Are all people infected by sin?

[turnorburn]

here I think we have a difference between the RCC view of mankind (marred by sin, but not dead in our sins) and the traditional, Protestant view of mankind+total depravity. To be fair to the RCC and the Orthodox churches, their position is also informed by history, philosophy, tradition, etc...

whereas Protestants generally take more of a sola scriptura approach to the issue.

People like this..
http://www.biblebelievers.com/foxes/findex.htm

 

[Christ_empowered]

traditionally, Protestants -have- held a low view of the RCC. I don't know where to stand, personally, but...for example: I was raised Presbyterian (nominally...left wing...but, still...), and if I recall correctly, both Knox and Calvin held that The Pope is antichrist. boom. they were -that- serious about it. and now...

all things ecumenical are going on in much of Protestantism, and I don't get it. I mean...I like Dorothy Day, I like components of RCC social justice, but...

the theology itself is so fundamentally different from Protestantism that...I don't see any way to bridge the gap, unless the Protestants want to add some RCC style stuff to their doctrine and/or worship. which doesn't mean we cannot get along, but...

I don't get it. I considered RCIA classes (classes non-RCC people take prior to joining the RCC), and I haven't gone in but I"m still receiving the notes from each week by email. so...now, I see some of where they're coming from...and some of why I don't think I can join the RCC...I cannot wrap my mind around it, honestly. Grasp it...to a point, yes....really -get it-? No.

 

[OzSpen]

That's just it.. dead men have no desire for eternal life.. you have it backwards.

Ephesians 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

ToB,

In this English translation of Eph 2:1 (KJV), which words have been added in English that are not in the Greek NT of Eph 2:1?

What is the meaning of 'dead'? Is it like been 'dead to the world' when I'm asleep?

Oz

 

[Jim Parker]

the RCC and the Orthodox churches, their position is also informed by history, philosophy, tradition, etc...

The RCC does draw from philosophy of the ancient Greeks. (Primarily Plato and Aristotle)
They began to do so around 1100 AD in the universities and were referred to as "Scholastics" or "School Man." Their views included the idea that the Christian faith should be rational. One result of their rationalization of the faith is the "Transubstantiation" teaching by which they attempted to "make sense" of the bread and wine being the real body and blood of our LORD yet still having the appearance of bread and wine. They drew upon philosophical definitions to explain the paradox.

The Orthodox church did use words from Greek Philosophy because they were technically precise but they did not employ the philosophy of Aristotle and Plato to explain the mysteries of Christianity. Therefore, the orthodox response to the question, "How does the bread and wine become the body and blood of the LORD?" is; "It's a mystery." We are simply not intellectually equipped to understand how God does the things He does and He does not explain everything.

In fact, God said: "The secret things belong to the LORD our God, but those things which are revealed belong to us and to our children forever,..." (Deut 29:29)

iakov the fool

 

[MarkT]

The translation of that verse seems to define the spirit of man as the "breath of God."
The Septuagint renders it slightly differently:
"But there is a spirit in man, and the breath of the Almighty gives him understanding."
The word "breath" might be better translated "inspiration". (Heb: nĕshamah) But I am not an expert who can correct the translators.
I think we can agree that understanding comes from God.

I also think scripture tells us that all people are presented with (how shall I say?) a "seed" of the revelation of God. Paul tells us that we have no excuse not to glorify God.
Rom 1:18-23 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. Professing to be wise, they became fools, and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man—and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things.

So, it would seem that man is totally responsible for his choices; whether to serve God or serve himself.

iakov the fool

So understanding comes from God. So what happens when a man doesn't understand? The devil snatches away what was sown. So this man can not believe and be saved.

Luke 8:12
The ones along the path are those who have heard; then the devil comes and takes away the word from their hearts, that they may not believe and be saved.
Matthew 13:19
When any one hears the word of the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what is sown in his heart; this is what was sown along the path.

Regarding the Jews who wanted to stone Jesus; obviously God did not give them understanding so they could believe and be saved. Why? Jesus said they did not understand because they were not of God. Jesus was stating a fact. They were the devil's children.

Why do you not understand what I say? It is because you cannot bear to hear my word. 44 You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and has nothing to do with the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks according to his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies. 45 But, because I tell the truth, you do not believe me. 46 Which of you convicts me of sin? If I tell the truth, why do you not believe me? 47 He who is of God hears the words of God; the reason why you do not hear them is that you are not of God.” John 8:43-47 RSV

So believing is not a choice.

 

[Jim Parker]

So understanding comes from God. So what happens when a man doesn't understand? The devil snatches away what was sown. So this man can not believe and be saved.

