journeymanisnothing
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This is frustrating. I'm going for for a walk
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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
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Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
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Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?
Read through the following study by Tenchi for more on this topic
https://christianforums.net/threads/without-the-holy-spirit-we-can-do-nothing.109419/
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How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
Join Sola Scriptura for a discussion on the subject
https://christianforums.net/threads/anointed-preaching-teaching.109331/#post-1912042
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Are Doctrines affected by Modern Versions?
- Thread starter reddogs
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reddogs
Member
He suffered the wages of sin that we deserved, and yet had no sin...
journeymanisnothing
Member
No. He didn't "suffer the wages of sin"...because He had no sin.
The law is only made for guilty people,
For the law was not intended for people who do what is right. It is for people who are lawless and rebellious, who are ungodly and sinful, who consider nothing sacred and defile what is holy, who kill their father or mother or commit other murders. 1Tim.1:9 NLT
So God in flesh is without sin. Do you understand reddogs?
God in flesh was sinned against by His creation.
Jesus turned His cheek to the lawbreakers. So I think it's better to see my sin against God as this,
I gave my back to the smiters, and my cheeks to them that plucked off the hair: I hid not my face from shame and spitting. Isa.50:6 KJV
Tthe Father was not rejoicing at His Son Jesus being tormented. No father would be and the Messiah said as much,
If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him? Mt.7:11 KJV
The Holy Spirit indwells believers and believers (both men and women) Our Christs' church. The church is referred to as our mother, our sister and the bride of Christ.
As Christians we need to understand the pain over a woman whose child has gone into a sinful lifestyle. Look a decent parent we should be in unison with that Spirit of Christ in us.
The gospel is that our Father is pleased with us as we follow His Son.
He had to suffer for our sins to make atonement. If he didn't do it for that reason, then none of us are saved and never will be.
Isa 53:5 But he was pierced for our transgressions; he was crushed for our iniquities; upon him was the chastisement that brought us peace, and with his wounds we are healed.
Isa 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned—every one—to his own way; and the LORD has laid on him the iniquity of us all.
...
Isa 53:7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth; like a lamb that is led to the slaughter, and like a sheep that before its shearers is silent, so he opened not his mouth.
Isa 53:8 By oppression and judgment he was taken away; and as for his generation, who considered that he was cut off out of the land of the living, stricken for the transgression of my people?
Isa 53:9 And they made his grave with the wicked and with a rich man in his death, although he had done no violence, and there was no deceit in his mouth.
Isa 53:10 Yet it was the will of the LORD to crush him; he has put him to grief; when his soul makes an offering for guilt, he shall see his offspring; he shall prolong his days; the will of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
Isa 53:11 Out of the anguish of his soul he shall see and be satisfied; by his knowledge shall the righteous one, my servant, make many to be accounted righteous, and he shall bear their iniquities.
Isa 53:12 Therefore I will divide him a portion with the many, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong, because he poured out his soul to death and was numbered with the transgressors; yet he bore the sin of many, and makes intercession for the transgressors. (ESV)
Mat 1:21 She will bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus, for he will save his people from their sins.” (ESV)
Luk 22:19 And he took bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it and gave it to them, saying, “This is my body, which is given for you. Do this in remembrance of me.”
Luk 22:20 And likewise the cup after they had eaten, saying, “This cup that is poured out for you is the new covenant in my blood. (ESV)
Joh 1:29 The next day he saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, “Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world! (ESV)
Rom 5:8 but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
Rom 5:9 Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God.
Rom 5:10 For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life.
Rom 5:11 More than that, we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.
Rom 5:12 Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned—
…
Rom 5:15 But the free gift is not like the trespass. For if many died through one man's trespass, much more have the grace of God and the free gift by the grace of that one man Jesus Christ abounded for many.
Rom 5:16 And the free gift is not like the result of that one man's sin. For the judgment following one trespass brought condemnation, but the free gift following many trespasses brought justification.
Rom 5:17 For if, because of one man's trespass, death reigned through that one man, much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man Jesus Christ. (ESV)
2Co 5:14 For the love of Christ controls us, because we have concluded this: that one has died for all, therefore all have died;
2Co 5:15 and he died for all, that those who live might no longer live for themselves but for him who for their sake died and was raised.
…
2Co 5:21 For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God. (ESV)
Col 2:13 And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses,
Col 2:14 by canceling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands. This he set aside, nailing it to the cross. (ESV)
Heb 13:11 For the bodies of those animals whose blood is brought into the holy places by the high priest as a sacrifice for sin are burned outside the camp.
