Bible Study Are Believers Under the Law?

[Solo]

What does the scripture teach us about the believers keeping the Law in order to be saved, and in order to continue to be saved?

Acts 15 is self explanatory. The Law of Moses and the circumsion was not meant for the Gentile believers, but for the Israelites.

1 And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved. 2 When therefore Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and disputation with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas, and certain other of them, should go up to Jerusalem unto the apostles and elders about this question. 3 And being brought on their way by the church, they passed through Phenice and Samaria, declaring the conversion of the Gentiles: and they caused great joy unto all the brethren. 4 And when they were come to Jerusalem, they were received of the church, and of the apostles and elders, and they declared all things that God had done with them. 5 But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.
6 And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter. 7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe. 8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us; 9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. 10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear? 11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they. 12 Then all the multitude kept silence, and gave audience to Barnabas and Paul, declaring what miracles and wonders God had wrought among the Gentiles by them. 13 And after they had held their peace, James answered, saying, Men and brethren, hearken unto me: 14 Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name. 15 And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written, 16 After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up: 17 That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things. 18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world. 19 Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God: 20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood. 21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.

22 Then pleased it the apostles and elders, with the whole church, to send chosen men of their own company to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas; namely, Judas surnamed Barsabas, and Silas, chief men among the brethren: 23 And they wrote letters by them after this manner; The apostles and elders and brethren send greeting unto the brethren which are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia: 24 Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment: 25 It seemed good unto us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men unto you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul, 26 Men that have hazarded their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. 27 We have sent therefore Judas and Silas, who shall also tell you the same things by mouth. 28 For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things; 29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well. 30 So when they were dismissed, they came to Antioch: and when they had gathered the multitude together, they delivered the epistle: 31 Which when they had read, they rejoiced for the consolation. 32 And Judas and Silas, being prophets also themselves, exhorted the brethren with many words, and confirmed them. 33 And after they had tarried there a space, they were let go in peace from the brethren unto the apostles. 34 Notwithstanding it pleased Silas to abide there still. 35 Paul also and Barnabas continued in Antioch, teaching and preaching the word of the Lord, with many others also. Acts 15:1-35

 

[Georges]

Believers aren't "under the Law", they should simply obey the law in respect to God's wishes....and people who think that the law is bondage should remove themselves from that quagmire, because that is not how the Law should be considered....

Law as a Taskmaster is a promotion of Pauline Christianity......the Law as a model of righteous living is ideal.....I can't believe any and all Christians can't readily accept that...

And...actually, the OT is full of instances where "keeping the Law" does save...God judges the intent....whether the law is kept perfectly of not...

And...if you are considering Acts as Scripture....the OT is the only reliable scripture.

 

[Solo]

Believers aren't "under the Law", they should simply obey the law in respect to God's wishes....and people who think that the law is bondage should remove themselves from that quagmire, because that is not how the Law should be considered....

Law as a Taskmaster is a promotion of Pauline Christianity......the Law as a model of righteous living is ideal.....I can't believe any and all Christians can't readily accept that...

And...actually, the OT is full of instances where "keeping the Law" does save...God judges the intent....whether the law is kept perfectly of not...

And...if you are considering Acts as Scripture....the OT is the only reliable scripture.

All of the Apostles in Jerusalem accepted Peter's statement as recorded in Acts 15 as truth, and Paul and Silas were sent out to the Gentiles to teach the same. Circumcision and the Mosaic Law was for the Jews in the Old Covenant, and God expanded his grace to the Gentiles apart from the law.

It sounds like you are against the Apostle Paul and his letters to the Churches. What's with that?

 

[Georges]

Believers aren't "under the Law", they should simply obey the law in respect to God's wishes....and people who think that the law is bondage should remove themselves from that quagmire, because that is not how the Law should be considered....

Law as a Taskmaster is a promotion of Pauline Christianity......the Law as a model of righteous living is ideal.....I can't believe any and all Christians can't readily accept that...

And...actually, the OT is full of instances where "keeping the Law" does save...God judges the intent....whether the law is kept perfectly of not...

And...if you are considering Acts as Scripture....the OT is the only reliable scripture.

