sense. The LORD said he would harden Pharaoh's heart so Pharaoh would not listen to Moses. It doesn't make sense to say Pharaoh hardened his own heart first and then God hardened it?

Mark,

These verses confirm that Pharaoh hardened his own heart:

• Ex 8:15, 'But when Pharaoh saw that there was relief, he hardened his heart and would not listen to Moses and Aaron, just as the Lord had said.' (NIV).
• Ex 8:32, 'But this time also Pharaoh hardened his heart and would not let the people go'.
• Ex 9:34, 'When Pharaoh saw that the rain and hail and thunder had stopped, he sinned again: He and his officials hardened their hearts'

These verses confirm that God hardened Pharaoh’s heart (Ex 7:3; 9:12; 10:1, 20, 27; 11:10; 14:4, 8).

So, who hardened Pharaoh's heart?

Oz

 

[Jim Parker]

Romans 9:21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the


You're not making any sense. The verses you quoted are connected to different times and different plagues. The LORD said he would harden Pharaoh's heart so that he would not listen to Moses and Aaron. Ex. 7:3 The LORD did it. He turned the waters of Egypt into blood. Pharaoh remained hardened. He plagued the country with frogs. Then Pharaoh asked Moses to entreat the LORD to take away the frogs saying he would let the people go to sacrifice to the LORD. But when Pharaoh saw the frogs died out, he hardened his heart; as the LORD said. This verse is connected to Ex. 7:3 by 'as the LORD said' when the LORD said he would harden Pharaoh's heart. Likewise verse 8:32 is connected to the other times by the words 'this time also' referring to the other times. So everything happened as the LORD said. Whenever the LORD says it, it happens.



That's the way I understand it.

OK.
Enjoy.

 

[ezra]

OK.
Enjoy.

i think your dealing with reformed theology

 

[Jim Parker]

It doesn't mean Pharaoh hardened his heart first and then the Lord hardened him again.

It means exactly what it says:
FIRST, Pharaoh hardened his heart and
THEN, after Pharaoh hardened his heart twice, the third time God hardened Pharaoh's heart.

It's very similar to Romans 1 which describes people who are aware of GOd's power (like Pharaoh was) but chose to reject Him anyway. So God "gave them over" to those self-destructive things that they insisted on having. Since they wouldn't respond to God's revealed holiness and power, God let them have what they wanted so that, perhaps, the result of their misdeeds would be severe enough for them to repent and seek him.

But, you don't see it that way.

That's OK.

Nobody goes to hell for not agreeing with me.

 

[Jim Parker]

i think your dealing with reformed theology

Yes. It does look that way.

 

[MarkT]

Mark,

These verses confirm that Pharaoh hardened his own heart:

• Ex 8:15, 'But when Pharaoh saw that there was relief, he hardened his heart and would not listen to Moses and Aaron, just as the Lord had said.' (NIV).
• Ex 8:32, 'But this time also Pharaoh hardened his heart and would not let the people go'.
• Ex 9:34, 'When Pharaoh saw that the rain and hail and thunder had stopped, he sinned again: He and his officials hardened their hearts'

These verses confirm that God hardened Pharaoh’s heart (Ex 7:3; 9:12; 10:1, 20, 27; 11:10; 14:4, 8).

So, who hardened Pharaoh's heart?

Oz

Depends on your perspective. If you have a spiritual mind, the Lord hardened Pharaoh's heart. If you have a human mind, Pharaoh hardened his heart. Take a look at EX. 9:34 - 10:2 Both expressions are used to say the same thing referring to the same event. ie. Pharaoh sinned again, and he hardened his heart. Then the LORD said to Moses "Go to Pharaoh, for I have hardened his heart.

I'd say Romans 9:17-19 establishes the truth.

Romans 9:17-19 Revised Standard Version (RSV)
17 For the scripture says to Pharaoh, “I have raised you up for the very purpose of showing my power in you, so that my name may be proclaimed in all the earth.” 18 So then he has mercy upon whomever he wills, and he hardens the heart of whomever he wills.

 

[Jim Parker]

If you have a spiritual mind,

"If you have a spiritual mind"????
Are you suggesting that you DO have a "spiritual mind" but that Spencer and I do not?
If so, that attitude of superiority would be a rather arrogant stance for someone to assume.
But, I may have misunderstood you.

 

[MarkT]

It means exactly what it says:
FIRST, Pharaoh hardened his heart and
THEN, after Pharaoh hardened his heart twice, the third time God hardened Pharaoh's heart.

It's very similar to Romans 1 which describes people who are aware of GOd's power (like Pharaoh was) but chose to reject Him anyway. So God "gave them over" to those self-destructive things that they insisted on having. Since they wouldn't respond to God's revealed holiness and power, God let them have what they wanted so that, perhaps, the result of their misdeeds would be severe enough for them to repent and seek him.

But, you don't see it that way.

That's OK.

Nobody goes to hell for not agreeing with me.

My point was that FIRST, Pharaoh hardened his own heart and THEN God hardened it.

What I take away from that is that if you repeatedly choose to harden your heart against God's will then God will make your heart even harder so that you might learn from the consequences of your decision and repent.

You can't choose to harden your heart. And your heart does not get harder. That's ridiculous. Nowhere does it say your heart gets harder. What are you doing adding verses together like it's a mathematical equation? Might as well say pharaoh's heart was hardened ten times (ten plagues) so it was ten times harder.