I am not sure I understand what you are saying here. Can you clarify a little? Thanks.
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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
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How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
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Are Christians to keep the Sabbath?
- Thread starter Gordon
- Start date
I am not sure I understand what you are saying here. Can you clarify a little? Thanks.
smaller
Member
I would agree with you for example that the Law stands.
The Law maintains a continually adverse and <converse> relationship with sin and evil which does not change by showing up in the assembly on the Sabbath for example.
s
Well I do agree with this, keeping the Sabbath and going to a Holy Convocation (an assembly of the Ekklesia) is just what is expected of us. Only Christ's sacrifice can justify us before God. Question is who does He apply that sacrifice to? Just anyone, no matter what their actions? Or just to those trying to serve and obey Him?
*EDIT* Added Thought:
I think this is where...
Jas 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
Jas 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
comes in.
Now, what works "God hath before ordained" would that be?
Ecc 12:13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.
Ecc 12:14 For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.
smaller
Member
I agree that every jot and tittle of the Law stands fully secure presently.
The factual observation that is being put in play here is this:
Sin and evil which we all have and carry continually maintains an adverse/converse relationship with the Law. If you need a refresher on this matter glance through Romans 7 and see what happened with Paul 'internally' when the Law said do not lust and sin caused every manner of concupiscence to transpire within him.
If this is insufficient to make the point go read Matt. 5 about the 'thought' of adultery being adultery in heart. Jesus AMPLIFIED or MAGNIFIED the Law to be an internal matter of evil thoughts working in the heart. If you need more scriptures on the fact of evil thoughts being the origination point let me know.
Most in the legal obedience crowd have a hard time understanding that sin in thought is sin and is evil internally, and tend to relegate their legalness under the law to 'external measures only.' This is assuredly not the case.
The scriptures have concluded 'all,' that would be 'all' under sin. This conclusion does not change under Law or under Grace.
You can be fully assured that God in Christ has justified no sin or evil in any holder period and 'all' have been concluded under sin.
Many have a mistaken notion that justification means 'just as if I have never sinned.'
It's not.
Those who view justification in that way have merely 'excused' and 'covered up' the fact of having sin by the applications of justifying same. That never happened. God in Christ did not, does not and will not justify sin or evil in anyone ever.
Yet we all have sin regardless of standing under Law/Grace or any combination of the 2.
The sacrifice did not make you or anyone else sinless. Forgiven, assuredly. Sinless? Never.
You are missing the point entirely. Sin and evil continually maintain an adverse relationship with both Law and Grace.
I might see a very basic work under Law or Grace begins by speaking truthfully and honestly about the matters of having sin.
Those who seek to slip past this fact are more than likely pulling somebodies leg starting with their own.
One does not become 'legally obedient' to or on the Sabbath because to do so they would have to be 'sinless' and that the sin they have and carry somehow magically disappeared when they do so.
This does not happen. One can not notch off 'having sin' by Sabbath attendance law compliance. Technically under the Law of the Sabbath the mere thought of not showing up is a sin. The mere thought of not wanting to be in the assembly while being there is a sin.
Every believer that sits in the assembly on the Sabbath remains a sinner and therefore 'not' in legal compliance by doing so, as much as they might all like to believe otherwise.
s
Hello John
Heb.4:9 reads: "There remaineth therefore a rest for the people of God." You think it means the sabbath day. I repeat, the scripture reads it is "a rest", not "the sabbath", big difference. Your argument seems to be that the word comes from the Greek "sabbatismos," while the word "rest" in other passages is from the Greek "katapausis", thus the heavenly rest, and cannot be the "rest" of vs.9. But the word in vs.4 referring to God's rest on the 7th day, is from "katopausin." So according to you vs. 9 cannot be the 7th day rest. Sabbath in the NT comes from sabbaton, not sabbatismos. They had entered the 7th day rest and the Canaan rest, but a rest yet remained to be entered. That is the heavenly rest. Note, please, Paul said "Let us labor therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief", Heb.4:11. This is the rest spoken of a long time after the other rests, Heb.4:7,8. No, I don't think I'll be keeping the sabbath day as of yet.
As for Matt.5:17, you think all has not been fulfilled as per this passage, and you further think that since Christ has not yet returned is proof of your thinking. But for your thinking to stand you will have to find where God gave us the sabbath to keep until Jesus returns. Where is the passage stating the sabbath (7th day) is God's holy day this side the cross?
