E
evanman
Guest
A man's religion is measured by what he does--not by what he teaches, nor by what he is taught! The Truth isGod's Word made manifest in reality
Are all Religions True?
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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
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A man's religion is measured by what he does--not by what he teaches, nor by what he is taught! The Truth isGod's Word made manifest in reality
evanman said:
While it may be true that a person's religion is measured by what they do, their faith and salavtion are measured by who and what they believe in.
Exactlly, Vic. :wink: Exactlly. Only over the past 3 years have I been able to skim the surface of such things. Prasie God \o/
E
evanman
Guest
This was my point, religion is not the source nor the fountain of salvation. Salvation comes as a result of the death and ressurection of Jesus Christ!
G
Gary
Guest
Lies about Islam
Exposing Islam again
Salam1: We just don't know, its not up to us to decide. But to me, if someone belives (sic) in One God (that has no partners) all the prophets, books, angels, in the afterlife, good works...then they are doing what ever they can to be on the straight path, and that is what counts.
Gary: You cannot WORK your way to heaven.
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Salam1: I am God's creation, but God loves me more then a father would love his child.
Gary: Where does it say in the Quran that Allah LOVES you more than a father loves his child?
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Salam1: I can't think of a religion that so strongly supports monotheism other then Islam.
Gary: Islam, Judaism and Christianity are all monotheistic. The issue with Islamic monotheism is that it makes Allah the author of evil.
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saved4life: Did your God create the world in 6 days, and make Eve out of Adam's rib?
Salam1: True.
Gary: Actually not true at all. In the Quran, Sura 7:54, 10:3, 11:7, and 25:59 clearly state that Allah created "the heavens and the earth" in six days. But in Sura 41:9-12 the detailed description of the creation procedure adds up to eight days. Secondly, the Quran does NOT describe how Eve was created. In fact, the Quran does not even call her “Eveâ€. The Quran mentions Adam’s “wife†but does not say how and when she was created. (Sura 2:35)
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Salam1: Moses and his people were muslims since they submitted to God.
Gary: Moses and his people were never called muslims. Muhammad made that up.
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Salam1: Only certain humans are given miracles, and usually for prophetic (sic) purposes.
Gary: Muhammad performed no miracles.
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saved4life: Was Jesus sinless?
Salam1: In our faith, he (Jesus) was a Prophet, a man, and since he was a man... It is impossible not to sin.
Gary: The Bible tells us that Jesus was the only person who ever lived who was entirely without sin. The Bible charges all men, from Adam onwards, as being under the power of sin and as having sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. Only Jesus is excepted. “He committed no sin, no guile was found on his lips.†The Quran, too, appears to support the concept that Jesus was without sin. When the angel Jibril (Gabriel) appeared to Mary to announce her conception of Jesus, he said “I am only a messenger of your Lord, to announce to you a faultless son.â€
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saved4life: Is there a Heaven with many virgins?
Salam1: Obviously reading apologetic material, what is your definition of Heaven? Mine is a place that has things not heard of and you can do whatever you wish.
Gary: That explains why there are rivers of wine in Islamic “paradise†but wine is not allowed on earth! As for those “virginsâ€, the Quran says: In them will be fair (Maidens), good, beautiful….. Maidens restrained (as to their glances), in (goodly) pavilions….. Whom no man or Jinn before them has touched….. (Sura 55:70,72,74)
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saved4life: Do women get virgins, too?
Salam1: Its heaven right?? Heaven is a place where your wish, is always granted.
Gary: There is no mention of virgins for women in “paradise.†In fact, in the Hadith, Muhammad said that the majority of people in hell are women.
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Exposing Islam again
Salam1: We just don't know, its not up to us to decide. But to me, if someone belives (sic) in One God (that has no partners) all the prophets, books, angels, in the afterlife, good works...then they are doing what ever they can to be on the straight path, and that is what counts.
Gary: You cannot WORK your way to heaven.
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Salam1: I am God's creation, but God loves me more then a father would love his child.
Gary: Where does it say in the Quran that Allah LOVES you more than a father loves his child?
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Salam1: I can't think of a religion that so strongly supports monotheism other then Islam.
Gary: Islam, Judaism and Christianity are all monotheistic. The issue with Islamic monotheism is that it makes Allah the author of evil.
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saved4life: Did your God create the world in 6 days, and make Eve out of Adam's rib?
Salam1: True.
Gary: Actually not true at all. In the Quran, Sura 7:54, 10:3, 11:7, and 25:59 clearly state that Allah created "the heavens and the earth" in six days. But in Sura 41:9-12 the detailed description of the creation procedure adds up to eight days. Secondly, the Quran does NOT describe how Eve was created. In fact, the Quran does not even call her “Eveâ€. The Quran mentions Adam’s “wife†but does not say how and when she was created. (Sura 2:35)
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Salam1: Moses and his people were muslims since they submitted to God.
Gary: Moses and his people were never called muslims. Muhammad made that up.
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Salam1: Only certain humans are given miracles, and usually for prophetic (sic) purposes.
Gary: Muhammad performed no miracles.
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saved4life: Was Jesus sinless?
Salam1: In our faith, he (Jesus) was a Prophet, a man, and since he was a man... It is impossible not to sin.
Gary: The Bible tells us that Jesus was the only person who ever lived who was entirely without sin. The Bible charges all men, from Adam onwards, as being under the power of sin and as having sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. Only Jesus is excepted. “He committed no sin, no guile was found on his lips.†The Quran, too, appears to support the concept that Jesus was without sin. When the angel Jibril (Gabriel) appeared to Mary to announce her conception of Jesus, he said “I am only a messenger of your Lord, to announce to you a faultless son.â€
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saved4life: Is there a Heaven with many virgins?
Salam1: Obviously reading apologetic material, what is your definition of Heaven? Mine is a place that has things not heard of and you can do whatever you wish.
Gary: That explains why there are rivers of wine in Islamic “paradise†but wine is not allowed on earth! As for those “virginsâ€, the Quran says: In them will be fair (Maidens), good, beautiful….. Maidens restrained (as to their glances), in (goodly) pavilions….. Whom no man or Jinn before them has touched….. (Sura 55:70,72,74)
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saved4life: Do women get virgins, too?
Salam1: Its heaven right?? Heaven is a place where your wish, is always granted.
Gary: There is no mention of virgins for women in “paradise.†In fact, in the Hadith, Muhammad said that the majority of people in hell are women.
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S
Salam1
Guest
You are obviously Protestant, correct?
It doesn't, however that is how I personally feel, there is a hadith hitting close to this.
1. Judaism and Chrisitainty are Monotheistic, yes. But Islam is very anti-pagan. There are a ton of passages in the Quran that ask men to stop worhiping idols and multiple Gods.
2. Calling my God "the author of evil" is childish and naive. Lets leave name calling to the toddlers.
I have heard refutations of this. I will post them as I find them.
Correct, her name is Hawwa in the Hadith and is told of in the hadith.
I disagree. A muslim is one who submits to God. Moses pbuh submitted to God.
Note: Gary I understand according to your religion that he was a Jew. This is part of my religion, and I believe that God told us this, and no human being "made it up".
I disagree, He pbuh was able to make water flow from his fingertips for his people to do abluation.
Again, that is part of your faith.
Please tell me exactly what ayat (verse) you found this on. Then we can talk.
Of course Gary!! Need I remind you that it is Heaven! A far beyond perfect place!
We are talking about Heaven here. Your every wish will be granted here(inshallah).
The Quran says that the "belivers" will enter paradise. Of course women are among the belivers, and will be granted their heart's desire.
Gary, our concept of heaven is a place far from what we can even try to visiualize in our heads.
Where did you find this hadith?
G
Gary
Guest
Are all religions true? No.. Islam is false
Are all religions true? No……
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Salam1: We just don't know, its not up to us to decide. But to me, if someone belives (sic) in One God (that has no partners) all the prophets, books, angels, in the afterlife, good works...then they are doing what ever they can to be on the straight path, and that is what counts.
Gary: You cannot WORK your way to heaven.
Salam1: You are obviously Protestant, correct?
Gary: I follow what the Bible says and what Jesus taught. Jesus affirmed that every person needs God’s grace. Jesus’ disciples said to him, “Who then can be saved?†Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible†(Matthew 19:25-26). All through the Gospel of John, Jesus presented only one way to obtain God’s gracious salvation: “Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life†(John 3:36; 3:16; 5:24; Mark 1:15). Paul taught the same concept; salvation by grace through faith, affirming, “It is by grace you have been saved, through faith - and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God - not by works, so that no one can boast†(Ephesians 2:8-9; Titus 3:5-7).
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Salam1: I am God's creation, but God loves me more then a father would love his child.
Gary: Where does it say in the Quran that Allah LOVES you more than a father loves his child?
Salam1: It doesn't, however that is how I personally feel, there is a hadith hitting close to this.
Gary: So you believe something which is NOT in the Quran but only in the Hadith?
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Salam1: I can't think of a religion that so strongly supports monotheism other then Islam.
Gary: Islam, Judaism and Christianity are all monotheistic. The issue with Islamic monotheism is that it makes Allah the author of evil.
Salam1: (1) Judaism and Chrisitainty (sic) are Monotheistic, yes. But Islam is very anti-pagan. There are a ton of passages in the Quran that ask men to stop worhiping (sic) idols and multiple Gods. (2) Calling my God "the author of evil" is childish and naive. Lets leave name calling to the toddlers.
Gary: (1) If Islam is so anti-pagan, why do you have so many pagan rituals in your religion? (2) Allah is the author of evil. The Qur’an frankly admits that Allah could have saved all, but did not desire to do so. Sura 32:13 declares: "Had we so willed We should have brought every soul its guidance, but true is that saying of Mine: ‘I shall assuredly fill up Gehenna with jinn and men together."’ It is extremely difficult to understand how, holding such a view, one can consistently maintain any kind of human responsibility. The logical problem with Islamic determinism is that even Muslim commentators are forced to acknowledge that Allah performs contradictory actions. Islamicist Ignaz Golziher summarizes the situation, "There is probably no other point of doctrine on which equally contradictory teachings can be derived from the Qur’an as on this one" (Golziher, 78). One Muslim scholar notes, "The Qur’anic doctrine of Predestination is very explicit though not very logical" (Stanton, 54-55). For example, Allah is "the One Who leads astray," as well as "the One Who guides." He is "the One Who brings damage," as also does Satan. He is "the Bringer-down," "the Compeller" or "Tyrant," and "the Haughty." When describing people, all these concepts have an evil sense.