Paul's teaching in Roman's 1 says we are all without excuse because ,"His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead".

How did the hearts of those who are represented by the path get to be too hard to receive the word?
Who is responsible for that hardness?
Luke 8:12
The ones along the path are those who have heard; then the devil comes and takes away the word from their hearts, that they may not believe and be saved.
Matthew 13:19
When any one hears the word of the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what is sown in his heart; this is what was sown along the path.

The devil cannot snatch away what was planted in your heart if you resist him.

I think the hardness of the path is a reflection of the hardness of their hearts. The seed is easily taken away because they do not value it. In contrast, is the man who found a treasure hidden in a field and went and sold all he had and went and bought the field. He valued the word.

Jesus said they did not understand because they were not of God.

That was their choice to be "not of God."
Jhn 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

Regarding the Jews who wanted to stone Jesus; obviously God did not give them understanding so they could believe and be saved. Why?

God did not give them what they did not want.
God did not give them what they chose to reject.

 

[Christ_empowered]

Jesus left the 99 to find the 1....and the sheep know -His voice-...

I think there are strong hints of predestination throughout Scripture. I think in the US, most of us want to believe that everyone "gets a fair shot" or whatever, because of cultural stuff...that's not Scripture.

 

[OzSpen]

So believing is not a choice.

Mark T,

If that's the case, then God was telling the Israelites to do the impossible when he stated:

14 “Now fear the Lord and serve him with all faithfulness. Throw away the gods your ancestors worshiped beyond the Euphrates River and in Egypt, and serve the Lord. 15 But if serving the Lord seems undesirable to you, then choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your ancestors served beyond the Euphrates, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you are living. But as for me and my household, we will serve the Lord” (Joshua 24:14-15 NIV).

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

Jesus left the 99 to find the 1....and the sheep know -His voice-...

I think there are strong hints of predestination throughout Scripture. I think in the US, most of us want to believe that everyone "gets a fair shot" or whatever, because of cultural stuff...that's not Scripture.

CE,

They are more than 'strong hints' of predestination/election in Scripture. There are many direct statements such as:

• 'And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose. For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters' (Rom 8:28-29 NIV).
• 'Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ,To God’s elect, exiles scattered throughout the provinces of Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia and Bithynia, who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to be obedient to Jesus Christ and sprinkled with his blood:
  Grace and peace be yours in abundance' (1 Pet 1:1-2 NIV).

For God, His predestination/choosing believers is linked with his foreknowledge.

I can't get my head around three things that happen before and at salvation: (1) God predestines before the creation of the world (Eph 1:4 NIV); (2) In his foreknowledge God knows who will be saved (verses above), and (3) God gives all those who hear the Gospel the ability to respond with a yes or a no (2 Pet 3:9 NIV; Titus 2:11; 1 John 2:2 ).

In the providence and sovereignty of God, He is able to bring these 3 teachings together in His truth about salvation.

Oz

 

[chessman]

Paul's teaching in Roman's 1 says we are all without excuse

No it doesn’t.

Because the thing known of God is evident in them, for God made it evident to them. For His invisible things — both His eternal power and divine-nature— are clearly-seen, being understood since the creation of the world in the things made, so that they are without-excuse. Because having known God, they did not glorify Him as God or give-thanks, but became futile in their thoughts, and their senseless heart was darkened.​

Romans 1:19-21 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Romans 1:19-21&version=DLNT

The truth is, the “they/them” who are without excuse is NOT “we all” as you stated but rather, and to the contrary, are a group of other people actively “holding-down the truth” with their senseless heart. Which is why Paul uses “they/them” and not “we/us”.

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of people holding-down the truth in unrighteousness.​

Romans 1:18 - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage?search=Romans 1:18&version=DLNT

 

[turnorburn]

traditionally, Protestants -have- held a low view of the RCC. I don't know where to stand, personally, but...for example: I was raised Presbyterian (nominally...left wing...but, still...), and if I recall correctly, both Knox and Calvin held that The Pope is antichrist. boom. they were -that- serious about it. and now...

all things ecumenical are going on in much of Protestantism, and I don't get it. I mean...I like Dorothy Day, I like components of RCC social justice, but...

the theology itself is so fundamentally different from Protestantism that...I don't see any way to bridge the gap, unless the Protestants want to add some RCC style stuff to their doctrine and/or worship. which doesn't mean we cannot get along, but...

I don't get it. I considered RCIA classes (classes non-RCC people take prior to joining the RCC), and I haven't gone in but I"m still receiving the notes from each week by email. so...now, I see some of where they're coming from...and some of why I don't think I can join the RCC...I cannot wrap my mind around it, honestly. Grasp it...to a point, yes....really -get it-? No.

