Are Christains to support sinful governments?

[reba]

Here in the USA .. Our Constitution is the law of the land not those folks in DC . As written it is a pretty good document . Perfect no.

 

[jasonc]

If an issue was important enough to me to make my voice known, then yeah, I'd have to make time to do one of those or possibly other options as well. Right now I'm not sure of a way to make my voice heard to a government agency, nor do I have a cause to bring to them to try and give their attention to.

The agency issues that I'd like to do something about are about trying to build more of a community atmosphere in almost any enviornment. Hopefully that would help create a safety net against the potential factors that contribute to mass shooting, gangs, sucides, and nurmous other sad tragedies that occur. Unfortunately I don't have a good idea of how to accomplish this so I don't. Another issue is with the high prices for medicine, education, and housing. We live in a society that is unaffordable, increasingly unaffordable, and only becomes affordable by going into debt, or by buying insurance of one kind or another to help pay for it. If you want to start a family the only way to do so with medical help is to have insurance for the pregency. Otherwise it is unaffordable. Education and homes require loans and mortgages to try and pay off, which at an increasing rate of price make it that much more unaffordable for a person to find a place to live or become educated. With education, the only practical reason to go to college now a days is for a career, not for the sake of learning. Which hinders our population that says it values knowledge and education. Unfortunately, I have no idea how to help resolve these issues either.

Other people have started organizations that have grown to help one cause or another. From homelessness, child hospitals, taking care of our vets, to numerous other causes, people take their cause and work on it. Your voice doesn't have to go through a government agency, but that is also an option as well.

It's just in my opinion that if we assume that our vote is our voice then we're being led a sham of a voice. But even if whatever we do, if it's not heard, then we need to keep trucking anyways. To not support a government because it's not listening to you or because it continues in crouption and sin are not bibical lessons. Hebrews 13:17 seems to suggest to do just the opposite.



If it was lawful to murder Christians then yeah I would flee. I would try and take as many with me as I could, whether they were Christian or not, but Expecially those that are my family, and those who are also Christians. That's a brave thing the pastor did, but I have a responsibility to the safety of my wife, my parents, and anyone else that I have the ability to protect. It was not unlawful for Abraham to travel when God called him to. Nor unlawful for the Isrealites to flee when God lead them out of Egypt. Nor for those from Syria to flee an ongoing civil war that seems to have no descernable end. Nor is it wrong in any other occurance that has happened throughout history.

Currently where would you go.it wouldn't be just christians.mexico?el chapo already is comparable to isis.Canada, how many refugees will they take

 

[Jim Parker]

From the Reverend Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.'s "Letter from Birmingham jail":

... One may want to ask: "How can you advocate breaking some laws and obeying others?" The answer lies in the fact that there are two types of laws: just and unjust. I would be the first to advocate obeying just laws. One has not only a legal but a moral responsibility to obey just laws. Conversely, one has a moral responsibility to disobey unjust laws. I would agree with St. Augustine that "an unjust law is no law at all"

16. Now, what is the difference between the two? How does one determine whether a law is just or unjust? A just law is a man-made code that squares with the moral law or the law of God. An unjust law is a code that is out of harmony with the moral law. To put it in the terms of St. Thomas Aquinas: An unjust law is a human law that is not rooted in eternal law and natural law. Any law that uplifts human personality is just. Any law that degrades human personality is unjust....

iakov the fool

 

[davidtitor]

I think, although we believe in God, we still need to obey the countries' rules. In fact, Jesus's rule for us if already beyond the laws, I don't think there is any conflict between God's will and the law.

 

[Jim Parker]

I think, although we believe in God, we still need to obey the countries' rules. In fact, Jesus's rule for us if already beyond the laws, I don't think there is any conflict between God's will and the law.

Everything the Nazis did to the Jews was legal according to their law.
In the USA it is legal to murder your infant by abortion.
In the USA, the government uses our tax money to fund abortion mills.

Do ya think there just might be a little conflict?

iakov the fool

 

[WIP]

Remember, this is the A&T forum. Please review the forum guidelines.