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saved4life: Did your God create the world in 6 days, and make Eve out of Adam's rib?
Salam1: True.
Gary: (1) Actually not true at all. In the Quran, Sura 7:54, 10:3, 11:7, and 25:59 clearly state that Allah created "the heavens and the earth" in six days. But in Sura 41:9-12 the detailed description of the creation procedure adds up to eight days. (2) Secondly, the Quran does NOT describe how Eve was created. In fact, the Quran does not even her “Eveâ€. The Quran mentions Adam’s “wife†but does not say how and when she was created. (Sura 2:35)
Salam1: (1) I have heard refutations of this. I will post them as I find them. (2) Correct, her name is Hawwa in the Hadith and is told of in the hadith.
Gary: (1) No need to post Islamic polemic sites. The Quran says it all. (2) So again, the Hadith has more information than the Quran! I thought that you do not believe anything which is in the Hadith but not in the Quran.
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Salam1: Moses and his people were muslims since they submitted to God.
Gary: Moses and his people were never called muslims. Muhammad made that up.
Salam1: I disagree. A muslim is one who submits to God. Moses pbuh submitted to God. Note: Gary I understand according to your religion that he was a Jew. This is part of my religion, and I believe that God told us this, and no human being "made it up".
Gary: Your religion does not tie up with facts. Moses was never called a Muslim. The Jews were never called Muslims. Those are the facts. Logically, Muhammad’s claim is also false. If the Jews and Moses were “Muslims†(submitters to God), what happened when they turned from God as they did many times….. did they cease being “Muslimsâ€? There is NO record before Muhammad that Jews were ever called “muslimsâ€.
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Salam1: Only certain humans are given miracles, and usually for prophetic (sic) purposes.
Gary: Muhammad performed no miracles.
Salam1: I disagree, He pbuh was able to make water flow from his fingertips for his people to do abluation. (sic)
Gary: Again, you believe the Hadith over the Quran. In his Quran, Muhammad says that Allah did not give Muhammad power to perform miracles (Sura 6:109-112; 17:92-97; 18:10; 29:49-50), that he was a mortal like anyone else (Sura 41:6) and that he was an ordinary man, (Sura 17:90-96).
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saved4life: Was Jesus sinless?
Salam1: In our faith, he (Jesus) was a Prophet, a man, and since he was a man... It is impossible not to sin.
Gary: (1) The Bible tells us that Jesus was the only person who ever lived who was entirely without sin. The Bible charges all men, from Adam onwards, as being under the power of sin and as having sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. Only Jesus is excepted. “He committed no sin, no guile was found on his lips.†(2) The Quran, too, appears to support the concept that Jesus was without sin. When the angel Jibril (Gabriel) appeared to Mary to announce her conception of Jesus, he said “I am only a messenger of your Lord, to announce to you a faultless son.â€
Salam1: (1) Again, that is part of your faith. (2) Please tell me exactly what ayat (verse) you found this on. Then we can talk.
Gary: (1) Yes, it is part of what is in the Bible. Jesus was born of a virgin (in both the Bible and the Quran). Jesus was and is the Messiah (in both the Bible and the Quran). He was greater than all the prophets. He was the Word of God. Jesus performed many miracles (in both the Bible and the Quran). Jesus was sinless (in both the Bible and the Quran). (2) The Quran says: “I am only a messenger of your Lord, to announce to you a faultless son.†(Surah 19:19).
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saved4life: Is there a Heaven with many virgins?
Salam1: Obviously reading apologetic material, what is your definition of Heaven? Mine is a place that has things not heard of and you can do whatever you wish.
Gary: (1) That explains why there are rivers of wine in Islamic “paradise†but wine is not allowed on earth! (2) As for those “virginsâ€, the Quran says: In them will be fair (Maidens), good, beautiful….. Maidens restrained (as to their glances), in (goodly) pavilions….. Whom no man or Jinn before them has touched….. (Sura 55:70,72,74)
Salam1: (1) Of course Gary!! Need I remind you that it is Heaven! A far beyond perfect place! (2) We are talking about Heaven here. Your every wish will be granted here (inshallah).
Gary: (1) So Islam thinks that what is BAD on earth is GOOD in “paradiseâ€. (2) We are not talking about heaven. We are talking about the Islamic concept of “paradise.†Show me the Sura in the Quran that says that “your every wish will be granted in paradiseâ€.
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saved4life: Do women get virgins, too?
Salam1: Its heaven right?? Heaven is a place where your wish, is always granted.
Gary: (1) There is no mention of virgins for women in “paradise.†(2) In fact, in the Hadith, Muhammad said that the majority of people in hell are women.
Salam1: (1) The Quran says that the "belivers" (sic) will enter paradise. Of course women are among the belivers (sic), and will be granted their heart's desire. Gary, our concept of heaven is a place far from what we can even try to visiualize in our heads. (2) Where did you find this hadith?
Gary: (1) Virgins are mentioned for males. There is no mention of virgins for females. The Quran is quite specific. It describes “paradise†several times. It does NOT say that “paradise†is a “place far from what we can even try to visiualize in our heads.†If it does, please reference the Sura which says that. (2) Sahih Al-Bukhari: Volume 1, Book 2, Number 28: Narrated Ibn 'Abbas: The Prophet said: "I was shown the Hell-fire and that the majority of its dwellers were women who were ungrateful." …..
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Are all religions true? No……
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Salam1: We just don't know, its not up to us to decide. But to me, if someone belives (sic) in One God (that has no partners) all the prophets, books, angels, in the afterlife, good works...then they are doing what ever they can to be on the straight path, and that is what counts.
Gary: You cannot WORK your way to heaven.
Salam1: You are obviously Protestant, correct?
Gary: I follow what the Bible says and what Jesus taught. Jesus affirmed that every person needs God’s grace. Jesus’ disciples said to him, “Who then can be saved?†Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible†(Matthew 19:25-26). All through the Gospel of John, Jesus presented only one way to obtain God’s gracious salvation: “Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life†(John 3:36; 3:16; 5:24; Mark 1:15). Paul taught the same concept; salvation by grace through faith, affirming, “It is by grace you have been saved, through faith - and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God - not by works, so that no one can boast†(Ephesians 2:8-9; Titus 3:5-7).
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Salam1: I am God's creation, but God loves me more then a father would love his child.
Gary: Where does it say in the Quran that Allah LOVES you more than a father loves his child?
Salam1: It doesn't, however that is how I personally feel, there is a hadith hitting close to this.
Gary: So you believe something which is NOT in the Quran but only in the Hadith?
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Salam1: I can't think of a religion that so strongly supports monotheism other then Islam.
Gary: Islam, Judaism and Christianity are all monotheistic. The issue with Islamic monotheism is that it makes Allah the author of evil.
Salam1: (1) Judaism and Chrisitainty (sic) are Monotheistic, yes. But Islam is very anti-pagan. There are a ton of passages in the Quran that ask men to stop worhiping (sic) idols and multiple Gods. (2) Calling my God "the author of evil" is childish and naive. Lets leave name calling to the toddlers.
Gary: (1) If Islam is so anti-pagan, why do you have so many pagan rituals in your religion? (2) Allah is the author of evil. The Qur’an frankly admits that Allah could have saved all, but did not desire to do so. Sura 32:13 declares: "Had we so willed We should have brought every soul its guidance, but true is that saying of Mine: ‘I shall assuredly fill up Gehenna with jinn and men together."’ It is extremely difficult to understand how, holding such a view, one can consistently maintain any kind of human responsibility. The logical problem with Islamic determinism is that even Muslim commentators are forced to acknowledge that Allah performs contradictory actions. Islamicist Ignaz Golziher summarizes the situation, "There is probably no other point of doctrine on which equally contradictory teachings can be derived from the Qur’an as on this one" (Golziher, 78). One Muslim scholar notes, "The Qur’anic doctrine of Predestination is very explicit though not very logical" (Stanton, 54-55). For example, Allah is "the One Who leads astray," as well as "the One Who guides." He is "the One Who brings damage," as also does Satan. He is "the Bringer-down," "the Compeller" or "Tyrant," and "the Haughty." When describing people, all these concepts have an evil sense.
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saved4life: Did your God create the world in 6 days, and make Eve out of Adam's rib?
Salam1: True.
Gary: (1) Actually not true at all. In the Quran, Sura 7:54, 10:3, 11:7, and 25:59 clearly state that Allah created "the heavens and the earth" in six days. But in Sura 41:9-12 the detailed description of the creation procedure adds up to eight days. (2) Secondly, the Quran does NOT describe how Eve was created. In fact, the Quran does not even her “Eveâ€. The Quran mentions Adam’s “wife†but does not say how and when she was created. (Sura 2:35)
Salam1: (1) I have heard refutations of this. I will post them as I find them. (2) Correct, her name is Hawwa in the Hadith and is told of in the hadith.
Gary: (1) No need to post Islamic polemic sites. The Quran says it all. (2) So again, the Hadith has more information than the Quran! I thought that you do not believe anything which is in the Hadith but not in the Quran.
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Salam1: Moses and his people were muslims since they submitted to God.
Gary: Moses and his people were never called muslims. Muhammad made that up.
Salam1: I disagree. A muslim is one who submits to God. Moses pbuh submitted to God. Note: Gary I understand according to your religion that he was a Jew. This is part of my religion, and I believe that God told us this, and no human being "made it up".
Gary: Your religion does not tie up with facts. Moses was never called a Muslim. The Jews were never called Muslims. Those are the facts. Logically, Muhammad’s claim is also false. If the Jews and Moses were “Muslims†(submitters to God), what happened when they turned from God as they did many times….. did they cease being “Muslimsâ€? There is NO record before Muhammad that Jews were ever called “muslimsâ€.