Charles Spurgeon felt the same as Knox and Calvin..
“It is the bounden duty of every Christian to pray against Anti-Christ, and as to what Anti-Christ is no sane man ought to raise a question. If it be not Popery in the Church of Rome there is nothing in the world that can be called by that name…because it wounds Christ, because it robs Christ of His Glory, because it puts sacramental efficacy in the place of His atonement, and lifts a piece of bread in the place of the Saviour, and a few drops of water in place of the Holy Ghost, and puts a fallible man like ourselves up as the Vicar of Christ on earth; if we pray against it, because it is against Him, we shall love the persons though we hate their errors; we shall love their souls though we loath and detest their dogmas, and so the breath of our prayers will be sweetened, because we turn our faces towards Christ when we pray.”

~ C. H. Spurgeon

 

[turnorburn]

ToB,

In this English translation of Eph 2:1 (KJV), which words have been added in English that are not in the Greek NT of Eph 2:1?

What is the meaning of 'dead'? Is it like been 'dead to the world' when I'm asleep?

Oz

Like this?

The chart below illustrates what was done when the text used by Christianity for 1800 years was replaced with a text assembled by Brook Foss Westcott and Fenton John Anthony Hort in the nineteenth century and used as the basis for the English Revised Version, which nearly all modern translations closely follow.

https://av1611.com/kjbp/charts/themagicmarker.html

 

[Jim Parker]

I think there are strong hints of predestination throughout Scripture.

If some people are predestined to be saved and others predestined to be condemned then there is no reason to believe the Gospel. If you're predestined to be saved you will be saved and if you are predestined for hell then believing the Gospel won't make any difference.

The predestination referred to by Paul, in Romans and Ephesians, refers to the goal of the believer. Once a person believes, his life goal is predestined by God to be that he is conformed to the image and likeness of Christ. Believers are predestined to be like Christ BECAUSE they believe and submit to God's will.

Those who reject the Gospel and do not believe are predestined to be condemned to hell BECAUSE they chose not to believe and refused to pursue a course of action, in submission to God's commands, to be conformed to the image and likeness of Christ.

The path a person chooses predestines him to the end of that path.

Or so it seems to me.

Iakov the fool

 

[Christ_empowered]

hi. As I understand Calvinism, it works like this: everyone is required to believe upon Jesus for salvation. Only The Elect are given the inner-workings of The Holy Spirit to bring about genuine repentance, conversion, and faith. It isn't a tragedy that so many end up in Hell; rather, it is a grand and glorious miracle that God extends His love and mercy to The Elect.

 

[Jim Parker]

hi. As I understand Calvinism, it works like this: everyone is required to believe upon Jesus for salvation. Only The Elect are given the inner-workings of The Holy Spirit to bring about genuine repentance, conversion, and faith. It isn't a tragedy that so many end up in Hell; rather, it is a grand and glorious miracle that God extends His love and mercy to The Elect.

Here's the basics of Calvinism:
Total Depravity: Sin has affected all parts of man. The heart, emotions, will, mind, and body are all affected by sin. We are completely sinful. We are not as sinful as we could be, but we are completely affected by sin.

The doctrine of Total Depravity is derived from scriptures that reveal human character: Man’s heart is evil (Mark 7:21-23) and sick Jer. 17:9). Man is a slave of sin (Rom. 6:20). He does not seek for God (Rom. 3:10-12). He cannot understand spiritual things (1 Cor. 2:14). He is at enmity with God (Eph. 2:15). And, is by nature a child of wrath (Eph. 2:3). The Calvinist asks the question, "In light of the scriptures that declare man’s true nature as being utterly lost and incapable, how is it possible for anyone to choose or desire God?" The answer is, "He cannot. Therefore God must predestine."

Calvinism also maintains that because of our fallen nature we are born again not by our own will but God’s will (John 1:12-13); God grants that we believe (Phil. 1:29); faith is the work of God (John 6:28-29); God appoints people to believe (Acts 13:48); and God predestines (Eph. 1:1-11; Rom. 8:29; 9:9-23).

Unconditional Election: God does not base His election on anything He sees in the individual. He chooses the elect according to the kind intention of His will (Eph. 1:4-8; Rom. 9:11) without any consideration of merit within the individual. Nor does God look into the future to see who would pick Him. Also, as some are elected into salvation, others are not (Rom. 9:15, 21).