 

[Sinthesis]

Dan 1:19 - And the king communed with them; and among them all was found none like Daniel, Hananiah, Mishael, and Azariah: therefore stood they before the king.
Dan 1:20 - And in all matters of wisdom and understanding, that the king enquired of them, he found them ten times better than all the magicians and astrologers that were in all his realm.
Dan 1:21 - And Daniel continued even unto the first year of king Cyrus.
​

A sinful government of the people, by the people, and for the people is a reflection on us. Daniel served Babylon, and in doing so changed it. Prior to Christianity this change was still doomed, but today for us this change in hearts reflected in representative government can last. Fortunately our government provides a legal process for change to progressively align our country's rules to God's will.

 

[reba]

Dan 1:19 - And the king communed with them; and among them all was found none like Daniel, Hananiah, Mishael, and Azariah: therefore stood they before the king.
Dan 1:20 - And in all matters of wisdom and understanding, that the king enquired of them, he found them ten times better than all the magicians and astrologers that were in all his realm.
Dan 1:21 - And Daniel continued even unto the first year of king Cyrus.
​

A sinful government of the people, by the people, and for the people is a reflection on us. Daniel served Babylon, and in doing so changed it. Prior to Christianity this change was still doomed, but today for us this change in hearts reflected in representative government can last. Fortunately our government provides a legal process for change to progressively align our country's rules to God's will.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Dan 1:19 - And the king communed with them; and among them all was found none like Daniel, Hananiah, Mishael, and Azariah: therefore stood they before the king.
Dan 1:20 - And in all matters of wisdom and understanding, that the king enquired of them, he found them ten times better than all the magicians and astrologers that were in all his realm.
Dan 1:21 - And Daniel continued even unto the first year of king Cyrus.
​

A sinful government of the people, by the people, and for the people is a reflection on us. Daniel served Babylon, and in doing so changed it. Prior to Christianity this change was still doomed, but today for us this change in hearts reflected in representative government can last. Fortunately our government provides a legal process for change to progressively align our country's rules to God's will.

And in this case, what do you mean by God's will?

 

[Sinthesis]

And in this case, what do you mean by God's will?

Nailing down God's will is not something we are particularly good at. That doesn't mean we shouldn't do our best to identify it.

 

[Jim Parker]

Remember, this is the A&T forum. Please review the forum guidelines.

Please be more specific.

 

[WIP]

I began to notice too many opposing responses that were really nothing more than personal opinion and understanding and these types of responses typically take a discussion down a rat hole where two or more members are basically just arguing "I'm right and you're wrong." By showing the Scriptural reference to support why we post what we do, the argument is moved from one member against another member to one where each is evaluating his/her own understanding against Scripture itself. This makes the arguments less personal and therefore more likely to remain more civil.

From the guidelines;

• Original posts should reference specific scripture and what it is the member wants to say or ask about that scripture.
• Subsequent responses either opposing or adding additional information should include references to specific supportive scripture relevant to the thread and offer explanation of the member's understanding of how that scripture applies.
• Opinions are plenty and have little value so please do not state positions that have no basis in scripture.
• Do not use phrases such as, “You’re wrong.” This is insulting and inappropriate and there are nicer ways to disagree without being insulting.
• Once you have made a point, refrain from flooding the forum with numerous posts making the same point over and over with nothing new to support it.
• You may ask a member questions as to what they believe on certain topics relative to the subject of the thread, but please keep in mind the member is under no obligation to answer.
• Failing to answer someone’s question doesn’t necessarily amount to an admission of error or surrender but keep in mind that in any debate if you refuse to or can not answer a reasonable question, it may weaken your position.

Hope this helps.

 

[Jim Parker]

I began to notice too many opposing responses that were really nothing more than personal opinion and understanding and these types of responses typically take a discussion down a rat hole where two or more members are basically just arguing "I'm right and you're wrong." By showing the Scriptural reference to support why we post what we do, the argument is moved from one member against another member to one where each is evaluating his/her own understanding against Scripture itself. This makes the arguments less personal and therefore more likely to remain more civil.