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Salam1: Only certain humans are given miracles, and usually for prophetic (sic) purposes.
Gary: Muhammad performed no miracles.
Salam1: I disagree, He pbuh was able to make water flow from his fingertips for his people to do abluation. (sic)
Gary: Again, you believe the Hadith over the Quran. In his Quran, Muhammad says that Allah did not give Muhammad power to perform miracles (Sura 6:109-112; 17:92-97; 18:10; 29:49-50), that he was a mortal like anyone else (Sura 41:6) and that he was an ordinary man, (Sura 17:90-96).
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saved4life: Was Jesus sinless?
Salam1: In our faith, he (Jesus) was a Prophet, a man, and since he was a man... It is impossible not to sin.
Gary: (1) The Bible tells us that Jesus was the only person who ever lived who was entirely without sin. The Bible charges all men, from Adam onwards, as being under the power of sin and as having sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. Only Jesus is excepted. “He committed no sin, no guile was found on his lips.†(2) The Quran, too, appears to support the concept that Jesus was without sin. When the angel Jibril (Gabriel) appeared to Mary to announce her conception of Jesus, he said “I am only a messenger of your Lord, to announce to you a faultless son.â€
Salam1: (1) Again, that is part of your faith. (2) Please tell me exactly what ayat (verse) you found this on. Then we can talk.
Gary: (1) Yes, it is part of what is in the Bible. Jesus was born of a virgin (in both the Bible and the Quran). Jesus was and is the Messiah (in both the Bible and the Quran). He was greater than all the prophets. He was the Word of God. Jesus performed many miracles (in both the Bible and the Quran). Jesus was sinless (in both the Bible and the Quran). (2) The Quran says: “I am only a messenger of your Lord, to announce to you a faultless son.†(Surah 19:19).
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saved4life: Is there a Heaven with many virgins?
Salam1: Obviously reading apologetic material, what is your definition of Heaven? Mine is a place that has things not heard of and you can do whatever you wish.
Gary: (1) That explains why there are rivers of wine in Islamic “paradise†but wine is not allowed on earth! (2) As for those “virginsâ€, the Quran says: In them will be fair (Maidens), good, beautiful….. Maidens restrained (as to their glances), in (goodly) pavilions….. Whom no man or Jinn before them has touched….. (Sura 55:70,72,74)
Salam1: (1) Of course Gary!! Need I remind you that it is Heaven! A far beyond perfect place! (2) We are talking about Heaven here. Your every wish will be granted here (inshallah).
Gary: (1) So Islam thinks that what is BAD on earth is GOOD in “paradiseâ€. (2) We are not talking about heaven. We are talking about the Islamic concept of “paradise.†Show me the Sura in the Quran that says that “your every wish will be granted in paradiseâ€.
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saved4life: Do women get virgins, too?
Salam1: Its heaven right?? Heaven is a place where your wish, is always granted.
Gary: (1) There is no mention of virgins for women in “paradise.†(2) In fact, in the Hadith, Muhammad said that the majority of people in hell are women.
Salam1: (1) The Quran says that the "belivers" (sic) will enter paradise. Of course women are among the belivers (sic), and will be granted their heart's desire. Gary, our concept of heaven is a place far from what we can even try to visiualize in our heads. (2) Where did you find this hadith?
Gary: (1) Virgins are mentioned for males. There is no mention of virgins for females. The Quran is quite specific. It describes “paradise†several times. It does NOT say that “paradise†is a “place far from what we can even try to visiualize in our heads.†If it does, please reference the Sura which says that. (2) Sahih Al-Bukhari: Volume 1, Book 2, Number 28: Narrated Ibn 'Abbas: The Prophet said: "I was shown the Hell-fire and that the majority of its dwellers were women who were ungrateful." …..
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C
Crucifix
Guest
For the record I am of no particular religion. I suppose I have leanings towards Christianity and even some Buddhist philosophies, but I do not consider myself either.
I would just like, Salam, to make a comment on this topic, and all I say is with due respect.
Gary Bee seems to have brought up some very strong points in his posts, and although he is very blunt about it, they are good points none the less. One in particular you have failed to defend, in my eyes, adequately.
I know little about Islam, and have perhaps learnt more about its doctrines by reading through your posts and Islamic apologetic sites you provide: thankyou for these, they are interesting and enlightening. However there is one area that you seem to contradict yourself on and haven't shown a good answer as to why you do this. It concerns these "Hadiths". You seem to accept the "nice bits" from certain Hadiths, but reject other, less complimentary doctrines from other or, indeed, the same Hadiths that you accept doctrine from! When Gary mentions a certain teaching or passage from a Hadith that is quite obviously either a.) contradictory to Islamic claims or b.) highly unfavourable (cruelty, womens rights or lack thereof) you reject it as not being directly from the Qu'ran itself, but you often make reference to passages from Hadiths that show Islam in a more favourable light. It seems to me this is a major contradiction in your argument, and is a sad display of hypocracy, if I may be so blunt. You cannot pick the best bits of your religion and leave out the rest, because if Islam is the one true religion, the ALL of it must be true: not just the niceties. So, I would advice you either a.) reject all the Hadiths, b.) accept all the Hadiths or c.) find a sound reason, doctrinally, to accept some parts and reject others.
Also, as a side note, your idea of heaven, being able to (and I paraphrase you)- "do as you wish and have every desire" and being "incomprehensible to all people" contradicts, it seems, direct Qu'ranic descriptions of heaven, with so many virgins and rivers of wine (ironic as alcohol is taboo in Islamic culture). So one may sin in heaven? Does that not reject the perfectness of the nature of God, allowing sinful acts to be commited in his domain because the one in question demands such? Is God therefore at the mercy of the dead?
Those are just my observations, and I apologise if I have said anything insulting or degrading to Islam. I am just saying it as I see and understand it.
I would just like, Salam, to make a comment on this topic, and all I say is with due respect.
Gary Bee seems to have brought up some very strong points in his posts, and although he is very blunt about it, they are good points none the less. One in particular you have failed to defend, in my eyes, adequately.
I know little about Islam, and have perhaps learnt more about its doctrines by reading through your posts and Islamic apologetic sites you provide: thankyou for these, they are interesting and enlightening. However there is one area that you seem to contradict yourself on and haven't shown a good answer as to why you do this. It concerns these "Hadiths". You seem to accept the "nice bits" from certain Hadiths, but reject other, less complimentary doctrines from other or, indeed, the same Hadiths that you accept doctrine from! When Gary mentions a certain teaching or passage from a Hadith that is quite obviously either a.) contradictory to Islamic claims or b.) highly unfavourable (cruelty, womens rights or lack thereof) you reject it as not being directly from the Qu'ran itself, but you often make reference to passages from Hadiths that show Islam in a more favourable light. It seems to me this is a major contradiction in your argument, and is a sad display of hypocracy, if I may be so blunt. You cannot pick the best bits of your religion and leave out the rest, because if Islam is the one true religion, the ALL of it must be true: not just the niceties. So, I would advice you either a.) reject all the Hadiths, b.) accept all the Hadiths or c.) find a sound reason, doctrinally, to accept some parts and reject others.
Also, as a side note, your idea of heaven, being able to (and I paraphrase you)- "do as you wish and have every desire" and being "incomprehensible to all people" contradicts, it seems, direct Qu'ranic descriptions of heaven, with so many virgins and rivers of wine (ironic as alcohol is taboo in Islamic culture). So one may sin in heaven? Does that not reject the perfectness of the nature of God, allowing sinful acts to be commited in his domain because the one in question demands such? Is God therefore at the mercy of the dead?
Those are just my observations, and I apologise if I have said anything insulting or degrading to Islam. I am just saying it as I see and understand it.
E
evanman
Guest
No religion is the truth!--That includes "Christianity"
The ONLY truth is found in a person--Jesus Christ, the Son of the Living God!
The ONLY truth is found in a person--Jesus Christ, the Son of the Living God!
S
Salam1
Guest
On those who believe and work deeds of righteousness, will (Allah) Most Gracious bestow love. (Quran 19:96).
Gary, Allah SWT has given us free will. And some people reject that. What happens in YOUR religion on the Day of Judgement? What will happen to the pagans, sinners, etc. They will burn in hell, maybe?
If you don't accept God as one and only then you fail. Simple as that.
No need in you trying to understand, you brain says it all.
I really do not know if any questions arise in the minds of my readers, after looking at these verses again. But as soon as I looked at these verses with the knowledge that the same book which is giving us the above information, has also told us that the total time of creation is six days, I realized that these verses are not giving the number of days involved in three creations, but only two. It is not the earth, the mountains (etc.) and the skies that are under consideration, but only the earth and the skies. (The Reader is requested to have a look at these verses again, and see it for himself/herself). The portion: "And He set upon the earth mountains, towering high above it. He blessed it and provided it with sustenance for all those in need, alike, in four days", mentions only a continuation and finalisation of the process of the creation of the earth.
The realization of this fact solved the problem completely. The verses, as I saw them now, were quite clear. The Qur'an in these verses was actually saying that the basic structure of the earth was created in two (2) days. Later on, mountains, seas and other paraphernalia required for the sustenance of living organisms on this basic structure of the earth were designed and created. And all this work (including the creation of the earth and the designing and provision of the paraphernalia) was completed in a total of four (4) days. After this, the skies were modeled and seven heavens were created in two (2) days. Thus the total time involved in the creation of the earth and the heavens totalled to six (6) days -- not eight (8) days. I do acknowledge that if the Qur'an had not mentioned at other places that the creation of the heavens and the earth involved six (6) days, the total process could have been taken to add upto eight (8) days. But keeping in mind that the Qur'an has mentioned elsewhere that the total process involved six (6) days, there is nothing wrong, linguistically, to say that the total period involved in designing and creating the earth (because the mountains etc. are a part of that earth) took four (4) days. While that of the skies involved two (2) days. Thus the total number of days in the designing and creation of the earth and the skies involved six (6) days.
The verses now seemed quite clear in their message. I thanked my Lord, and to show my gratitude fell down in prostration.