All of the Apostles in Jerusalem accepted Peter's statement as recorded in Acts 15 as truth, and Paul and Silas were sent out to the Gentiles to teach the same. Circumcision and the Mosaic Law was for the Jews in the Old Covenant, and God expanded his grace to the Gentiles apart from the law.

That the Apostles accepted Peter's statement only in the context of the "middle wall of partition", those "man made laws surrounding the Torah". Acts is a dangerous book in that it promotes Paul as seen throught they eyes of Luke (Paul's personal biographer).

If what you said was true...why was Timothy circumcized and Titus not? Circumcision is very Lawish....perhaps Paul did it for hygenic purposes...


It sounds like you are against the Apostle Paul and his letters to the Churches. What's with that?

Because some of them were not written by Paul......and Paul's theology did not agree with the Disciples of Jerusalem....And....Paul as seen in the Nazarite Vow scene (another Torah observant act) showed the Apostles that he was Torah observant...when they sent Paul back out to "Prosyletize" Paul did not....he began teaching his own brand of "Pauline Christianity".
He taught Judaism with a little Gnosticism and Mystery religion mixed in...that is obvious.

 

[JM]

As much as I love Reformed thought and theology, I can’t see how they use the Law as a means of progressive sanctification. The Law didn't make anything wrong (except the Sabbath) that wasn't already wrong. Following is a mixed post of quotes, mostly mine but some are taken from unsited sources.

From the time of Adam, it was wrong to kill, steal, or lie. Law merely added penalties (and they are strictly limited to Israel) for breaking the Law.

It was to be carried out by the Jewish leaders (quote: 'notice that God protected the murderer Cain, because there was no law yet, and, therefore, no penalty.')

No one today who believes we are under the Law would advocate putting church members to death for picking up sticks on the Sabbath. That's why Paul says in Galatians, "you who desire to be under the Law, do you not hear the Law? (4:21).

The believer is not under the Law in any sense as we read in Rom. 6:14, because Jesus our Lord has already paid the death penalty demanded of those who break it (Rom. 6:6; 7:4) Remember what James wrote, you're dead after breaking the Law once (James 2:10). From that point on (a death sentence) being under a law is meaningless, because you can only die once, so the second murder, etc., are freebies. What happens to a condemned murderer on death row who kills a guard?

Quote: But, the believer (new man) has also been resurrected from the dead (Col. 3:1-3) as a new man with the life of Christ, and the old man is still dead. The position of the new man is one of having already attained perfect righteousness positionally, so all sin is in the past and the penalty has already been paid (Eph. 4:22-24 - you have put off the old man... you have put on the new man...). Now, it is not the Law that is worked out (forbidding unrighteousness), but it is the life of Christ worked out (positive righteousness) from the new nature and the indwelling HS, none of which can be found in the Law.

Quote: Galatianism- the mingling of law and grace; the teaching that justification is partly by grace, partly by law, or, that grace is given to enable an otherwise helpless sinner to keep the law. Against this error, the most wide-spread of all, the solemn warnings, the. unanswerable logic, the emphatic declarations of the Epistle to the Galatians are God's conclusive answer.

"This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?" (Gal. 3:2- 3).