From the guidelines;

• Original posts should reference specific scripture and what it is the member wants to say or ask about that scripture.
• Subsequent responses either opposing or adding additional information should include references to specific supportive scripture relevant to the thread and offer explanation of the member's understanding of how that scripture applies.
• Opinions are plenty and have little value so please do not state positions that have no basis in scripture.
• Do not use phrases such as, “You’re wrong.” This is insulting and inappropriate and there are nicer ways to disagree without being insulting.
• Once you have made a point, refrain from flooding the forum with numerous posts making the same point over and over with nothing new to support it.
• You may ask a member questions as to what they believe on certain topics relative to the subject of the thread, but please keep in mind the member is under no obligation to answer.
• Failing to answer someone’s question doesn’t necessarily amount to an admission of error or surrender but keep in mind that in any debate if you refuse to or can not answer a reasonable question, it may weaken your position.

Hope this helps.

Yes, it does. Thank you.

jim

 

[JohnDB]

Since the book of Daniel was mentioned...

It also is quoted as stating,"God sets up leaders and deposes them".

IOW a ruler is only in charge because God wishes it...and poor behavior can get a leader deposed easier than the effort God used to set them up as one.

Herod "that fox" died a most horrible death by even Roman standards. He rotted from the inside out for his crimes against God. It is a horrible thing to be in the hands of an angry God.

 

[OzSpen]

I believe the Bible is clear that we are not to obey governments when they sanction anything which runs contrary to God's word. (That even includes things like Trudeau's statement that he will force the wealthiest to pay more tax, when God's word is clear "The rich shall not give more and the poor shall not give less." Ex.30:15.)

For instance, John the Baptist condemned Herod for violation of Lev.18:16 in Mt.14:4. And Jesus, based upon Herod's unrighteousness, called him by the derogatory term "fox" in Luke 13:32. Our Lord and his cousin were not passive when the state broke God's law! I think also of the earliest days of the New Covenant era when believers would sooner be feed to animals than pay homage to Caesar by violating Phil. 2:9-11. I also think of the Justinian Code and the Theodosian Code whereby the later Roman rulers sought to apply the Bible to society. Not to mention Alfred the Great when he sought laws for England he gathered many Anglo-saxson laws, seeking to remove some which violated God's law, and prefixed them all with the 10 Commandments. Clearly, the Church has sought to reform society! How can a man's heart not be transformed without it also transforming the world around him?

Then I think of places in the OT where God says He is judging the unrighteous nations because they have violated His law (Lev.18:24, 27-28; Dt.8:20). In fact, all throughout the OT when God punishes nations its because they have sinned against Him!

As the Scriptures say we are God's light source to the world, so how can we be silent? God will judge societies because they reject Him and His ways! The point of the Great Commission is to disciple "nations" and teach those nations to "observe all things I have commanded"(Mt.28:19-20). Compare that with Psalm 2:10-12 where, once the Messiah has come (v6), earthly kings and judges are commanded to follow Him or "perish in the way."

This site contains good information on this subject https://lessermagistrate.com/

I also think of the Romans 13:4 passage. There the civil authorities are called "God'sminister/deacon (in the Greek)." Therefore, a civil magistrate is not Caesar's/PM's minister, nor the peoples' minister, but he is God's minister! Ultimately, he owes his allegiance to God! And it is because the civil ruler is "God's deacon" he is to punish evil in society, evil as define by God's word. Should he fail to do so he is in violation of his office and will bring judgment upon himself and society. And it is our duty, in whatever ways possible, to instruct them in these regards.

Of course, this means learning how to apply God's word to every area of life (2Cor.10:5-6) something the Church at large is lacking in today, my self included. We are not being taught how to apply the Bible in areas such as politics/state anymore. I recommend Samuel Rutherford's Lex, Rex or William Symington's Messiah the Prince (both are now public domain and may be read online and there are people reading their books on sermonaudio)

Paloma,

Over the years, I've thought deeply about this topic and have compiled a list of relevant biblical material for making ethical decisions, especially when there is a conflict between government and Scripture. I haven't always documented where I've obtained this information, but I've had a lot of help from Norman L Geisler 1989. Christian Ethics: Options and Issues. Leicester, England: Apollos (an imprint of Inter-Varsity Press) / Grand Rapids, Michigan: Baker Book House.