Heb 13:12 So Jesus also suffered outside the gate in order to sanctify the people through his own blood.
Heb 13:13 Therefore let us go to him outside the camp and bear the reproach he endured. (ESV)
1Pe 3:18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit, (ESV)
1Jn 4:9 In this the love of God was made manifest among us, that God sent his only Son into the world, so that we might live through him.
1Jn 4:10 In this is love, not that we have loved God but that he loved us and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins. (ESV)
Rev 1:5 and from Jesus Christ the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of kings on earth. To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood (ESV)
Some things aren't that clear in Scripture and confusion arises based on what different verses and passages say, but this cannot be any clearer. Jesus died for our sins, taking the penalty due us that he didn't deserve, to be a propitiation for our sins and give us the eternal life that we don't deserve--"the righteous for the unrighteous," freeing "us from our sins by his blood" and being "the propitiation for our sins," so "that in him we might become the righteousness of God."
That is the gospel. That is good news indeed.
How is that the gospel? That is works salvation. That's not good news at all.
[Are Doctrines affected by Modern Versions?]
If you mean Christian doctrines biblically secure, then long answer short, No.
Of course, a lot of pious additions creeped in to the manuscripts, and some text even got dropped along the way. The KJV has a little text shaken in, and a little shaken out, and though produced by Anglicanism, was a fairly substantial work, forced somewhat upon the British public by the hierarchical establishment, but after about 150 years it did become well respected. Still, among others John Wesley disagreed with it on many texts. It is still usable with care, especially care as regards evangelism and new believers. The Circumcision Party tried to force Moses upon Christians and pre-Christians alike. Why force the C17 language upon Christians and pre-Christians alike? For his part, Paul, et al, spoke the then common language, so as not to present the stumbling block of language. The NKJV (and some KJV spinoffs) helps at least in translation, even if textually sometimes misleading.
On 1 Jhn.4:3, the NIV does not take a swipe at Christ’s deity (or the lesser idea, divinity), which it affirms for 1 Jhn.4:2. It does take a swipe at men’s additions to God’s holy word. But is it not better to hear what only John wrote, instead of reading what some later scribe added? The NIV follows John Wycliffe on this point. Did Wycliffe take a swipe at Christ’s deity by mentioning ‘flesh’ (σαρχ) in v2 but not in v3?
The doctrine of the incarnation is strong in the NIV, as is the doctrine of Christ’s deity, on which the KJV is sadly rather weak (see https://archive.org/details/the-words-gone-global-exploring-bible-versions-2017-231024: p119-1).
On Ps.12:6-7, I see you are using an old citation, rather than personally accessing available readings. The assurance of the godly ultimately lay in God’s promises, and indeed the Hebrew should perhaps be translated as [promises], not [words]. It was about Yahweh’s spoken words, his spoken promises (eg v5), within the psalm’s context of the righteous being under attack from an evil generation (compare Pr.30:11-4). The NIV 1984 makes fine sense of what the psalmist was saying, but not perhaps for what proof-texters might wish to say. The psalmist was not writing a treatise about inerrancy of Scripture.
One can spend much wasteful time on rather exhaustive lists of texts. OK, 1 Tm.3:16 is textually uncertain, and the Greek manuscripts vary. The Q is, What did Paul write? Most godly translators, with a far better cache and understanding of texts, opt for reading [he]. Why? Because they seek to say what Paul said, not what someone like Mrs. Riplinger said—yep, I’ve read her and several like her. Arguably the term [God] would send the wrong theological signals in Paul’s context. Like the NIV, Wycliffe did not read [God]. Did Wycliffe “deny that Jesus is God”?
Would you dismiss [son of man] references in the KJV (eg Mt.9:6; 12:8; Jhn.3:13), as if they deny the deificity of Jesus? Or is it simply that because some scribe switched Jhn.9:35 to [son of God], anyone who prefers John to that scribe somehow denies the deificity of Jesus? Why should we follow the Roman Catholic [son of God] text here, simply because the KJV did? For the Gospels the KJV has 28 [son of God] texts and 80 [son of man] texts. For the Gospels the NIV has 22 [son of God] texts and 78 [son of man] texts. Is that not simply a case of translators paring back scribal additions made in the past and correcting a few other errors, of translators who happy affirm the biblicality of both phrases? Big deal?
journeymanisnothing
Member
And again the seriousness of partaking of the the bread and wine and remembrance of Christ while living in sin.