Thanks to Mr. Amjad for clearing that up.
I don't belive in it if it goes against the Quran. That hadith does not go against it, it merely clearifies it.
According to YOUR religion he was not. However, he did pray to One God. And anyone in the history of humanity that submitted themselfs to One God, are muslims.
I will answer your other questions later.
G
Gary
Guest
Is Islam true? No!!..
Are all religions true? No……
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Salam1: We just don't know, its not up to us to decide. But to me, if someone belives (sic) in One God (that has no partners) all the prophets, books, angels, in the afterlife, good works...then they are doing what ever they can to be on the straight path, and that is what counts.
Gary: You cannot WORK your way to heaven.
Salam1: You are obviously Protestant, correct?
Gary: I follow what the Bible says and what Jesus taught. Jesus affirmed that every person needs God’s grace. Jesus’ disciples said to him, “Who then can be saved?†Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible†(Matthew 19:25-26). All through the Gospel of John, Jesus presented only one way to obtain God’s gracious salvation: “Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life†(John 3:36; 3:16; 5:24; Mark 1:15). Paul taught the same concept; salvation by grace through faith, affirming, “It is by grace you have been saved, through faith - and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God - not by works, so that no one can boast†(Ephesians 2:8-9; Titus 3:5-7).
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Salam1: I am God's creation, but God loves me more then a father would love his child.
Gary: Where does it say in the Quran that Allah LOVES you more than a father loves his child?
Salam1: It doesn't, however that is how I personally feel, there is a hadith hitting close to this.
Gary: So you believe something which is NOT in the Quran but only in the Hadith?
Salam1: On those who believe and work deeds of righteousness, will (Allah) Most Gracious bestow love. (Quran 19:96).
Gary: Yes, Allah (unlike God) only loves those who believe and work deeds of righteousness. Imagine if these where the conditions under which YOU loved your child. Can you see the difference? In fact, you have PROVEN that Allah does NOT love you more than a father loves a child. Thank you.
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Salam1: I can't think of a religion that so strongly supports monotheism other then Islam.
Gary: Islam, Judaism and Christianity are all monotheistic. The issue with Islamic monotheism is that it makes Allah the author of evil.
Salam1: (1) Judaism and Chrisitainty (sic) are Monotheistic, yes. But Islam is very anti-pagan. There are a ton of passages in the Quran that ask men to stop worhiping (sic) idols and multiple Gods. (2) Calling my God "the author of evil" is childish and naive. Lets leave name calling to the toddlers.
Gary: (1) If Islam is so anti-pagan, why do you have so many pagan rituals in your religion? (2) Allah is the author of evil. The Qur’an frankly admits that Allah could have saved all, but did not desire to do so. Sura 32:13 declares: "Had we so willed We should have brought every soul its guidance, but true is that saying of Mine: ‘I shall assuredly fill up Gehenna with jinn and men together."’ It is extremely difficult to understand how, holding such a view, one can consistently maintain any kind of human responsibility. The logical problem with Islamic determinism is that even Muslim commentators are forced to acknowledge that Allah performs contradictory actions. Islamicist Ignaz Golziher summarizes the situation, "There is probably no other point of doctrine on which equally contradictory teachings can be derived from the Qur’an as on this one" (Golziher, 78). One Muslim scholar notes, "The Qur’anic doctrine of Predestination is very explicit though not very logical" (Stanton, 54-55). For example, Allah is "the One Who leads astray," as well as "the One Who guides." He is "the One Who brings damage," as also does Satan. He is "the Bringer-down," "the Compeller" or "Tyrant," and "the Haughty." When describing people, all these concepts have an evil sense.
Salam1: Gary, Allah SWT has given us free will. And some people reject that. What happens in YOUR religion on the Day of Judgement? What will happen to the pagans, sinners, etc. They will burn in hell, maybe? If you don't accept God as one and only then you fail. Simple as that.
Gary: Salam1, we discussing the author of evil. I have put forward the argument that, in Islam, Allah is the author of evil. I have used the Quran to show that fact.
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saved4life: Did your God create the world in 6 days, and make Eve out of Adam's rib?
Salam1: True.
Gary: (1) Actually not true at all. In the Quran, Sura 7:54, 10:3, 11:7, and 25:59 clearly state that Allah created "the heavens and the earth" in six days. But in Sura 41:9-12 the detailed description of the creation procedure adds up to eight days. (2) Secondly, the Quran does NOT describe how Eve was created. In fact, the Quran does not even her “Eveâ€. The Quran mentions Adam’s “wife†but does not say how and when she was created. (Sura 2:35)
Salam1: (1) I have heard refutations of this. I will post them as I find them. (2) Correct, her name is Hawwa in the Hadith and is told of in the hadith.
Gary: (1) No need to post Islamic polemic sites. The Quran says it all. (2) So again, the Hadith has more information than the Quran! I thought that you do not believe anything which is in the Hadith but not in the Quran.
Salam1: (1) ---(cut-n-paste from polemic Islamic website)--- (2) I don't belive (sic) in it if it goes against the Quran. That hadith does not go against it, it merely clearifies (sic) it.
Gary: (1) Two days for the creation of the earth, then four days to fill the earth with mountains, blessings and nourishment for all its inhabitants, and in the end two more days to create the seven heavens and create the stars in them. This adds up to 2+4+2 = 8 days in contradiction to the 6 days mentioned in the other verses. (2) I have shown you many Hadith which do not go against the Quran but merely show you the true Muhammad. I thought the Quran was clear. Why do you need the Hadith to clarify the Quran?
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Salam1: Moses and his people were muslims since they submitted to God.
Gary: Moses and his people were never called muslims. Muhammad made that up.
Salam1: I disagree. A muslim is one who submits to God. Moses pbuh submitted to God. Note: Gary I understand according to your religion that he was a Jew. This is part of my religion, and I believe that God told us this, and no human being "made it up".
Gary: Your religion does not tie up with facts. Moses was never called a Muslim. The Jews were never called Muslims. Those are the facts. Logically, Muhammad’s claim is also false. If the Jews and Moses were “Muslims†(submitters to God), what happened when they turned from God as they did many times….. did they cease being “Muslimsâ€? There is NO record before Muhammad that Jews were ever called “muslimsâ€.
Salam1: According to YOUR religion he was not.
Gary: According to facts (outside of both Islam and Christianity and Judaism), Moses and the Jews were NEVER called muslims.
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Salam1: Only certain humans are given miracles, and usually for prophetic (sic) purposes.
Gary: Muhammad performed no miracles.
Salam1: I disagree, He pbuh was able to make water flow from his fingertips for his people to do abluation. (sic)
Gary: Again, you believe the Hadith over the Quran. In his Quran, Muhammad says that Allah did not give Muhammad power to perform miracles (Sura 6:109-112; 17:92-97; 18:10; 29:49-50), that he was a mortal like anyone else (Sura 41:6) and that he was an ordinary man, (Sura 17:90-96).
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saved4life: Was Jesus sinless?
Salam1: In our faith, he (Jesus) was a Prophet, a man, and since he was a man... It is impossible not to sin.
Gary: (1) The Bible tells us that Jesus was the only person who ever lived who was entirely without sin. The Bible charges all men, from Adam onwards, as being under the power of sin and as having sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. Only Jesus is excepted. “He committed no sin, no guile was found on his lips.†(2) The Quran, too, appears to support the concept that Jesus was without sin. When the angel Jibril (Gabriel) appeared to Mary to announce her conception of Jesus, he said “I am only a messenger of your Lord, to announce to you a faultless son.â€
Salam1: (1) Again, that is part of your faith. (2) Please tell me exactly what ayat (verse) you found this on. Then we can talk.
Gary: (1) Yes, it is part of what is in the Bible. Jesus was born of a virgin (in both the Bible and the Quran). Jesus was and is the Messiah (in both the Bible and the Quran). He was greater than all the prophets. He was the Word of God. Jesus performed many miracles (in both the Bible and the Quran). Jesus was sinless (in both the Bible and the Quran). (2) The Quran says: “I am only a messenger of your Lord, to announce to you a faultless son.†(Surah 19:19).
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saved4life: Is there a Heaven with many virgins?
Salam1: Obviously reading apologetic material, what is your definition of Heaven? Mine is a place that has things not heard of and you can do whatever you wish.
Gary: (1) That explains why there are rivers of wine in Islamic “paradise†but wine is not allowed on earth! (2) As for those “virginsâ€, the Quran says: In them will be fair (Maidens), good, beautiful….. Maidens restrained (as to their glances), in (goodly) pavilions….. Whom no man or Jinn before them has touched….. (Sura 55:70,72,74)
Salam1: (1) Of course Gary!! Need I remind you that it is Heaven! A far beyond perfect place! (2) We are talking about Heaven here. Your every wish will be granted here (inshallah).
Gary: (1) So Islam thinks that what is BAD on earth is GOOD in “paradiseâ€. (2) We are not talking about heaven. We are talking about the Islamic concept of “paradise.†Show me the Sura in the Quran that says that “your every wish will be granted in paradiseâ€.
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saved4life: Do women get virgins, too?
Salam1: Its heaven right?? Heaven is a place where your wish, is always granted.
Gary: (1) There is no mention of virgins for women in “paradise.†(2) In fact, in the Hadith, Muhammad said that the majority of people in hell are women.
Salam1: (1) The Quran says that the "belivers" (sic) will enter paradise. Of course women are among the belivers (sic), and will be granted their heart's desire. Gary, our concept of heaven is a place far from what we can even try to visiualize in our heads. (2) Where did you find this hadith?
Gary: (1) Virgins are mentioned for males. There is no mention of virgins for females. The Quran is quite specific. It describes “paradise†several times. It does NOT say that “paradise†is a “place far from what we can even try to visiualize in our heads.†If it does, please reference the Sura which says that. (2) Sahih Al-Bukhari: Volume 1, Book 2, Number 28: Narrated Ibn 'Abbas: The Prophet said: "I was shown the Hell-fire and that the majority of its dwellers were women who were ungrateful." …..