BIBLICAL DATA FOR MAKING ETHICAL DECISIONS: THERE ARE HIGHER MORAL LAWS

1. There are higher & lower moral laws.
Not all moral laws are of equal weight.

• Jesus spoke of the "weightier" matters of the law (Matt. 23:23) – and of the "least" (Matt. 5:19),
• and the "greatest" commandment (Matt. 22:36).
• He told Pilate that Judas had committed the "greater sin" (John 19:11).
• The Bible also speaks of the "greatest" virtue (I Cor. 13:13), - and even the "greater" acts of a given virtue--love (John 15:13).
• Jesus said there are at least three levels of sins with corresponding judgments (Matt. 5:22).
• The whole concept of degrees of punishment in hell (Matt. 5:22; Rom. 2:6; Rev. 20:12) and graded levels of regard in heaven (I Cor. 3:11-12) indicates that sins come in degrees.
• The fact that some sins call for excommunication (I Cor. 5) and others for death (I Cor. 11:30) also supports the general biblical pattern that all sins are not equal in weight.
• In fact, there is one sin so great as to be unforgivable (Mark. 3:29).
• Perhaps the clearest indication of higher and lower moral laws comes in Jesus' answer to the lawyer's question about the "greatest commandment" (Matt. 22:34-35). Jesus clearly stated that the "first" and "greatest" is over the "second"—that loving God is of supreme importance, and then beneath it comes loving one's neighbour. This same point is affirmed in Matt. 10:37.
• See also Prov. 6:16; I Tim. 1:15; I John 5:16.

2. There are unavoidable moral conflicts in the Bible.

(a) The story of Abraham & Isaac (Gen. 22) contains a real moral conflict. "You shall not murder (kill)" is a divine moral command (Ex. 20:13), and yet God commanded Abraham to kill his son, Isaac. That Abraham intended to kill Isaac is clear from the context (and from Heb. 11:19).

(b) The story of Samson contains a conflict of two divine commands. Samson committed a divinely approved suicide (Judg. 16:30) despite the moral prohibition against killing a human being, including oneself. Both commands were divine and moral--"Do not kill" and "Take your life"--yet when there was a real conflict between them, God apparently approved of Samson disregarding one in order to obey the other.

(c) The passage detailing Jephthah's sacrifice of his daughter (Judges 11) shows a real moral conflict between a vow to God and the command not to kill an innocent life. Here the Scripture appears to approve of Jephthah keeping the oath to kill.

(d) Other biblical illustrations in which individuals had to choose between lying and not helping to save a life. e.g. Hebrew midwives (Ex. 1) and Rahab (Josh. 2).

(e) There is a possible real moral conflict in the cross, one so great that many liberal theologians have considered the doctrine of the substitutionary atonement to be essentially immoral. The two moral principles are that the innocent should not be punished for sins he never committed, but that Christ was punished for our sins (Isa. 53; I Peter 2:24; 3:15; 2 Cor. 5:21).

(f) There are numerous cases in Scripture in which there is a real conflict between obeying God's command to submit to civil government and keeping one's duty to some other higher moral law. e.g. Hebrew midwives (Ex. 1); Jewish captives disregarded Nebuchadnezzar's command to worship the golden image of himself (Dan. 3). Daniel disregarded Darius's command (Dan. 6).

3. The most common "higher" moral laws.

(a) Love for God over love for human beings (Matt. 22:36-38; Luke 14:26).

(b) Obey God over obeying government (Rom. 13:1-2; Titus 3:1; Dan. 3 & 6; Acts 4-5).

(c) Mercy over truthfulness (Ex. 20:16; Eph. 4:25 compared with Hebrew midwives & Rahab). Corrie Ten Boom followed this ethical standard.