"I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: which is not another [there could not be another gospel]; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed" (Gal. 1:6-8 ).

~~~~~~~~~~I’m currently going thru a theological-reformation [semper reformanda], but I’ll go with what I know on this issue, here goes.

Before the Law

1. Innocence, or Untested Holiness (Genesis 1-3):
a. God offers man (Adam and Eve) eternal life for obedience (Gen. 1:26-28, 2:15-17).
b. Man rebels, and is expelled from the Garden of Eden (Gen. 3:1-6; 3:7-19).

2. Conscience (Genesis 4-6):
a. God offers to govern man through his conscience (Gen. 3:5, 7, 22, 4:4).
b. Man sears his conscience, and God brings the universal flood (Gen. 6:5, 6, 11, 12; 6:7, 13, 7:11-24).

3. Government (Genesis 7-11):
a. God offers to govern man through civil government (Gen. 8:15-9:7).
b. Man corrupts civil government, and God brings the confusion of tongues and scatters man (Gen. 11:1-4; Gen. 11:5-9).

4. Promise (Genesis 12 -- Millennial Kingdom):
a. God promises to bless Abraham and his descendants, and all nations through them (Gen. 12:1-7).
b. Jacob's sons apostatize and God brings them into slavery in Egypt (Gen. 12:10, 46:6; Exodus 1:8-14).

Which brings us to ...

5. Law (Exodus 20 -- Millennial Kingdom):
a. God promises to grant Israel the promises he made to Abraham conditional to their obedience to his Law Exodus 19:3-8 ).
b. Israel apostatizes (broke law, rejected Christ), undergoes exile and dispersion, and is finally purified through the Great Tribulation (2 Kings 17:7-20, Matt. 27:1-25; Deut. 28:63-66, Luke 21:20-24).

The doctrine many folks keep bringing up without realizing it is called "active righteousness" and ends up in the believer being under the law because Christ kept the Law. Reformed writer Dr. R. C. Sproul sums it like this: The cross alone, however, does not justify us . . . We are justified not only by the death of Christ, but also by the life of Christ. Christ's mission of redemption was not limited to the cross. To save us He had to live a life of perfect righteousness. His perfect, active obedience was necessary for His and our salvation . . . We are constituted as righteous by the obedience of Christ which is imputed to us by faith [R. C. Sproul, Faith Alone, (Grand Rapids, MI: Baker Books, 1997), p. 103].

The question then is, does following the Law make one righteous? Was Abram declared rigtheous because of his works or his faith? Jesus is perfect, He is God and did the will of the Father perfectly “For Christ once suffered for sins, the Just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh . . .†1 Peter 3:18 “. . . being justified by His blood we shall be saved from wrath through Him†Rom.5:9. We are justified and seen as righteous because of Christ's death and not His perfect Law keeping. Our justication is in the risen Christ, He is our righteousness, not Christ Law keeping in our place, "But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith." Gal. 3

So what is the purpose of the Law if it doesn't make one righteous? The Law was a school master ("Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.") and as the school master of the Mosaic covenant, it showed the Jewish nation their sins and condemned those under the Law.

Quote: "Law has dominion over a man as long as he liveth†(Rom. 7:1). Paul then sets forth our complete deliverance from under the law when he says that those who were under the law were made dead to the law by the death of Christ, that they might be joined to another, to Him that was raised from the dead (Rom. 7:1-6). A dead man is not subject to civil or religious law; in like manner, the believer is not subject to the law of Moses because he is dead and risen in Christ. Therefore, to those who believe on Christ, the law has lost its authority to bring either condemnation or righteousness through the obedience of Christ. Paul finally concludes this argument in Romans by writing, “For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believes†(Rom. 10:4). David Dunlap

William Kelly wrote: Had Christ only kept the law, neither your soul nor mine could have been saved much less be blessed as we are. Whoever kept the law, it would have been a righteousness of the law, and not God's righteousness, which has not the smallest connection with obeying the law. Because Christ obeyed unto death, God brought in a new kind of righteousness â€â€not ours, but His own favor. Christ has been made a curse upon the tree; God has made Him sin for us that we might be the righteousness of God in Him.

Note: This is the Biblical view, it's not antinomianism (The word comes from the Greek anti, against, and nomos, law. It is the unbiblical practice of living without regard to the righteousness of God, using God's grace as a license to sin, and trusting grace to cleanse of sin.) http://www.carm.org/dictionary/dic_a-b.htm#_1_7 In no way am I suggesting that we live sinful lives, that's a red herring.
So what is the basis as a rule of life for the believer?