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Are all religions true? No……
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Salam1: We just don't know, its not up to us to decide. But to me, if someone belives (sic) in One God (that has no partners) all the prophets, books, angels, in the afterlife, good works...then they are doing what ever they can to be on the straight path, and that is what counts.
Gary: You cannot WORK your way to heaven.
Salam1: You are obviously Protestant, correct?
Gary: I follow what the Bible says and what Jesus taught. Jesus affirmed that every person needs God’s grace. Jesus’ disciples said to him, “Who then can be saved?†Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible†(Matthew 19:25-26). All through the Gospel of John, Jesus presented only one way to obtain God’s gracious salvation: “Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life†(John 3:36; 3:16; 5:24; Mark 1:15). Paul taught the same concept; salvation by grace through faith, affirming, “It is by grace you have been saved, through faith - and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God - not by works, so that no one can boast†(Ephesians 2:8-9; Titus 3:5-7).
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Salam1: I am God's creation, but God loves me more then a father would love his child.
Gary: Where does it say in the Quran that Allah LOVES you more than a father loves his child?
Salam1: It doesn't, however that is how I personally feel, there is a hadith hitting close to this.
Gary: So you believe something which is NOT in the Quran but only in the Hadith?
Salam1: On those who believe and work deeds of righteousness, will (Allah) Most Gracious bestow love. (Quran 19:96).
Gary: Yes, Allah (unlike God) only loves those who believe and work deeds of righteousness. Imagine if these where the conditions under which YOU loved your child. Can you see the difference? In fact, you have PROVEN that Allah does NOT love you more than a father loves a child. Thank you.
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Salam1: I can't think of a religion that so strongly supports monotheism other then Islam.
Gary: Islam, Judaism and Christianity are all monotheistic. The issue with Islamic monotheism is that it makes Allah the author of evil.
Salam1: (1) Judaism and Chrisitainty (sic) are Monotheistic, yes. But Islam is very anti-pagan. There are a ton of passages in the Quran that ask men to stop worhiping (sic) idols and multiple Gods. (2) Calling my God "the author of evil" is childish and naive. Lets leave name calling to the toddlers.
Gary: (1) If Islam is so anti-pagan, why do you have so many pagan rituals in your religion? (2) Allah is the author of evil. The Qur’an frankly admits that Allah could have saved all, but did not desire to do so. Sura 32:13 declares: "Had we so willed We should have brought every soul its guidance, but true is that saying of Mine: ‘I shall assuredly fill up Gehenna with jinn and men together."’ It is extremely difficult to understand how, holding such a view, one can consistently maintain any kind of human responsibility. The logical problem with Islamic determinism is that even Muslim commentators are forced to acknowledge that Allah performs contradictory actions. Islamicist Ignaz Golziher summarizes the situation, "There is probably no other point of doctrine on which equally contradictory teachings can be derived from the Qur’an as on this one" (Golziher, 78). One Muslim scholar notes, "The Qur’anic doctrine of Predestination is very explicit though not very logical" (Stanton, 54-55). For example, Allah is "the One Who leads astray," as well as "the One Who guides." He is "the One Who brings damage," as also does Satan. He is "the Bringer-down," "the Compeller" or "Tyrant," and "the Haughty." When describing people, all these concepts have an evil sense.
Salam1: Gary, Allah SWT has given us free will. And some people reject that. What happens in YOUR religion on the Day of Judgement? What will happen to the pagans, sinners, etc. They will burn in hell, maybe? If you don't accept God as one and only then you fail. Simple as that.
Gary: Salam1, we discussing the author of evil. I have put forward the argument that, in Islam, Allah is the author of evil. I have used the Quran to show that fact.
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saved4life: Did your God create the world in 6 days, and make Eve out of Adam's rib?
Salam1: True.
Gary: (1) Actually not true at all. In the Quran, Sura 7:54, 10:3, 11:7, and 25:59 clearly state that Allah created "the heavens and the earth" in six days. But in Sura 41:9-12 the detailed description of the creation procedure adds up to eight days. (2) Secondly, the Quran does NOT describe how Eve was created. In fact, the Quran does not even her “Eveâ€. The Quran mentions Adam’s “wife†but does not say how and when she was created. (Sura 2:35)
Salam1: (1) I have heard refutations of this. I will post them as I find them. (2) Correct, her name is Hawwa in the Hadith and is told of in the hadith.
Gary: (1) No need to post Islamic polemic sites. The Quran says it all. (2) So again, the Hadith has more information than the Quran! I thought that you do not believe anything which is in the Hadith but not in the Quran.
Salam1: (1) ---(cut-n-paste from polemic Islamic website)--- (2) I don't belive (sic) in it if it goes against the Quran. That hadith does not go against it, it merely clearifies (sic) it.
Gary: (1) Two days for the creation of the earth, then four days to fill the earth with mountains, blessings and nourishment for all its inhabitants, and in the end two more days to create the seven heavens and create the stars in them. This adds up to 2+4+2 = 8 days in contradiction to the 6 days mentioned in the other verses. (2) I have shown you many Hadith which do not go against the Quran but merely show you the true Muhammad. I thought the Quran was clear. Why do you need the Hadith to clarify the Quran?
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Salam1: Moses and his people were muslims since they submitted to God.
Gary: Moses and his people were never called muslims. Muhammad made that up.
Salam1: I disagree. A muslim is one who submits to God. Moses pbuh submitted to God. Note: Gary I understand according to your religion that he was a Jew. This is part of my religion, and I believe that God told us this, and no human being "made it up".
Gary: Your religion does not tie up with facts. Moses was never called a Muslim. The Jews were never called Muslims. Those are the facts. Logically, Muhammad’s claim is also false. If the Jews and Moses were “Muslims†(submitters to God), what happened when they turned from God as they did many times….. did they cease being “Muslimsâ€? There is NO record before Muhammad that Jews were ever called “muslimsâ€.
Salam1: According to YOUR religion he was not.
Gary: According to facts (outside of both Islam and Christianity and Judaism), Moses and the Jews were NEVER called muslims.
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Salam1: Only certain humans are given miracles, and usually for prophetic (sic) purposes.
Gary: Muhammad performed no miracles.
Salam1: I disagree, He pbuh was able to make water flow from his fingertips for his people to do abluation. (sic)
Gary: Again, you believe the Hadith over the Quran. In his Quran, Muhammad says that Allah did not give Muhammad power to perform miracles (Sura 6:109-112; 17:92-97; 18:10; 29:49-50), that he was a mortal like anyone else (Sura 41:6) and that he was an ordinary man, (Sura 17:90-96).
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saved4life: Was Jesus sinless?
Salam1: In our faith, he (Jesus) was a Prophet, a man, and since he was a man... It is impossible not to sin.
Gary: (1) The Bible tells us that Jesus was the only person who ever lived who was entirely without sin. The Bible charges all men, from Adam onwards, as being under the power of sin and as having sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. Only Jesus is excepted. “He committed no sin, no guile was found on his lips.†(2) The Quran, too, appears to support the concept that Jesus was without sin. When the angel Jibril (Gabriel) appeared to Mary to announce her conception of Jesus, he said “I am only a messenger of your Lord, to announce to you a faultless son.â€
Salam1: (1) Again, that is part of your faith. (2) Please tell me exactly what ayat (verse) you found this on. Then we can talk.
Gary: (1) Yes, it is part of what is in the Bible. Jesus was born of a virgin (in both the Bible and the Quran). Jesus was and is the Messiah (in both the Bible and the Quran). He was greater than all the prophets. He was the Word of God. Jesus performed many miracles (in both the Bible and the Quran). Jesus was sinless (in both the Bible and the Quran). (2) The Quran says: “I am only a messenger of your Lord, to announce to you a faultless son.†(Surah 19:19).
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saved4life: Is there a Heaven with many virgins?
Salam1: Obviously reading apologetic material, what is your definition of Heaven? Mine is a place that has things not heard of and you can do whatever you wish.
Gary: (1) That explains why there are rivers of wine in Islamic “paradise†but wine is not allowed on earth! (2) As for those “virginsâ€, the Quran says: In them will be fair (Maidens), good, beautiful….. Maidens restrained (as to their glances), in (goodly) pavilions….. Whom no man or Jinn before them has touched….. (Sura 55:70,72,74)
Salam1: (1) Of course Gary!! Need I remind you that it is Heaven! A far beyond perfect place! (2) We are talking about Heaven here. Your every wish will be granted here (inshallah).
Gary: (1) So Islam thinks that what is BAD on earth is GOOD in “paradiseâ€. (2) We are not talking about heaven. We are talking about the Islamic concept of “paradise.†Show me the Sura in the Quran that says that “your every wish will be granted in paradiseâ€.
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saved4life: Do women get virgins, too?
Salam1: Its heaven right?? Heaven is a place where your wish, is always granted.
Gary: (1) There is no mention of virgins for women in “paradise.†(2) In fact, in the Hadith, Muhammad said that the majority of people in hell are women.
Salam1: (1) The Quran says that the "belivers" (sic) will enter paradise. Of course women are among the belivers (sic), and will be granted their heart's desire. Gary, our concept of heaven is a place far from what we can even try to visiualize in our heads. (2) Where did you find this hadith?
Gary: (1) Virgins are mentioned for males. There is no mention of virgins for females. The Quran is quite specific. It describes “paradise†several times. It does NOT say that “paradise†is a “place far from what we can even try to visiualize in our heads.†If it does, please reference the Sura which says that. (2) Sahih Al-Bukhari: Volume 1, Book 2, Number 28: Narrated Ibn 'Abbas: The Prophet said: "I was shown the Hell-fire and that the majority of its dwellers were women who were ungrateful." …..
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S
Salam1
Guest
1. According to my religion, good works lead to paradise. End of story. Its that simple. Beliveing also leads to paradise, they are both necessary. Boasting isn't moral.
2.
Gary, my God has given us the oppurtunity to good good or do bad. People who do bad, are not worth meriting. On the contrast those who do good, are worth meritying. Don't confuse your teachings with mine. And I am pleased to say that I belive in One God, not a trinity.