Matthew 5:17 reads: "Think not that I am come to destroy the law or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill, for verily I say unto you, till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law till all be fulfilled." You have missed the basic point. The verse says Jesus came to fulfill the LAW. He DID fulfill it. The passage does not say the law would not pass away. It says the law would not pass away ''TILL ALL BE FULFILLED." Jesus fulfilled the law, all of it, and it has passed away, all of it. Can you name one "jot"or "tittle" of the law Jesus did not fulfill?
Yes, I called the sabbath "your sabbath" as you have not found a passage which puts the 7th day sabbath this side the cross for us to keep. When one makes and teaches a doctrine not found in scripture it then becomes their doctrine. So, no, I cannot keep your sabbath "TILL" you show it this side the cross to be kept.
Heb.4:9 reads: "There remaineth therefore a rest for the people of God." You think it means the sabbath day. I repeat, the scripture reads it is "a rest", not "the sabbath", big difference. Your argument seems to be that the word comes from the Greek "sabbatismos," while the word "rest" in other passages is from the Greek "katapausis", thus the heavenly rest, and cannot be the "rest" of vs.9. But the word in vs.4 referring to God's rest on the 7th day, is from "katopausin." So according to you vs. 9 cannot be the 7th day rest. Sabbath in the NT comes from sabbaton, not sabbatismos. They had entered the 7th day rest and the Canaan rest, but a rest yet remained to be entered. That is the heavenly rest. Note, please, Paul said "Let us labor therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief", Heb.4:11. This is the rest spoken of a long time after the other rests, Heb.4:7,8. No, I don't think I'll be keeping the sabbath day as of yet.
As for Matt.5:17, you think all has not been fulfilled as per this passage, and you further think that since Christ has not yet returned is proof of your thinking. But for your thinking to stand you will have to find where God gave us the sabbath to keep until Jesus returns. Where is the passage stating the sabbath (7th day) is God's holy day this side the cross?
Matthew 5:17 reads: "Think not that I am come to destroy the law or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill, for verily I say unto you, till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law till all be fulfilled." You have missed the basic point. The verse says Jesus came to fulfill the LAW. He DID fulfill it. The passage does not say the law would not pass away. It says the law would not pass away ''TILL ALL BE FULFILLED." Jesus fulfilled the law, all of it, and it has passed away, all of it. Can you name one "jot"or "tittle" of the law Jesus did not fulfill?
Yes, I called the sabbath "your sabbath" as you have not found a passage which puts the 7th day sabbath this side the cross for us to keep. When one makes and teaches a doctrine not found in scripture it then becomes their doctrine. So, no, I cannot keep your sabbath "TILL" you show it this side the cross to be kept.
Heb 4:9 plainly says that there remains a keeping of a Sabbath for the people of God. Interestingly enough, it has always been the "test" Commandment...
Exo 16:4 Then said the LORD unto Moses, Behold, I will rain bread from heaven for you; and the people shall go out and gather a certain rate every day, that I may prove them, whether they will walk in my law, or no.
Exo 16:5 And it shall come to pass, that on the sixth day they shall prepare that which they bring in; and it shall be twice as much as they gather daily.
New International Version (©1984)
Then the LORD said to Moses, "I will rain down bread from heaven for you. The people are to go out each day and gather enough for that day. In this way I will test them and see whether they will follow my instructions.
New Living Translation (©2007)
Then the LORD said to Moses, "Look, I'm going to rain down food from heaven for you. Each day the people can go out and pick up as much food as they need for that day. I will test them in this to see whether or not they will follow my instructions.
English Standard Version (©2001)
Then the LORD said to Moses, “Behold, I am about to rain bread from heaven for you, and the people shall go out and gather a day’s portion every day, that I may test them, whether they will walk in my law or not.
New American Standard Bible (©1995)
Then the LORD said to Moses, "Behold, I will rain bread from heaven for you; and the people shall go out and gather a day's portion every day, that I may test them, whether or not they will walk in My instruction.
GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
The LORD said to Moses, "I'm going to send you food from heaven like rain. Each day the people should go out and gather only what they need for that day. In this way I will test them to see whether or not they will follow my instructions.
American Standard Version
Then said Jehovah unto Moses, Behold, I will rain bread from heaven for you; and the people shall go out and gather a day's portion every day, that I may prove them, whether they will walk in my law, or not.
Douay-Rheims Bible
And the Lord said to Moses: Behold I will rain bread from heaven for you: let the people go forth, and gather what is sufficient for every day: that I may prove them whether they will walk in my law, or not.