Limited Atonement: Jesus died only for the elect. Though Jesus’ sacrifice was sufficient for all, it was not efficacious for all. Jesus only bore the sins of the elect. Support for this position is drawn from such scriptures as Matt. 26:28 where Jesus died for ‘many'; John 10:11, 15 which say that Jesus died for the sheep (not the goats, per Matt. 25:32-33); John 17:9 where Jesus in prayer interceded for the ones given Him, not those of the entire world; Acts 20:28 and Eph. 5:25-27 which state that the Church was purchased by Christ, not all people; and Isaiah 53:12 which is a prophecy of Jesus’ crucifixion where he would bore the sins of many (not all).

Irresistible Grace: When God calls his elect into salvation, they cannot resist. God offers to all people the gospel message. This is called the external call. But to the elect, God extends an internal call and it cannot be resisted. This call is by the Holy Spirit who works in the hearts and minds of the elect to bring them to repentance and regeneration whereby they willingly and freely come to God. Some of the verses used in support of this teaching are Romans 9:16 where it says that "it is not of him who wills nor of him who runs, but of God who has mercy"; Philippians 2:12-13 where God is said to be the one working salvation in the individual; John 6:28-29 where faith is declared to be the work of God; Acts 13:48 where God appoints people to believe; and John 1:12-13 where being born again is not by man’s will, but by God’s.
“All that the Father gives Me shall come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out," (John 6:37).

Perseverance of the Saints: You cannot lose your salvation. Because the Father has elected, the Son has redeemed, and the Holy Spirit has applied salvation, those thus saved are eternally secure. They are eternally secure in Christ. Some of the verses for this position are John 10:27-28 where Jesus said His sheep will never perish; John 6:47 where salvation is described as everlasting life; Romans 8:1 where it is said we have passed out of judgment; 1 Corinthians 10:13 where God promises to never let us be tempted beyond what we can handle; and Phil. 1:6 where God is the one being faithful to perfect us until the day of Jesus’ return.

While parts to all of Calvinism has been widely accepted among many Protestant denominations, at the Synod of Jerusalem in 1672, it was rejected by the Orthodox church as heretical.

Synod of Jerusalem (1672)
DECREE III.

We believe the most good God to have from eternity predestinated unto glory those whom He hath chosen, and to have consigned unto condemnation those whom He hath rejected; but not so that He would justify the one, and consign and condemn the other without cause. For that were contrary to the nature of God, who is the common Father of all, and no respecter of persons, and would have all men to be saved, and to come to the knowledge of the truth; {1 Timothy 2:4} but since He foreknew the one would make a right use of their free-will, and the other a wrong, He predestinated the one, or condemned the other. And we understand the use of free-will thus, that the Divine and illuminating grace, and which we call prevenient grace, being, as a light to those in darkness, by the Divine goodness imparted to all, to those that are willing to obey this — for it is of use only to the willing, not to the unwilling — and co-operate with it, in what it requires as necessary to salvation, there is consequently granted particular grace; which, co-operating with us, and enabling us, and making us perseverant in the love of God, that is to say, in performing those good things that God would have us to do, and which His prevenient grace admonishes us that we should do, justifies us, and makes us predestinated. But those who will not obey, and co-operate with grace; and, therefore, will not observe those things that God would have us perform, and that abuse in the service of Satan, the free-will, which they have received of God to perform voluntarily what is good, are consigned to eternal condemnation.

But to say, as the most wicked heretics do and as is contained in the Chapter answering hereto — that God, in predestinating, or condemning, had in no wise regard to the works of those predestinated, or condemned, we know to be profane and impious. For thus Scripture would be opposed to itself, since it promises the believer salvation through works, yet supposes God to be its sole author, by His sole illuminating grace, which He bestows without preceding works, to show to man the truth of divine things, and to teach him how he may co-operate therewith, if he will, and do what is good and acceptable, and so obtain salvation. He takes not away the power to will — to will to obey, or not obey him.

But than to affirm that the Divine Will is thus solely and without cause the author of their condemnation, what greater calumny can be fixed upon God? And what greater injury and blasphemy can be offered to the Most High? For that the Deity is not tempted with evils, {cf. James 1:13} and that He equally wills the salvation of all, since there is no respect of persons with Him, we do know; and that for those who through their own wicked choice, and their impenitent heart, have become vessels of dishonor, there is, as is just, decreed condemnation, we do confess. But of eternal punishment, of cruelty, of pitilessness, and of inhumanity, we never, never say God is the author, who tells us that there is joy in heaven over one sinner that repents. {Luke 15:7} Far be it from us, while we have our senses, thus to believe, or to think; and we do subject to an eternal anathema those who say and think such things, and esteem them to be worse than any infidels.

 

[turnorburn]

What does the Orthodox church teach on the veneration of Mary and the Saints?

 

[OzSpen]

Like this?