Nope, I have seen hadiths that say something simliar to this. BTW, Allah SWT loves me, and I don't need you to tell me otherwise. God is above us.
Such as?? Need I remind you of Easter? The bunny and eggs? Isn't that pagan?
Quran 16:125
Invite (all) to the Way of thy Lord with wisdom and beautiful preaching; and argue with them in ways that are best and most gracious: for thy Lord knoweth best, who have strayed from His Path, and who receive guidance.
We can't to ^ then Im not going to bother talking to you, as it is a waste of time.
Nice job of mixing up points.
Point #1 was about 41:9-12, Point #2 was about Hawwa.
a. In 41:9-12, we are talking about TWO things, Earth and the Sky.
Earth takes up 4 days, Sky takes up 2 days. 4+2=6
b. Hawwa is mentioned in the Hadith, clear as a bell.
Come to thing of it. Moses pbuh wasn't ever called pious, joyful, glad. Those are English words.
Muslim is arabic for "submitter to God". And Im sure 100% he was a "submitter to God"
Every Prophet was a Muslim.
I read these Ayats, none of them say "Muhammad says that Allah did not give Muhammad power to perform miracles"
Please show me where you found this.
Funny trick. Pickthal's transalation differs big time from Yusuf Ali's
He said: "Nay, I am only a messenger from thy Lord, (to announce) to thee the gift of a holy son.
Its paradise...wake up, you can do whatever man.
Can you repost this? I would like to examine them again.
2.
Gary, my God has given us the oppurtunity to good good or do bad. People who do bad, are not worth meriting. On the contrast those who do good, are worth meritying. Don't confuse your teachings with mine. And I am pleased to say that I belive in One God, not a trinity.
Nope, I have seen hadiths that say something simliar to this. BTW, Allah SWT loves me, and I don't need you to tell me otherwise. God is above us.
Such as?? Need I remind you of Easter? The bunny and eggs? Isn't that pagan?
Quran 16:125
Invite (all) to the Way of thy Lord with wisdom and beautiful preaching; and argue with them in ways that are best and most gracious: for thy Lord knoweth best, who have strayed from His Path, and who receive guidance.
We can't to ^ then Im not going to bother talking to you, as it is a waste of time.
Nice job of mixing up points.
Point #1 was about 41:9-12, Point #2 was about Hawwa.
a. In 41:9-12, we are talking about TWO things, Earth and the Sky.
Earth takes up 4 days, Sky takes up 2 days. 4+2=6
b. Hawwa is mentioned in the Hadith, clear as a bell.
Come to thing of it. Moses pbuh wasn't ever called pious, joyful, glad. Those are English words.
Muslim is arabic for "submitter to God". And Im sure 100% he was a "submitter to God"
Every Prophet was a Muslim.
I read these Ayats, none of them say "Muhammad says that Allah did not give Muhammad power to perform miracles"
Please show me where you found this.
Funny trick. Pickthal's transalation differs big time from Yusuf Ali's
He said: "Nay, I am only a messenger from thy Lord, (to announce) to thee the gift of a holy son.
Its paradise...wake up, you can do whatever man.
Can you repost this? I would like to examine them again.
S
Salam1
Guest
And in addition...
“Trays of gold and cups will be passed round them; (there will be) therein all that inner‑selves could desire, and all that eyes could delight in and you will abide therein foreverâ€
[al-Zukhruf 43:71]
So, as you can see, everyone will rejoice in Paradise.
“Trays of gold and cups will be passed round them; (there will be) therein all that inner‑selves could desire, and all that eyes could delight in and you will abide therein foreverâ€
[al-Zukhruf 43:71]
So, as you can see, everyone will rejoice in Paradise.
S
Salam1
Guest
Also...
The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “Allaah says: ‘I have prepared for My righteous slaves that which no eye has seen, no ear has heard and it has never crossed the mind of man.’ Recite if you wish: ‘No person knows what is kept hidden for them of joy as a reward for what they used to do’ [al-Sajdah 32:17 – interpretation of the meaning].â€
Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 3072; Muslim, 2824
This is found in the Hadith.
The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “Allaah says: ‘I have prepared for My righteous slaves that which no eye has seen, no ear has heard and it has never crossed the mind of man.’ Recite if you wish: ‘No person knows what is kept hidden for them of joy as a reward for what they used to do’ [al-Sajdah 32:17 – interpretation of the meaning].â€
Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 3072; Muslim, 2824
This is found in the Hadith.
S
saved4life
Guest
:
S
Salam1
Guest
S
saved4life
Guest
G
Gary
Guest
Allah is the author of evil...
Are all religions true? No……
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Salam1: We just don't know, its not up to us to decide. But to me, if someone belives (sic) in One God (that has no partners) all the prophets, books, angels, in the afterlife, good works...then they are doing what ever they can to be on the straight path, and that is what counts.
Gary: You cannot WORK your way to heaven.
Salam1: You are obviously Protestant, correct?
Gary: I follow what the Bible says and what Jesus taught. Jesus affirmed that every person needs God’s grace. Jesus’ disciples said to him, “Who then can be saved?†Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible†(Matthew 19:25-26). All through the Gospel of John, Jesus presented only one way to obtain God’s gracious salvation: “Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life†(John 3:36; 3:16; 5:24; Mark 1:15). Paul taught the same concept; salvation by grace through faith, affirming, “It is by grace you have been saved, through faith - and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God - not by works, so that no one can boast†(Ephesians 2:8-9; Titus 3:5-7).
Salam1: According to my religion, good works lead to paradise. End of story. Its that simple. Beliveing (sic) also leads to paradise, they are both necessary. Boasting isn't moral.
Gary: In Islam there is NO assurance of you reaching “paradiseâ€Â. The only sure way is to die while fighting Allah’s cause.
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Salam1: I am God's creation, but God loves me more then a father would love his child.
Gary: Where does it say in the Quran that Allah LOVES you more than a father loves his child?
Salam1: It doesn't, however that is how I personally feel, there is a hadith hitting close to this.
Gary: So you believe something which is NOT in the Quran but only in the Hadith?
Salam1: On those who believe and work deeds of righteousness, will (Allah) Most Gracious bestow love. (Quran 19:96).
Gary: Yes, Allah (unlike God) only loves those who believe and work deeds of righteousness. Imagine if these where the conditions under which YOU loved your child. Can you see the difference? In fact, you have PROVEN that Allah does NOT love you more than a father loves a child. Thank you.
Salam1: Gary, my God has given us the opportunity (sic) to good good or do bad. People who do bad, are not worth meriting. On the contrast those who do good, are worth meritying (sic). Don't confuse your teachings with mine. And I am pleased to say that I belive (sic) in One God, not a trinity.
Gary: I have shown, conclusively, that your own HUMAN standard of “love of a father for his child†is GREATER than the love Allah shows for you.
Salam1: Nope, I have seen hadiths that say something similar (sic) to this. BTW, Allah SWT loves me, and I don't need you to tell me otherwise. God is above us.
Gary: You have not shown (from either the Quran or the Hadith) that “Allah loves you like a father loves his childâ€Â. That was your original claim. It has still not been proven.
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Salam1: I can't think of a religion that so strongly supports monotheism other then Islam.
Gary: Islam, Judaism and Christianity are all monotheistic. The issue with Islamic monotheism is that it makes Allah the author of evil.
Salam1: (1) Judaism and Chrisitainty (sic) are Monotheistic, yes. But Islam is very anti-pagan. There are a ton of passages in the Quran that ask men to stop worhiping (sic) idols and multiple Gods. (2) Calling my God "the author of evil" is childish and naive. Lets leave name calling to the toddlers.
Gary: (1) If Islam is so anti-pagan, why do you have so many pagan rituals in your religion? (2) Allah is the author of evil. The Qur’an frankly admits that Allah could have saved all, but did not desire to do so. Sura 32:13 declares: "Had we so willed We should have brought every soul its guidance, but true is that saying of Mine: ‘I shall assuredly fill up Gehenna with jinn and men together."’ It is extremely difficult to understand how, holding such a view, one can consistently maintain any kind of human responsibility. The logical problem with Islamic determinism is that even Muslim commentators are forced to acknowledge that Allah performs contradictory actions. Islamicist Ignaz Golziher summarizes the situation, "There is probably no other point of doctrine on which equally contradictory teachings can be derived from the Qur’an as on this one" (Golziher, 78). One Muslim scholar notes, "The Qur’anic doctrine of Predestination is very explicit though not very logical" (Stanton, 54-55). For example, Allah is "the One Who leads astray," as well as "the One Who guides." He is "the One Who brings damage," as also does Satan. He is "the Bringer-down," "the Compeller" or "Tyrant," and "the Haughty." When describing people, all these concepts have an evil sense.
Salam1: Gary, Allah SWT has given us free will. And some people reject that. What happens in YOUR religion on the Day of Judgement? What will happen to the pagans, sinners, etc. They will burn in hell, maybe? If you don't accept God as one and only then you fail. Simple as that.
Gary: Salam1, we discussing the author of evil. I have put forward the argument that, in Islam, Allah is the author of evil. I have used the Quran to show that fact.
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saved4life: Did your God create the world in 6 days, and make Eve out of Adam's rib?
Salam1: True.
Gary: (1) Actually not true at all. In the Quran, Sura 7:54, 10:3, 11:7, and 25:59 clearly state that Allah created "the heavens and the earth" in six days. But in Sura 41:9-12 the detailed description of the creation procedure adds up to eight days. (2) Secondly, the Quran does NOT describe how Eve was created. In fact, the Quran does not even her “Eveâ€Â. The Quran mentions Adam’s “wife†but does not say how and when she was created. (Sura 2:35)
Salam1: (1) I have heard refutations of this. I will post them as I find them. (2) Correct, her name is Hawwa in the Hadith and is told of in the hadith.
Gary: (1) No need to post Islamic polemic sites. The Quran says it all. (2) So again, the Hadith has more information than the Quran! I thought that you do not believe anything which is in the Hadith but not in the Quran.
Salam1: (1) ---(cut-n-paste from polemic Islamic website)--- (2) I don't belive (sic) in it if it goes against the Quran. That hadith does not go against it, it merely clearifies (sic) it.