Quote: We are fully convinced that a superstructure of true, practical holiness can never be erected on a legal basis; and hence it is that we press 1 Cor 1:30, upon the attention of our readers. It is to be feared that many who have, in some measure, abandoned the legal ground, in the matter of "righteousness," are yet lingering thereon for "sanctification." We believe this to be the mistake of thousands, and we are most anxious to see it corrected. It is evident that a sinner cannot be justified by the works of the law; and it is equally evident that the law is not the rule of the believer’s life. As to the believer’s rule of life, the apostle does not say, "To me to live is the law;" but, "To me to live is Christ" (Phil. 1:21). Christ is our rule, our model, our touchstone, our all. We receive the Ten Commandments as part of the canon of inspiration; and moreover, we believe that the law remains in full force to rule and curse a man as long as he liveth. Let a sinner only try to get life by it, and see where it will put him; and let a believer only shape his way according to it, and see what it will make of him. We are fully convinced that if a man is walking according to the spirit of the gospel, he will not commit murder nor steal; but we are also convinced that a man, confining himself to the standard of the law of Moses would fall very short of the spirit of the gospel. – C.H. MACKINTOSH [Footnote #9--THE MACKINTOSH TREASURY– MISCELLANEOUS WRITINGS BY C.H.Mackintosh, p. 628, 653-654].

I stand with Paul when he wrote, "I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I LIVE BY THE FAITH OF THE SON OF GOD, who loved me, and gave Himself for me." Gal. 2:20 Because of Christ, I am a new creature (Gal. 6:15-16) set apart from the Law (2 Cor. 5:17; Eph. 2:8-10; 4:24; Col. 3:10)

Here's a wonderful story to explain the relationship a believer has with the carnal nature and the Law.

Romans 7:

Notice first that in the picture by which, in Romans 7:1-4, Paul illustrates our deliverance from the Law, there is only one woman, while there are two husbands. The woman is in a very difficult position, for she can only be wife of one of the two, and unfortunately she is married to the less desirable one. Let us make no mistake, the man to whom she is married is a good man; but the trouble lies here, that the husband and wife are totally unsuited to one another. He is a most particular man, accurate to a degree; she on the other hand is decidedly easy-going. With him all is definite and precise; with her all is casual and haphazard. He wants everything just so, while she takes things as they come. How could there be happiness in such a home?

And then that husband is so exacting! He is always making demands upon her. And yet one cannot find fault with him, for as a husband he has a right to expect something of his wife; and besides, all his demands are perfectly legitimate. There is nothing wrong with the man and nothing wrong with his demands; the trouble is that he has the wrong kind of wife to carry them out. The two cannot get on at all; theirs are utterly incompatible natures. Thus the poor woman is in great distress. She is fully aware that she often makes mistakes, but living with such a husband it seems as though EVERYTHING she says and does is wrong! What hope is there for her? If only she were married to that other Man all would be well. He is no less exacting than her husband, but He also helps much. She would fain marry Him, but her husband is still alive. What can she do? She is "bound by law to the husband" and unless he dies she cannot legitimately marry that other Man.

The first husband is the Law; the second husband is Christ; and you are the woman. The law requires much, but offers no help in the carrying out of its requirements. The Lord Jesus requires just as much, yea more, but what He requires from us He Himself carries out in us. The law makes demands and leaves us helpless to fulfill them; Christ makes demands, but He Himself fulfills in us the very demands He makes. Little wonder that the woman desires to be freed from the first husband that she may marry that other Man! But her only hope of release is through the death of her first husband, and he holds on to life most tenaciously. Indeed there is not the least prospect of his passing away (see Matthew 5:18).

The law is going to continue for all eternity. If the Law will never pass away, then how can I ever be united to Christ? How can I marry a second husband if my first husband resolutely refuses to die? There is only one way out. If HE will not die, I can die, and if I die the marriage relationship is dissolved. And that is exactly God’s way of deliverance from the Law. The most important point to note in this section of Romans 7 is the transition from verse 3 to verse 4. Verses 1 to 3 show that the husband should die, but in verse 4 we see that in fact it is the woman who dies. The Law does not pass away, but I pass away, and by death I am freed from the Law. [Footnote #15--Watchman Nee, THE NORMAL CHRISTIAN LIFE, pages 107-109 (Chapter 9).]

Before someone starts claiming I’m antinomian, I’m not, and understand that 9 of the 10 commandments [except the Sabbath] are restated in the NT…and how did we receive salvation? Galatians 3:1-5.

If I’m in error, I apologize, this is a subject I’m revisiting.

Jason

 

[mutzrein]

Are believers under the law?

No!

 

[LEGO]

What does the scripture teach us about the believers keeping the Law in order to be saved, and in order to continue to be saved?

