Are Christains to support sinful governments?

[Warrior4Jesus]

Yep

 

[OzSpen]

Right. I was responding to a blanket statement.

I might phrase that, "No human authorities are sinless."

Yes. Help them. Help them up the gallows steps.

Yes we do. But, every now and then, there's a spark of hope. http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-35318392

jim

Jim,

Thank God there is a flicker of hope in Anglicanism worldwide as evidenced by the link you gave. The largest conservative Anglican diocese in the world is the Sydney Australia Anglicans.

However, Anglicanism Down Under is deeply divided over this issue, particularly among the liberal Anglicans. Here's an article from the priest of St John's Anglican Cathedral here in Brisbane: http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/que...ch-rights-anglican-leader-20120402-1w7fg.html

That view will split the Anglicans asunder here in Australia. Some of the Melbourne diocese is evangelical where the Ridley College is located, where the late Leon Morris used to teach.

This kind of division is not surprising as it is linked directly, in my understanding, to a demise of support for biblical authority in liberal Anglicanism.

Some thoughts from a fellow traveller.

Oz

 

[WIP]

Reminder: This is not the Lounge. It is the A&T forum and certain rules and guidelines must be followed. Thank you.

 

[Jim Parker]

Post is off topic and not in compliance with the forum guidelines. Please review the forum guidelines. WIP

 

[Jim Parker]

Please use the TWTS forum to bring questions about moderator action to the staff. See ToS 2.14. WIP

 

[reba]

Post # 45 is in violation of the guidelines

If you would be so kind, when you post such a comment, please refer specifically to the rule and/of guideline which has been infringed upon and what comment did so. It would be a great help to me.

Thanks

jim

Christian Theology is by definition the study of God through His word, the Bible. Apologetics goes hand in hand with theology as it is the branch of Christian theology which attempts to give a rational defense of the Christian faith. That makes the Apologetics and Theology forum unique from many of our other forums in that this is a place specifically for these types of discussions.

With this in mind, the following guidelines should be followed.

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[reba]

post #44 is in violation of the same guidelines

 

[reba]

closed for Moderator review

 

[WIP]

Post is reopened. Please follow the rules. Thank you.

 

[OzSpen]

(Post removed. This does not fit the A&T guidelines and is off topic. We have already discussed this in a private message and you are aware this is not the place to discuss it. Obadiah.)

 

[reba]

If I am to follow the requirement to quote Scripture, I can't provide answers to the non-Christian on how to test the reliability of the Old Testament or the New Testament, using criteria of historicity for any historical document.

I encourage you to allow for certain apologetic questions that do not require Scripture to establish common ground with an unbeliever. I'm thinking of questions such as:

• Who made God?
• Pollster guru, George Barna was authorised to ask the people what one questions they would ask God if they had they opportunity. The majority, by quite a margin, was: 'Why is there so much suffering in the world?' Why would the people choose such a question?

These kinds of issues can't be raised if you place an absolute requirement on me that I must quote Scripture when I ask them. This is not a realistic perspective for people who live in a post-Christian culture, as I do.

Oz

The topic of this thread is
Are Christains to support sinful governments?
Rom 13:1 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.

Who made God ?
For a man of good words i believe it wouldn't be to difficult to work that simple verse in...
Why is there so much suffering in the world?'
Gen 3:17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;

 

[reba]

Do not post another challenge to the guidelines in the A&T please take such a challenge to the TWITS


ADMIN

 

[OzSpen]

How are Christians in the USA responding to the Supreme Court's decision to legalise same-sex marriage? Isn't that a sinful govt decision? What happens when you speak out against this?

Down Under we've heard about the refusal for a baker to make a wedding cake for a gay marriage.

What would you and others do in that situation? Would you be prepared to go to court? (see 1 Pet 3:14 NLT)

Oz

 

[Jim Parker]

(Post removed. Continued refusal to follow the A&T guidelines after several requests have been made. Obadiah)

 

[Roro1972]

1st Corin 6:1
seems to be advising avoid the government if possible

 

[OzSpen]

1st Corin 6:1
seems to be advising avoid the government if possible

According to 1 Cor 6:1 (NIV), 'If any of you has a dispute with another, do you dare to take it before the ungodly for judgment instead of before the Lord’s people?' The issue is believers taking other believers to the law courts. That's the theme of 1 Cor 6:1-8 (NIV).

The issue is not teaching Christians to avoid government. It is saying that when Christians have a beef with other Christians, the place to deal with the matter is not to go to those who have no standing in the church (1 Cor 6:4 NIV). These Christians were defrauding other brothers and sisters in Christ and then trying to get justice in the secular court.