Gary: (1) Two days for the creation of the earth, then four days to fill the earth with mountains, blessings and nourishment for all its inhabitants, and in the end two more days to create the seven heavens and create the stars in them. This adds up to 2+4+2 = 8 days in contradiction to the 6 days mentioned in the other verses. (2) I have shown you many Hadith which do not go against the Quran but merely show you the true Muhammad. I thought the Quran was clear. Why do you need the Hadith to clarify the Quran?
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Salam1: Moses and his people were muslims since they submitted to God.
Gary: Moses and his people were never called muslims. Muhammad made that up.
Salam1: I disagree. A muslim is one who submits to God. Moses pbuh submitted to God. Note: Gary I understand according to your religion that he was a Jew. This is part of my religion, and I believe that God told us this, and no human being "made it up".
Gary: Your religion does not tie up with facts. Moses was never called a Muslim. The Jews were never called Muslims. Those are the facts. Logically, Muhammad’s claim is also false. If the Jews and Moses were “Muslims†(submitters to God), what happened when they turned from God as they did many times….. did they cease being “Muslimsâ€Â? There is NO record before Muhammad that Jews were ever called “muslimsâ€Â.
Salam1: According to YOUR religion he was not.
Gary: According to facts (outside of both Islam and Christianity and Judaism), Moses and the Jews were NEVER called muslims.
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Salam1: Only certain humans are given miracles, and usually for prophetic (sic) purposes.
Gary: Muhammad performed no miracles.
Salam1: I disagree, He pbuh was able to make water flow from his fingertips for his people to do abluation. (sic)
Gary: Again, you believe the Hadith over the Quran. In his Quran, Muhammad says that Allah did not give Muhammad power to perform miracles (Sura 6:109-112; 17:92-97; 18:10; 29:49-50), that he was a mortal like anyone else (Sura 41:6) and that he was an ordinary man, (Sura 17:90-96).
Salam1: I read these Ayats, none of them say "Muhammad says that Allah did not give Muhammad power to perform miracles" Please show me where you found this.
Gary: Muhammad recited the Quran. Read the Suras that I mentioned. You will see that Muhammad was and is incapable of performing miracles.
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saved4life: Was Jesus sinless?
Salam1: In our faith, he (Jesus) was a Prophet, a man, and since he was a man... It is impossible not to sin.
Gary: (1) The Bible tells us that Jesus was the only person who ever lived who was entirely without sin. The Bible charges all men, from Adam onwards, as being under the power of sin and as having sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. Only Jesus is excepted. “He committed no sin, no guile was found on his lips.†(2) The Quran, too, appears to support the concept that Jesus was without sin. When the angel Jibril (Gabriel) appeared to Mary to announce her conception of Jesus, he said “I am only a messenger of your Lord, to announce to you a faultless son.â€Â
Salam1: (1) Again, that is part of your faith. (2) Please tell me exactly what ayat (verse) you found this on. Then we can talk.
Gary: (1) Yes, it is part of what is in the Bible. Jesus was born of a virgin (in both the Bible and the Quran). Jesus was and is the Messiah (in both the Bible and the Quran). He was greater than all the prophets. He was the Word of God. Jesus performed many miracles (in both the Bible and the Quran). Jesus was sinless (in both the Bible and the Quran). (2) The Quran says: “I am only a messenger of your Lord, to announce to you a faultless son.†(Surah 19:19).
Salam1: Funny trick. Pickthal's transalation (sic) differs big time from Yusuf Ali's. He said: "Nay, I am only a messenger from thy Lord, (to announce) to thee the gift of a holy son.
Gary: The Arabic words used to describe Jesus are ghulaaman-zakiyyan, “a most-holy boy.†The word zakiyyan means “blamelessâ€Â.
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saved4life: Is there a Heaven with many virgins?
Salam1: Obviously reading apologetic material, what is your definition of Heaven? Mine is a place that has things not heard of and you can do whatever you wish.
Gary: (1) That explains why there are rivers of wine in Islamic “paradise†but wine is not allowed on earth! (2) As for those “virginsâ€Â, the Quran says: In them will be fair (Maidens), good, beautiful….. Maidens restrained (as to their glances), in (goodly) pavilions….. Whom no man or Jinn before them has touched….. (Sura 55:70,72,74)
Salam1: (1) Of course Gary!! Need I remind you that it is Heaven! A far beyond perfect place! (2) We are talking about Heaven here. Your every wish will be granted here (inshallah).
Gary: (1) So Islam thinks that what is BAD on earth is GOOD in “paradiseâ€Â. (2) We are not talking about heaven. We are talking about the Islamic concept of “paradise.†Show me the Sura in the Quran that says that “your every wish will be granted in paradiseâ€Â.
Salam1: Its paradise...wake up, you can do whatever man.
Gary: I am very awake. That is why I am not fooled by Muhammad or Islam. Muhammad had to describe this decadent and carnal “paradise†to attract followers.
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saved4life: Do women get virgins, too?
Salam1: Its heaven right?? Heaven is a place where your wish, is always granted.
Gary: (1) There is no mention of virgins for women in “paradise.†(2) In fact, in the Hadith, Muhammad said that the majority of people in hell are women.
Salam1: (1) The Quran says that the "belivers" (sic) will enter paradise. Of course women are among the belivers (sic), and will be granted their heart's desire. Gary, our concept of heaven is a place far from what we can even try to visiualize in our heads. (2) Where did you find this hadith?
Gary: (1) Virgins are mentioned for males. There is no mention of virgins for females. The Quran is quite specific. It describes “paradise†several times. It does NOT say that “paradise†is a “place far from what we can even try to visiualize in our heads.†If it does, please reference the Sura which says that. (2) Sahih Al-Bukhari: Volume 1, Book 2, Number 28: Narrated Ibn 'Abbas: The Prophet said: "I was shown the Hell-fire and that the majority of its dwellers were women who were ungrateful."
Salam1: The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “Allaah says ‘I have prepared for My righteous slaves that which no eye has seen, no ear has heard and it has never crossed the mind of man.’ Recite if you wish: ‘No person knows what is kept hidden for them of joy as a reward for what they used to do’ [al-Sajdah 32:17 – interpretation of the meaning].†Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 3072; Muslim, 2824. This is found in the Hadith.
Gary: Thanks for that.
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Are all religions true? No……
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Salam1: We just don't know, its not up to us to decide. But to me, if someone belives (sic) in One God (that has no partners) all the prophets, books, angels, in the afterlife, good works...then they are doing what ever they can to be on the straight path, and that is what counts.
Gary: You cannot WORK your way to heaven.
Salam1: You are obviously Protestant, correct?
Gary: I follow what the Bible says and what Jesus taught. Jesus affirmed that every person needs God’s grace. Jesus’ disciples said to him, “Who then can be saved?†Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible†(Matthew 19:25-26). All through the Gospel of John, Jesus presented only one way to obtain God’s gracious salvation: “Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life†(John 3:36; 3:16; 5:24; Mark 1:15). Paul taught the same concept; salvation by grace through faith, affirming, “It is by grace you have been saved, through faith - and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God - not by works, so that no one can boast†(Ephesians 2:8-9; Titus 3:5-7).
Salam1: According to my religion, good works lead to paradise. End of story. Its that simple. Beliveing (sic) also leads to paradise, they are both necessary. Boasting isn't moral.
Gary: In Islam there is NO assurance of you reaching “paradiseâ€Â. The only sure way is to die while fighting Allah’s cause.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Salam1: I am God's creation, but God loves me more then a father would love his child.
Gary: Where does it say in the Quran that Allah LOVES you more than a father loves his child?
Salam1: It doesn't, however that is how I personally feel, there is a hadith hitting close to this.
Gary: So you believe something which is NOT in the Quran but only in the Hadith?
Salam1: On those who believe and work deeds of righteousness, will (Allah) Most Gracious bestow love. (Quran 19:96).
Gary: Yes, Allah (unlike God) only loves those who believe and work deeds of righteousness. Imagine if these where the conditions under which YOU loved your child. Can you see the difference? In fact, you have PROVEN that Allah does NOT love you more than a father loves a child. Thank you.
Salam1: Gary, my God has given us the opportunity (sic) to good good or do bad. People who do bad, are not worth meriting. On the contrast those who do good, are worth meritying (sic). Don't confuse your teachings with mine. And I am pleased to say that I belive (sic) in One God, not a trinity.
Gary: I have shown, conclusively, that your own HUMAN standard of “love of a father for his child†is GREATER than the love Allah shows for you.
Salam1: Nope, I have seen hadiths that say something similar (sic) to this. BTW, Allah SWT loves me, and I don't need you to tell me otherwise. God is above us.
Gary: You have not shown (from either the Quran or the Hadith) that “Allah loves you like a father loves his childâ€Â. That was your original claim. It has still not been proven.
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Salam1: I can't think of a religion that so strongly supports monotheism other then Islam.
Gary: Islam, Judaism and Christianity are all monotheistic. The issue with Islamic monotheism is that it makes Allah the author of evil.
Salam1: (1) Judaism and Chrisitainty (sic) are Monotheistic, yes. But Islam is very anti-pagan. There are a ton of passages in the Quran that ask men to stop worhiping (sic) idols and multiple Gods. (2) Calling my God "the author of evil" is childish and naive. Lets leave name calling to the toddlers.
Gary: (1) If Islam is so anti-pagan, why do you have so many pagan rituals in your religion? (2) Allah is the author of evil. The Qur’an frankly admits that Allah could have saved all, but did not desire to do so. Sura 32:13 declares: "Had we so willed We should have brought every soul its guidance, but true is that saying of Mine: ‘I shall assuredly fill up Gehenna with jinn and men together."’ It is extremely difficult to understand how, holding such a view, one can consistently maintain any kind of human responsibility. The logical problem with Islamic determinism is that even Muslim commentators are forced to acknowledge that Allah performs contradictory actions. Islamicist Ignaz Golziher summarizes the situation, "There is probably no other point of doctrine on which equally contradictory teachings can be derived from the Qur’an as on this one" (Golziher, 78). One Muslim scholar notes, "The Qur’anic doctrine of Predestination is very explicit though not very logical" (Stanton, 54-55). For example, Allah is "the One Who leads astray," as well as "the One Who guides." He is "the One Who brings damage," as also does Satan. He is "the Bringer-down," "the Compeller" or "Tyrant," and "the Haughty." When describing people, all these concepts have an evil sense.