The original question , and the arguments following it seem to be about two different things. Are we under the law to obtain salvation? of course not. Are we under the law to retain salvation? Of course not. I am sure we all know that "(we) are saved through grace, and that, not of yourselves, it is a gift from God, so that no one can boast."

Once belief comes and the gift of grace is accepted then, any breaking of the law is a sin, correct? And as a believing Christian, can any sin but blasphemy of the Holy Spirit NOT be forgiven? Of course not. So "keeping salvation" is never really an issue for believers is it?

As for the law itself, Christ Himself clarified the importance of the law when He said:
"You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, 'Do not murder'...But I tell you that anyone who is ANGRY with his brother will be subject to judgment..." And He went on to speak of other laws and to"qualify" them, if you will, as something to be written on your heart and viewed from the stand point of love.

If you love your neighbor as yourself, you won't steal from him. You wont sleep with his wife. If you truly love your wife, you would never want to hurt her by commiting adultery. If you love your fellow man you're not going to cheat him in business are you? If you love one another you won't lie to or about anyone. If you love , truly love, you won't follow the law by rote. It won't be some drudgery. It will be as natural as getting up in the morning. And if you love God you will obey His laws, not FOR salvation, but because of salvation. As a believer they're not really laws in the sense of NEEDING to obey them, they are a way of life. THAT was the message of Christ. The message of the Bible in fact. God's love as a father, our love as brothers and sisters, our love for God as His children, our love for our enimies that puts them to shame

Before Christ speaks about the specific laws of murder, adultery, etc. He makes a very declarative statement about the law in Matthew, verses 17 through 20. He speaks both to the imortance of the law and the fact of "permenant", if you want to call it that, salvation in verse 19,

"Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments...will be called the least in the Kingdom of Heaven."

Were the law not so important would He give such a warning? And, were salvation not a permanent thing, would you even be IN THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN to be called the least?

yous in Christ

 

[Rick W]

If I truly love my neighbor I'll not steal from him, I'll not covet his wife and I'll not bear false witness against him.
If I truly love my neighbor what law is necessary?

Rom 13:8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
Rom 13:9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.
Rom 13:10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbor: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

Gal 5:23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

 

[Relic]

Galatians 4:1-31
.

1 Now I say, That the heir, as long as he is a child, differeth nothing from a servant, though he be lord of all;

2 But is under tutors and governors until the time appointed of the father.

3 Even so we, when we were children, were in bondage under the elements of the world:

4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,

5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.

6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.

7 Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.

8 Howbeit then, when ye knew not God, ye did service unto them which by nature are no gods.

9 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?

10 Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years.

11 I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labour in vain.

12 Brethren, I beseech you, be as I am; for I am as ye are: ye have not injured me at all.

13 Ye know how through infirmity of the flesh I preached the gospel unto you at the first.

14 And my temptation which was in my flesh ye despised not, nor rejected; but received me as an angel of God, even as Christ Jesus.

15 Where is then the blessedness ye spake of? for I bear you record, that, if it had been possible, ye would have plucked out your own eyes, and have given them to me.

16 Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth?

17 They zealously affect you, but not well; yea, they would exclude you, that ye might affect them.

18 But it is good to be zealously affected always in a good thing, and not only when I am present with you.

19 My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you,

20 I desire to be present with you now, and to change my voice; for I stand in doubt of you.

21 Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?

22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman.

23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.

24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.

25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children.

26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

27 For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.

28 Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.

29 But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.

30 Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.

31 So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free.

.


Also read Galatians 5:1-26

Notice Galatians 5:18