Darby Bible Translation
Then said Jehovah to Moses, Behold, I will rain bread from heaven for you; and the people shall go out and gather the daily need on its day, that I may prove them, whether they will walk in my law, or not.
English Revised Version
Then said the LORD unto Moses, Behold, I will rain bread from heaven for you; and the people shall go out and gather a day's portion every day, that I may prove them, whether they will walk in my law, or no.
Webster's Bible Translation
Then said the LORD to Moses, Behold, I will rain bread from heaven for you; and the people shall go out and gather a certain rate every day, that I may prove them, whether they will walk in my law, or not.
World English Bible
Then Yahweh said to Moses, "Behold, I will rain bread from the sky for you, and the people shall go out and gather a day's portion every day, that I may test them, whether they will walk in my law, or not.
Young's Literal Translation
And Jehovah saith unto Moses, 'Lo, I am raining to you bread from the heavens -- and the people have gone out and gathered the matter of a day in its day -- so that I try them whether they walk in My law, or not;
Some are just not able...
Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
The carnal mind is the enemy of God and cannot be subject to the law of God.
Grace is coming to Jesus by faith and freely receiving the "forgiveness of sins"
Once done your sins are forgiven just like the man on the cross next to Jesus.
The commands of God are "Love"
If one states now that your a christian you must keep the sabbath to remain in Gods love they have walked away from Grace. Keeping the sabbath is the absence of work (even meals should be prepared in advance) not going to church on a sunday.
Laws that address immorality as noted in the NT by the Apostles haven't changed (we are not free to sin) And the law of Love is held as a command from the Lord and the Apostles.
The sabbath was made for man not man for the sabbath.
I don't keep the sabbath. I have never kept the sabbath. Yet I have the Spirit of Christ in me and love for the Lord. Ref:Are Christians to keep the Sabbath?
Randy
Would you say the same about the 5th Commandment? How about the 6th? How about the 7th?
We are not even talking about the same day here. The Sabbath is far more than abstaining from work, it is a picture of the Millenium when Christ will be here on earth as King of Kings and Lord of Lords...
Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
Col 2:17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.
Yes it was, it was made for man at creation and nothing concerning the day or the Command has changed has it?
I'll let Paul answer that one...
Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
Heb 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;
Theodore A. Jones
Member
",but ye are dull of hearing.'' Heb.5:11c
Rather than take up space with redundancy, I will direct you to post #396 which does just that. Apparently you didn't read it.
I gave Paul's answer in regard to your question. The reality is found in Christ. Not in keeping religious ceremonies which never made anyone perfect. So you teach when one comes to Christ then they must keep the sabbath to remain in the Lord's love? You have fallen away from grace.
Randy
Would you say the same thing about the 6th or 7th commandment?
Would you same the same for a new moon celebration or other religious festival as they are spoken of together and in the same context. How about what we eat and drink? Again spoken together in the same context.
16 Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day.
In answer to your question neither the 6th nor 7th commandments speak to me of a celebration or religious festival. They speak of hate and sin. So yes to disobey them is very serious. I don't believe its possible to love your neighbor and turn around and murder your neighbor or sleep with their wife. Do you? In fact I would state those who have the Spirit of Christ in them are unlikely to ever do such a thing. We know no murderer has eternal life in them as is written in 1 John.
Randy
How do you differentiate which commandments are still in force and which are done away?
And with that, He said that not one jot or tittle would pass from the law...
Mat 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
Mat 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Has all been fulfilled? One has only to read Mat 24 or Rev 19 to discern that all is not fulfilled.
Dear John--
Of Matt.5:17, Jesus was speaking of Himself--"think not that I am come to destroy the law---I am not come to destroy but to fulfill--." Is there a difference between destroying something and fulfilling it? Certainly there is and further, I know you know there is. If one keeps an appointment one has not destroyed it, he has fulfilled it, and if not why not? Can you name ONE thing of the law (Moses) Jesus did not fulfill? Name one. Jesus said He "came" and He has went. Tell us, did Jesus do what He said He would do when He came?
And, why haven't you answered what I last wrote on Heb.4?
Of Matt.5:17, Jesus was speaking of Himself--"think not that I am come to destroy the law---I am not come to destroy but to fulfill--." Is there a difference between destroying something and fulfilling it? Certainly there is and further, I know you know there is. If one keeps an appointment one has not destroyed it, he has fulfilled it, and if not why not? Can you name ONE thing of the law (Moses) Jesus did not fulfill? Name one. Jesus said He "came" and He has went. Tell us, did Jesus do what He said He would do when He came?
And, why haven't you answered what I last wrote on Heb.4?