The chart below illustrates what was done when the text used by Christianity for 1800 years was replaced with a text assembled by Brook Foss Westcott and Fenton John Anthony Hort in the nineteenth century and used as the basis for the English Revised Version, which nearly all modern translations closely follow.

https://av1611.com/kjbp/charts/themagicmarker.html

ToB,

Like this?

The chart below illustrates what was done when the text used by Christianity for 1800 years was replaced with a text assembled by Brook Foss Westcott and Fenton John Anthony Hort in the nineteenth century and used as the basis for the English Revised Version, which nearly all modern translations closely follow.

https://av1611.com/kjbp/charts/themagicmarker.html

ToB,

This was my question: 'In this English translation of Eph 2:1 (KJV), which words have been added in English that are not in the Greek NT of Eph 2:1?'

The KJV of 1611 was well before Westcott & Hort. I asked which words in Eph 2:1 (KJV) were added in English that were not in the Greek text.

Oz

 

[Jim Parker]

which words have been added in English that are not in the Greek NT of Eph 2:1?'

The words "He made alive" were added.
Eph 2:1 And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins,

Those words are not in the Greek.

καὶ ὑμᾶς ὄντας νεκροὺς τοῖς παραπτώμασιν καὶ ταῖς ἁμαρτίαις ὑμῶν (MGNT)
καὶ ὑμᾶς ὄντας νεκροὺς τοῖς παραπτώμασιν καὶ ταῖς ἁμαρτίαις (TR)
and you who were dead (in the) trasspasses and (in the) sins

The words "He made alive" are not in the Greek.

The words are found in the KJV, NKJV, RSV, ASV, WEB and HNV.
They are not found in the NLT, NIV, ESV, CSB, NASB, NET, YLT, DBY, and VUL.

But the identical idea is found at 2:4-5.
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,
5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),

And that's what you get with a translation. A literal translation would often be impossible to clearly understand so the translators focus on expressing the meaning of the Greek idea in Modern English.

Since those words were added to a variety of translation, do the translators fall under the curse of Rev 22:18?? I think not.

iakov the fool

 

[OzSpen]

The words "He made alive" were added.
Eph 2:1 And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins,

Those words are not in the Greek.

καὶ ὑμᾶς ὄντας νεκροὺς τοῖς παραπτώμασιν καὶ ταῖς ἁμαρτίαις ὑμῶν (MGNT)
καὶ ὑμᾶς ὄντας νεκροὺς τοῖς παραπτώμασιν καὶ ταῖς ἁμαρτίαις (TR)
and you who were dead (in the) trasspasses and (in the) sins

The words "He made alive" are not in the Greek.

The words are found in the KJV, NKJV, RSV, ASV, WEB and HNV.
They are not found in the NLT, NIV, ESV, CSB, NASB, NET, YLT, DBY, and VUL.

But the identical idea is found at 2:4-5.
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,
5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),

And that's what you get with a translation. A literal translation would often be impossible to clearly understand so the translators focus on expressing the meaning of the Greek idea in Modern English.

Since those words were added to a variety of translation, do the translators fall under the curse of Rev 22:18?? I think not.

iakov the fool

Good evening (my time), Jim,

Eph 2:1 in the NKJV reads: 'And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins'. The italics, 'He made alive', indicate it's not in the original text, but you are correct in pointing out that this clause is needed for meaning that is obtained from Eph 2:5. The 'you' is plural.

Translators do this regularly to obtain a free flowing translation. A word-for-word translation is nigh impossible to make sense in English from Greek.

The Nestle and SBL Greek Text includes ὑμῶν = 'of you' at the end of the sentence of Eph 2:1.

Eph 2:1 in the Textus Receptus on which the NKJV NT is based reads: και υμας οντας νεκρους τοις παραπτωμασιν και ταις αμαρτιαις
and you being dead in the transgressions and in the sins

I agree with you that the translators of Eph 2:1 do not fall under the curse of Rev 22:18?? Why? Because Rev 22:18 applies only to the Book of Revelation, which was written as a separate book before the compilation of the NT canon of Scripture.

Oz

 

[WIP]

hi. As I understand Calvinism, it works like this: everyone is required to believe upon Jesus for salvation. Only The Elect are given the inner-workings of The Holy Spirit to bring about genuine repentance, conversion, and faith. It isn't a tragedy that so many end up in Hell; rather, it is a grand and glorious miracle that God extends His love and mercy to The Elect.

An observation: What you wrote above seems to be contradictory to 1 Timothy 2:3-4 (NKJV).

For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

I think it may be possible that God does have certain individuals that He includes among the "elect" and why He does is not my concern but He still paved the way through Jesus Christ for all to be saved.