18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

Now read the whole chapter.

.

 

[Relic]

Galatians 6
1 Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted.

2 Bear ye one another's burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ.

3 For if a man think himself to be something, when he is nothing, he deceiveth himself.

4 But let every man prove his own work, and then shall he have rejoicing in himself alone, and not in another.

5 For every man shall bear his own burden.

6 Let him that is taught in the word communicate unto him that teacheth in all good things.

7 Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.




Oh, just read the whole book of Galatians! It clears up the question. 8-)




:bday: .
.

 

[SputnikBoy]

Are we under the law of the land? Not until we break it. Then that incurs a penalty. Do we carry around a list of the laws of the land? Nope. The majority are 'written in our hearts' if you like. Does this mean that we're free to break any of them? Yes. But, as said, it will incur a penalty. Did Jesus take our sins on Himself in order that we have the freedom to break the law without penalty if we choose? I'm just asking.

 

[Georges]

If I truly love my neighbor I'll not steal from him, I'll not covet his wife and I'll not bear false witness against him.
If I truly love my neighbor what law is necessary?

That is exactly what the Law teaches....as quoted by both Jesus and his contemporary the Rabbi Hillel (A Pharisee Jew, and President of the Sanhedrin, founder of the school of Hillel)....

Quote from Hillel contemporary with but (pre Jesus)......concerning the "Law":

Babylonian Talmud, Shabbat 31a

Once there was a gentile who came before Shammai, and said to him: Convert me on the condition that you teach me the whole Torah while I stand on one foot. Shammai pushed him aside with the measuring stick he was holding. The same fellow came before Hillel, and Hillel converted him, saying: That which is despicable to you, do not do to your fellow, this is the whole Torah, and the
rest is commentary, go and learn it."


What Jesus said.....

Mat 22:36 Master, which [is] the great commandment in the law?
Mat 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
Mat 22:38 This is the first and great commandment.
Mat 22:39 And the second [is] like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Mat 22:40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

Does this sound like bondage...or being under the Law as being under a death sentence? Hardly....Both the Rabbi Hillel and Jesus promote the Torah as being the "Golden Rule" as a set of guidelines on how to love your neighbor....

I find it very interesting that Jesus is almost echoing the words of Hillel...Jesus must have been more in line with Pharisic thought than most people think....



Rom 13:8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
Rom 13:9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.
Rom 13:10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbor: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

Gal 5:23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

 

[guibox]

If you love your neighbor as yourself, you won't steal from him. You wont sleep with his wife. If you truly love your wife, you would never want to hurt her by commiting adultery. If you love your fellow man you're not going to cheat him in business are you? If you love one another you won't lie to or about anyone.

Yes, and if you truly love God with all your heart and soul, you will not put other god's before Him, take His name in vain, bow down to any image AND keep God's (not the Jews, Gentiles, mankinds, but God's) holy day made and set apart at creation when Adam was merely a 'newborn'.

This is why Christ said 'On these two laws hang all the law and prophets'.

You can't take one or two and place it under 'love' and ignore the rest. God's moral law IS love. It is a reflection of His government and His character and what He demands of us, His children. Whether they are written in our hearts or not is still what He wants us to aspire to.

The law is SUMMED UP in 'love your God and love your neighbor' it HANGS on them. It is not REPLACED by it for the law IS love.

This is something our 'law abrogators' can't seem to get through their heads.

 

[John the Baptist]

I find that most all here need to understand what law is being posted about before you post! It would not be cricket to combine the Law that Moses penned & recorded in a book, which he had placed in [the side of the Ark] with the only portion of the Word of the Godhead that They wrote themselves and put [INTO THE ARK] now would it?

We are living in the time of increased knowledge! Hosea 4:6. We need caution for how we 'might' rebel against the Word of 2 Corinthians 4:2 or Revelation 22:18-19. And in the last verses we see that we can have ones name at one juncture recorded in the Lamb's book of life and then have it removed by doing just such things as we see done here!

Even with this OSAS teaching being taught for truth for many a moon without a change of menu! : Unless of course the 'motive' is not understood & we are just ignorant, huh? :o

---John

 

[John the Baptist]