Sometimes when I leave my house I leave the lights turned on to save my property. This is intentional deception to save material things from the possibility of being stolen during a break-in. Why not do the same to save a life? Is not life worth more than my material goods? Aren't people more valuable than property? The above Scriptures confirm this view of higher and lower moral laws in ethical decision making where God's law is high than human-made governmental laws.

I would have joined Corrie ten Boom in saving the Jews in World War 2 and lying about whether I was hiding them, because of the higher moral law.

To answer the question, 'Are Christians to obey sinful governments?' my answer is, 'Yes, because all governments are sinful as they are led by sinful human beings'. However, are Christians to obey governments when they require sinful moral actions? Definitely No! This is because, 'We must obey God rather than any human authority' (Acts 5:29 NLT).

I have not dealt here with the issue of civil disobedience. That's for another topic.

Oz

 

[Jim Parker]

I believe the Bible is clear that we are not to obey governments when they sanction anything which runs contrary to God's word.

That would mean that no one would obey any government anywhere in the world.

 

[OzSpen]

That would mean that no one would obey any government anywhere in the world.

Jim,

Agreed. However, what did Peter and the apostles do when they were arrested brought to the Council. It is recorded: 'Peter and the apostles replied, "We must obey God rather than any human authority"' (Acts 5:29 NLT).

All human authorities are not sinless. However, if I'm required by my government to marry homosexuals (I have a marriage license), I will refuse and suffer the consequences. I must obey God on this issue and not my Australian government. We don't yet have legal homosexual marriage in this country.

There are other ethical issues that could bring me into a clash with human govt, including the need to refer on to an abortion clinic, support defacto relationships and illicit sex, etc. There are many challenges for evangelical believers in my country when we are dealing with a sinful government. Yesterday I uploaded a new article to my homepage that deals with one of the challenges I've faced: 'Queensland Senator bullying Queensland MPs'.

I'm in the midst of thinking through an article to address this matter raised in a newspaper article: Should we help paedophiles? What choice do we have?
What does that mean for governments if this view becomes rampant - paedophiles have no choice because they were born that way?

We live in a challenging world.

Oz

 

[Jim Parker]

Jim,
Agreed. However, what did Peter and the apostles do when they were arrested brought to the Council. It is recorded: 'Peter and the apostles replied, "We must obey God rather than any human authority"' (Acts 5:29 NLT).

Right. I was responding to a blanket statement.

All human authorities are not sinless.

I might phrase that, "No human authorities are sinless."

Should we help paedophiles? What choice do we have?

Yes. Help them. Help them up the gallows steps.

We live in a challenging world.

Yes we do. But, every now and then, there's a spark of hope. http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-35318392

jim

 

[Warrior4Jesus]

I can see there are many highly intelligent people on this forum and I am glad to have found you guy's and gal's. I clearly do not have the Intellectual knowledge that some of you have. I do however believe I have strong reasoning skills and powers of observation in line with knowledge of God's word. My belief is this regarding obeying a sinful government. If that which they ask you to do is against God's word than the clear answer is no. You do not obey. In the times to come I believe that following God when things are hard and you will suffer for it up to and including death will be what sets us apart from the false christian's. Maybe that's what God is trying to teach me now with my hardships. I have addressed that with myself and the jury is out still, but anyway back on topic. God's law is black and white as far as God is concerned and anytime there was a implied contradiction it was God's choice to do so and not for our own consideration to do so. God is not a man that he would lie so whatever he does is right, Holy, and Perfect. We as filthy rags righteous only in Christ Jesus don't get to make those decisions for him or for ourselves. Sometimes I think Christianity is simply suffering and you only have 2 choices. 1. suffer well and go to heaven or 2. suffer badly and suffer for eternity. But anyway Obey God rather than government and suffer what following God brings and try to suffer well.

 

[reba]

All governments are sinful ... just as all men are sinful.. I believe God placed me here i will do my best to be a good citizen where he has placed me.. my town my county my state ... although i do put out a small amount of effort to add the State of Jefferson to the other 50 .Lawfully done
Rom 13:1 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.
At this time this government has not challenged me to go against what i consider to be God's laws.. So until then i will obey to the best of abilities the laws around me...
and no one has the right to check my speedometer signed lead foot