Salam1: Gary, Allah SWT has given us free will. And some people reject that. What happens in YOUR religion on the Day of Judgement? What will happen to the pagans, sinners, etc. They will burn in hell, maybe? If you don't accept God as one and only then you fail. Simple as that.
Gary: Salam1, we discussing the author of evil. I have put forward the argument that, in Islam, Allah is the author of evil. I have used the Quran to show that fact.
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saved4life: Did your God create the world in 6 days, and make Eve out of Adam's rib?
Salam1: True.
Gary: (1) Actually not true at all. In the Quran, Sura 7:54, 10:3, 11:7, and 25:59 clearly state that Allah created "the heavens and the earth" in six days. But in Sura 41:9-12 the detailed description of the creation procedure adds up to eight days. (2) Secondly, the Quran does NOT describe how Eve was created. In fact, the Quran does not even her “Eveâ€Â. The Quran mentions Adam’s “wife†but does not say how and when she was created. (Sura 2:35)
Salam1: (1) I have heard refutations of this. I will post them as I find them. (2) Correct, her name is Hawwa in the Hadith and is told of in the hadith.
Gary: (1) No need to post Islamic polemic sites. The Quran says it all. (2) So again, the Hadith has more information than the Quran! I thought that you do not believe anything which is in the Hadith but not in the Quran.
Salam1: (1) ---(cut-n-paste from polemic Islamic website)--- (2) I don't belive (sic) in it if it goes against the Quran. That hadith does not go against it, it merely clearifies (sic) it.
Gary: (1) Two days for the creation of the earth, then four days to fill the earth with mountains, blessings and nourishment for all its inhabitants, and in the end two more days to create the seven heavens and create the stars in them. This adds up to 2+4+2 = 8 days in contradiction to the 6 days mentioned in the other verses. (2) I have shown you many Hadith which do not go against the Quran but merely show you the true Muhammad. I thought the Quran was clear. Why do you need the Hadith to clarify the Quran?
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Salam1: Moses and his people were muslims since they submitted to God.
Gary: Moses and his people were never called muslims. Muhammad made that up.
Salam1: I disagree. A muslim is one who submits to God. Moses pbuh submitted to God. Note: Gary I understand according to your religion that he was a Jew. This is part of my religion, and I believe that God told us this, and no human being "made it up".
Gary: Your religion does not tie up with facts. Moses was never called a Muslim. The Jews were never called Muslims. Those are the facts. Logically, Muhammad’s claim is also false. If the Jews and Moses were “Muslims†(submitters to God), what happened when they turned from God as they did many times….. did they cease being “Muslimsâ€Â? There is NO record before Muhammad that Jews were ever called “muslimsâ€Â.
Salam1: According to YOUR religion he was not.
Gary: According to facts (outside of both Islam and Christianity and Judaism), Moses and the Jews were NEVER called muslims.
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Salam1: Only certain humans are given miracles, and usually for prophetic (sic) purposes.
Gary: Muhammad performed no miracles.
Salam1: I disagree, He pbuh was able to make water flow from his fingertips for his people to do abluation. (sic)
Gary: Again, you believe the Hadith over the Quran. In his Quran, Muhammad says that Allah did not give Muhammad power to perform miracles (Sura 6:109-112; 17:92-97; 18:10; 29:49-50), that he was a mortal like anyone else (Sura 41:6) and that he was an ordinary man, (Sura 17:90-96).
Salam1: I read these Ayats, none of them say "Muhammad says that Allah did not give Muhammad power to perform miracles" Please show me where you found this.
Gary: Muhammad recited the Quran. Read the Suras that I mentioned. You will see that Muhammad was and is incapable of performing miracles.
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saved4life: Was Jesus sinless?
Salam1: In our faith, he (Jesus) was a Prophet, a man, and since he was a man... It is impossible not to sin.
Gary: (1) The Bible tells us that Jesus was the only person who ever lived who was entirely without sin. The Bible charges all men, from Adam onwards, as being under the power of sin and as having sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. Only Jesus is excepted. “He committed no sin, no guile was found on his lips.†(2) The Quran, too, appears to support the concept that Jesus was without sin. When the angel Jibril (Gabriel) appeared to Mary to announce her conception of Jesus, he said “I am only a messenger of your Lord, to announce to you a faultless son.â€Â
Salam1: (1) Again, that is part of your faith. (2) Please tell me exactly what ayat (verse) you found this on. Then we can talk.
Gary: (1) Yes, it is part of what is in the Bible. Jesus was born of a virgin (in both the Bible and the Quran). Jesus was and is the Messiah (in both the Bible and the Quran). He was greater than all the prophets. He was the Word of God. Jesus performed many miracles (in both the Bible and the Quran). Jesus was sinless (in both the Bible and the Quran). (2) The Quran says: “I am only a messenger of your Lord, to announce to you a faultless son.†(Surah 19:19).
Salam1: Funny trick. Pickthal's transalation (sic) differs big time from Yusuf Ali's. He said: "Nay, I am only a messenger from thy Lord, (to announce) to thee the gift of a holy son.
Gary: The Arabic words used to describe Jesus are ghulaaman-zakiyyan, “a most-holy boy.†The word zakiyyan means “blamelessâ€Â.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
saved4life: Is there a Heaven with many virgins?
Salam1: Obviously reading apologetic material, what is your definition of Heaven? Mine is a place that has things not heard of and you can do whatever you wish.
Gary: (1) That explains why there are rivers of wine in Islamic “paradise†but wine is not allowed on earth! (2) As for those “virginsâ€Â, the Quran says: In them will be fair (Maidens), good, beautiful….. Maidens restrained (as to their glances), in (goodly) pavilions….. Whom no man or Jinn before them has touched….. (Sura 55:70,72,74)
Salam1: (1) Of course Gary!! Need I remind you that it is Heaven! A far beyond perfect place! (2) We are talking about Heaven here. Your every wish will be granted here (inshallah).
Gary: (1) So Islam thinks that what is BAD on earth is GOOD in “paradiseâ€Â. (2) We are not talking about heaven. We are talking about the Islamic concept of “paradise.†Show me the Sura in the Quran that says that “your every wish will be granted in paradiseâ€Â.
Salam1: Its paradise...wake up, you can do whatever man.
Gary: I am very awake. That is why I am not fooled by Muhammad or Islam. Muhammad had to describe this decadent and carnal “paradise†to attract followers.
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saved4life: Do women get virgins, too?
Salam1: Its heaven right?? Heaven is a place where your wish, is always granted.
Gary: (1) There is no mention of virgins for women in “paradise.†(2) In fact, in the Hadith, Muhammad said that the majority of people in hell are women.
Salam1: (1) The Quran says that the "belivers" (sic) will enter paradise. Of course women are among the belivers (sic), and will be granted their heart's desire. Gary, our concept of heaven is a place far from what we can even try to visiualize in our heads. (2) Where did you find this hadith?
Gary: (1) Virgins are mentioned for males. There is no mention of virgins for females. The Quran is quite specific. It describes “paradise†several times. It does NOT say that “paradise†is a “place far from what we can even try to visiualize in our heads.†If it does, please reference the Sura which says that. (2) Sahih Al-Bukhari: Volume 1, Book 2, Number 28: Narrated Ibn 'Abbas: The Prophet said: "I was shown the Hell-fire and that the majority of its dwellers were women who were ungrateful."
Salam1: The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “Allaah says ‘I have prepared for My righteous slaves that which no eye has seen, no ear has heard and it has never crossed the mind of man.’ Recite if you wish: ‘No person knows what is kept hidden for them of joy as a reward for what they used to do’ [al-Sajdah 32:17 – interpretation of the meaning].†Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 3072; Muslim, 2824. This is found in the Hadith.
Gary: Thanks for that.
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S
Salam1
Guest
That and doing good works. But remember, only God can make these decisions.
"God is the Creator of everything. He is the guardian over everything. Unto Him belong the keys of the heavens and the earth." (39:62, 63)
I claimed this is how I personally felt about Allah.
And Im disscussing leaving, if you are not incapable of speaking in a respectable manner.
Read Quran 16:125 and ponder.
I disagree, you haven't even thought about what I said. Reread what I said.
Exactly, they show how gracious he was. Never the less, some people have actually fabricated some. REMEBER, Allah promised to keep the Quran the same till the end, but Hadith were never mentioned to be kept as such.
We don't, the Hadith are human reports.
Am I going to have to repeat my point? I have told you that they were never called "good, happy, content" because these are English.
Im sure he was called a "submitter to God" "or a beliver of God", so what is different then being called "Muslim".
I disagree, show me where it says so. Allah gives these miracles to Prophets, they aren't born with such.
Of course, you yourself aren't an Arabic speaker, just read apologetic material...
Let me check up on this. And I will post back.
And this is what seperates you from me, I preform good works and know that my faith is important as well. I look forward to eternity in Paradise, INSHALLAH (God willing).
You on the other hand do not belive in good works, just in faith.
2. Prophet Muhammed didn't use paradise as a thing to make people listen all the time. He did answer to them when he asked however. Remember, Paradise, is a place where your wishes will be granted.
He was a great advocate of good works too. Lets hear some of the things he pbuh had to say, eh?
To honor an old man is to show respect to Allah."
"Cleanliness is piety".
"Do you love your Creator? Then love your fellow beings first."
"To give the laborer his wages before his perspiration dried up."
"O Allah, keep me poor in my life and at my death and raise me at resurrection among those who are poor." (Nasai, Chapter: Pardon)
S
Salam1
Guest
Oh, and by the way, since you don't belive in Allah, can you plez tell me why the Arabic Bible says "Allah" every time there is God?
This is tied up to the hole Moses pbuh is a muslim thing.
This is tied up to the hole Moses pbuh is a muslim thing.