Are we under the law of the land? Not until we break it. Then that incurs a penalty. Do we carry around a list of the laws of the land? Nope. The majority are 'written in our hearts' if you like. Does this mean that we're free to break any of them? Yes. But, as said, it will incur a penalty. Did Jesus take our sins on Himself in order that we have the freedom to break the law without penalty if we choose? I'm just asking.

*********

Hay young fella,
are you trying to get smart with us? You know that that is just to simple & clear a post for us on this thread to have posted up!

And another thing, you know good & well that the laws of our land were mostly fashioned after the Word of God! :wink:

---John

 

[Imagican]

If I truly love my neighbor I'll not steal from him, I'll not covet his wife and I'll not bear false witness against him.
If I truly love my neighbor what law is necessary?

Rom 13:8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
Rom 13:9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.
Rom 13:10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbor: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

Gal 5:23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

Good one Pot.

And Solo, you should have made this one a poll.

And John, I think you just like to argue. he he he, No, just jokin'.

I think that almost everyone that understands the Word realizes that the law had it's purpose and that purpose was to teach love of God and love of our neighbors. Not an easy lesson to learn, but some did and then it reached the time for a 'new covenant'. Some understand, some don't. I simply believe that once we receive Christ into our hearts that the Spirit will convict of us when we are wrong and offer a bit of solace when we are right. But as far as those that choose to believe and teach others that they are bound, as the Jews were, to the Mosaic Law, good luck guys. I have a hard enough time simply trying to love. If that yoke were still ours to bare as the jews were bound, most of us would be stoned to death by now.

Forgiveness is a tough one for humans. Not only for sinners but for those that believe that they are saved also. There is often resentment by the 'saved' towards the unsaved. There are many that would condemn instead of bless those that are lost. Forgetting that we were all enemies of God before Christ was sent. Our job as those confessing a belief in Christ is to testimony to those without and pray for them. Oftentimes this is ignored in favor of lifting oneself up by bringing others down. Patting oneself on the back for their effort while condemning others for not.

 

[mutzrein]

Are we under the law of the land? Not until we break it. Then that incurs a penalty. Do we carry around a list of the laws of the land? Nope. The majority are 'written in our hearts' if you like. Does this mean that we're free to break any of them? Yes. But, as said, it will incur a penalty. Did Jesus take our sins on Himself in order that we have the freedom to break the law without penalty if we choose? I'm just asking.

Equating the law of the land with anything here is nonsense. Whether you break it or not you are still under it. You may not agree with it but by virtue of the fact that you abide in a certain place, you are under the law of that place.

Now even if Jesus did not make a way for me to be God's son I would not be under the law. I am not a Jew. And since Christ has made a way for me, I am still not under the law. But since his Spirit does dwell within me I fulfil the commands of God by the same Spirit - not because a law is written, forbidding me to break it.

 

[John the Baptist]

Are we under the law of the land? Not until we break it. Then that incurs a penalty. Do we carry around a list of the laws of the land? Nope. The majority are 'written in our hearts' if you like. Does this mean that we're free to break any of them? Yes. But, as said, it will incur a penalty. Did Jesus take our sins on Himself in order that we have the freedom to break the law without penalty if we choose? I'm just asking.

Equating the law of the land with anything here is nonsense. Whether you break it or not you are still under it. You may not agree with it but by virtue of the fact that you abide in a certain place, you are under the law of that place.

Now even if Jesus did not make a way for me to be God's son I would not be under the law. I am not a Jew. And since Christ has made a way for me, I am still not under the law. But since his Spirit does dwell within me I fulfil the commands of God by the same Spirit - not because a law is written, forbidding me to break it.

John here: Just two questions for your above 'post'.
You are not a spiritual Jew? Romans 2:28-29 K.J. says that 'But he is a Jew..'!

And in the above paragraph you say that you have His Spirit within me.. I fulfil the commands of God by His Spirit? I am asking what is the motive that moves you to Obey the Holy Spirit? Acts 5:32 surely is conditional & Romans 8:14 surely is not forcing oneself is it?

I am not questioning the posters integrity! Just would like clarity of the two questions? To me it seems to be flawed when measured by the Holy Spirit's Inspiration Himself?

 

[mutzrein]

Are we under the law of the land? Not until we break it. Then that incurs a penalty. Do we carry around a list of the laws of the land? Nope. The majority are 'written in our hearts' if you like. Does this mean that we're free to break any of them? Yes. But, as said, it will incur a penalty. Did Jesus take our sins on Himself in order that we have the freedom to break the law without penalty if we choose? I'm just asking.