Paul is effectively saying that they have their priorities wrong and they should rather be wronged than go to secular courts to decide in conflicts (1 Cor 6:8 NIV).

In my understanding, it is not a statement to avoid government, but to avoid going to the secular courts to settle internal matters when believers get into strife with each other - into conflicts that involve fraudulent activity or wrong actions against another ( 1 Cor 6:8 NIV).

Oz

 

[Roro1972]

According to 1 Cor 6:1 (NIV), 'If any of you has a dispute with another, do you dare to take it before the ungodly for judgment instead of before the Lord’s people?' The issue is believers taking other believers to the law courts. That's the theme of 1 Cor 6:1-8 (NIV).

The issue is not teaching Christians to avoid government. It is saying that when Christians have a beef with other Christians, the place to deal with the matter is not to go to those who have no standing in the church (1 Cor 6:4 NIV). These Christians were defrauding other brothers and sisters in Christ and then trying to get justice in the secular court.

Paul is effectively saying that they have their priorities wrong and they should rather be wronged than go to secular courts to decide in conflicts (1 Cor 6:8 NIV).

In my understanding, it is not a statement to avoid government, but to avoid going to the secular courts to settle internal matters when believers get into strife with each other - into conflicts that involve fraudulent activity or wrong actions against another ( 1 Cor 6:8 NIV).

Oz

I was reading that verse in our time period where the courts are 1/3 of our government; not sure what part of the government the courts were back then. I see your point.
I do wish more Christians would abide by that teaching than run to our present day courts I feel it is all about money to Christian and non Christians today.

 

[Jim Parker]

Our Lord and his cousin were not passive when the state broke God's law!

But neither Jesus nor John broke the law. Calling Herod a "Fox" (Luk 13:32) was not a violation of any law neither was John's rebuke of Herod a violation of the law.(Mar 6:18) They were bold to do what God required of them without breaking the law.
Could that not be considered supporting a sinful government by urging the king to comply with God's law? It's not supporting their sin but encouraging them to govern righteously.

The word says we are to be submitted to the government.
Rom 13:1 (NKJV) Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God.
And Jesus said to, "Render therefore to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's.” (Mat 22:21; Mar 12:17; Luk 20:25)

I gather from those words that we should obey the law as long as it is not in conflict with God's law.

iakov the fool

 

[OzSpen]

But neither Jesus nor John broke the law. Calling Herod a "Fox" (Luk 13:32) was not a violation of any law neither was John's rebuke of Herod a violation of the law.(Mar 6:18) They were bold to do what God required of them without breaking the law.
Could that not be considered supporting a sinful government by urging the king to comply with God's law? It's not supporting their sin but encouraging them to govern righteously.

The word says we are to be submitted to the government.
Rom 13:1 (NKJV) Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God.
And Jesus said to, "Render therefore to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's.” (Mat 22:21; Mar 12:17; Luk 20:25)

I gather from those words that we should obey the law as long as it is not in conflict with God's law.

iakov the fool

Jim,

There are some challenging applications of this in my part of the world. We have no legal nudist beaches here in Queensland (Qld) but there are beaches where nudists visit - generally in secluded areas. Parts of Qld have the worst skin cancer rates in the world. See, Skin cancer hotspots in Queensland revealed. Alexandria Bay, being in the Sunshine Coast region, is in the second worst skin cancer (melanoma) region in Qld.

I was alerted to one such beach, Alexandria Bay, about 2 hours north of where I live as a place where some nudists hang out. I wrote back in Oct 15 to the State attorney-general to ask if the govt was considering changing legislation to allow nudist beaches. I gave my reasons why such beaches are not good for our State. Some of my reasons are in the article, Nudist beaches not smart idea for the Smart State.

Three days ago I received a phone call from somebody in the attorney-general's dept., assuring me that there was no plan to change legislation and since my letter was received, there have been 6 convictions of nudists breaking the law at Alexandra Bay.

It was pleasing to see some response from the govt, even if it took 3 months. I was told that the phone call will be confirmed with a letter. Will that take another 3 months?

Oz

 

[Randy]

Jesus on sinful leadership. Obey as a rule but don't follow what they do. Obviously there is a limit as you can't kill babies etc as Pharaoh commanded. But in general obey the law. Jesus was not leading a rebellion. He came to seek and save the lost.

Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples: 2“The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat.3So you must be careful to do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach.4They tie up heavy, cumbersome loads and put them on other people’s shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them.


Randy