Equating the law of the land with anything here is nonsense. Whether you break it or not you are still under it. You may not agree with it but by virtue of the fact that you abide in a certain place, you are under the law of that place.

Now even if Jesus did not make a way for me to be God's son I would not be under the law. I am not a Jew. And since Christ has made a way for me, I am still not under the law. But since his Spirit does dwell within me I fulfil the commands of God by the same Spirit - not because a law is written, forbidding me to break it.

John here: Just two questions for your above 'post'.
You are not a spiritual Jew? Romans 2:28-29 K.J. says that 'But he is a Jew..'!


And in the above paragraph you say that you have His Spirit within me.. I fulfil the commands of God by His Spirit? I am asking what is the motive that moves you to Obey the Holy Spirit? Acts 5:32 surely is conditional & Romans 8:14 surely is not forcing oneself is it?

I am not questioning the posters integrity! Just would like clarity of the two questions? To me it seems to be flawed when measured by the Holy Spirit's Inspiration Himself?

1. Outside of Christ we would only be talking about the law given to the Jews and since I am not a Jew I would not be subject to it. But I am in Christ and therefore a can say with Paul that the law is written on my heart. I am not circumcised outwardly but of the heart. The law is fulfilled by the Spirit, not by the written code.

2. I don't understand what you mean by asking what the motive is that moves me to obey the Holy Spirit. I don't have a motive. Since I am born of the Spirit, I do by nature the things that bring forth fruit of that same Spirit.

So what seems flawed to you?

 

[John the Baptist]

Are we under the law of the land? Not until we break it. Then that incurs a penalty. Do we carry around a list of the laws of the land? Nope. The majority are 'written in our hearts' if you like. Does this mean that we're free to break any of them? Yes. But, as said, it will incur a penalty. Did Jesus take our sins on Himself in order that we have the freedom to break the law without penalty if we choose? I'm just asking.

Equating the law of the land with anything here is nonsense. Whether you break it or not you are still under it. You may not agree with it but by virtue of the fact that you abide in a certain place, you are under the law of that place.

Now even if Jesus did not make a way for me to be God's son I would not be under the law. I am not a Jew. And since Christ has made a way for me, I am still not under the law. But since his Spirit does dwell within me I fulfil the commands of God by the same Spirit - not because a law is written, forbidding me to break it.

John here: Just two questions for your above 'post'.
You are not a spiritual Jew? Romans 2:28-29 K.J. says that 'But he is a Jew..'!


And in the above paragraph you say that you have His Spirit within me.. I fulfil the commands of God by His Spirit? I am asking what is the motive that moves you to Obey the Holy Spirit? Acts 5:32 surely is conditional & Romans 8:14 surely is not forcing oneself is it?

I am not questioning the posters integrity! Just would like clarity of the two questions? To me it seems to be flawed when measured by the Holy Spirit's Inspiration Himself?

1. Outside of Christ we would only be talking about the law given to the Jews and since I am not a Jew I would not be subject to it. But I am in Christ and therefore a can say with Paul that the law is written on my heart. I am not circumcised outwardly but of the heart. The law is fulfilled by the Spirit, not by the written code.

2. I don't understand what you mean by asking what the motive is that moves me to obey the Holy Spirit. I don't have a motive. Since I am born of the Spirit, I do by nature the things that bring forth fruit of that same Spirit.

So what seems flawed to you?

_________

John again:

No. two: No one has the Born Again Agape LOVE MOTIVE unless they are re/born. Obedience will follow for this reason only. The flaw was in regards to the answer not given. (I do not read hearts & minds, huh?)

About this love? In Adams sin, it was in the non/saving downward trend. We today do many things even with out the Christian 'tug' in deeds of kindness. We even have what is known as 'will power' to do this or that, (stop smoking for example) with out even being a professed Christian. And because we might or might not give God the benefit of this love, it was still our gift from Him to use or not to do so.

Now: This love does no one any good eternal saving/wise unless we have the original Born Again 'PERFECT' MOTIVE of Christ's love, then we are provided with all the essential provisions needed to advance! Philippians 4:13 & 2 Corinthians 12:9. Another word for advance is best understood as MATURING! See Nahum 1:9. Finally Adam got it right, yet his first born son who started out right, when 'mature' in the wrong direction, did not! : One was a serious Christian, and the lost eternally one was not.

And, yes, surely, it still is our free choice to do so, or the Agape Love given will become stagnant and be 'SPEWED OUT'. Revelation 3:16-17 K.J.