Not without the sinner repenting. I'm not going through what the law says again how about the Day of Atonement.
Well my friend you can apply the gospel Jesus taught to the rest of the verses you cited because they fit perfectly and sensibly.
journeymanisnothing
Member
Sorry Free. I lost most of my last post because it was too long and I had to split it up and I deleted it.
And again the seriousness of partaking of the the bread and wine and remembrance of Christ while living in sin.
Not without the sinner repenting. I'm not going through what the law says again how about the Day of Atonement.
Well my friend you can apply the gospel Jesus taught to the rest of the verses you cited because they fit perfectly and sensibly.
But that doesn't address what Jesus said, namely, that his body and blood were given for us. So, what does that mean? The account in Matthew tells us:
Mat 26:26 Now as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and after blessing it broke it and gave it to the disciples, and said, “Take, eat; this is my body.”
Mat 26:27 And he took a cup, and when he had given thanks he gave it to them, saying, “Drink of it, all of you,
Mat 26:28 for this is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins. (ESV)
This is in full agreement, as with all the passages I've given, with Heb 9:
Heb 9:22 Indeed, under the law almost everything is purified with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins.
...
Heb 9:26 for then he would have had to suffer repeatedly since the foundation of the world. But as it is, he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
Heb 9:26 for then he would have had to suffer repeatedly since the foundation of the world. But as it is, he has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
Heb 9:28 so Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him. (ESV)
Of course, that goes without saying. But, again, that doesn't address what John the Baptist says: "“Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!" Why would he call him "the Lamb of God, who takes away the sins of the world"?
How about going through what the law says is necessary for atonement? You might find something in there about lambs, particularly ones without defect.
But what is the gospel?
journeymanisnothing
Member
Ok. I have to do this a comment at a time because these posts are too long.
Do you agree?
I agree, but "atonement" is being made right with God. Any person atoned for will be made into the image of Christ.
Do you agree?
journeymanisnothing
Member
Yes and again, if our Savior didn't put up with mankinds sin against Him.....you and I wouldn't be here.
Are we agreed?
journeymanisnothing
Member
Yes and again the alternative to not wanting to be spit on is close the mouth of the spitter forever.
Will you agree so far?
journeymanisnothing
Member
And again "the chastisement that brings us peace" is described in Hebrews chapters 5 and 12.
And please understand God as a Man didn't need to learn or have faith because He's The Great I Am.
Is there a problem yet?
journeymanisnothing
Member
Yes and again please be aware that the "iniquity His Father laid on Him is the iniquity sinners have for God.
It's not the anger God has for sinners.
It's the anger sinners have for God.
The utter hated of God is what some of the elite of society had and displayed it for our King.
From the Sons' point, which is His Fathers' point, because They have One Mind.....
I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven. For he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. Mt.5:44-45 ESV
Now it makes sense to you and me as fathers who love our children. And you said you are a grandfather like me so we know how we would feel if someone attacked our family the way Jesus was.
I will take no less than an amen on this point.
journeymanisnothing
Member
Yes and again lets' think about what the law says here.
They were waiting for the Messiah. The Messiah is revered in Judaism as greater than any other prophet including Moses or Abraham.
So the Messiah said nothing.
By Rabbinic Judaism, the greatest Rabbi of the Torah will be the Messiah.
So now we can agree that if the law Keeper has opened His mouth about His law, those sinners would have been charged, tried, convicted and executed by the law.
Are we still good? I'm hoping we're in accord.
journeymanisnothing
Member
Yes and again it was the judgment of liars. That's very important not to ignore. Ok?
journeymanisnothing
Member
Yes and again the OT prophets knew about their coming Kings' sufferings
inquiring what person or time the Spirit of Christ in them was indicating when he predicted the sufferings of Christ and the subsequent glories. 1Pet.1:11 ESV
Jesus praised His prophets and told His apostles they entered the prophets labor who came before them. We know about God from the Jewish authors so,
to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: Rom.2:10
This is logical as long as someone thinks God is real and loves me in spite of my sin.....right grandpa?
journeymanisnothing
Member
Yes and again, partaking of the bread and wine in remembrance of His sacrifice is a confession that Jesus' followers will suffer for him as He did. So again,
For anyone who eats and drinks without discerning the body eats and drinks judgment on himself. 1Cor.11:29 ESV
Can we agree that all through The Bible our Father isn't happy with people who attacked the prophets and apostles and anyone who was persecuted for telling others what God wanted them to say?
And again, many people believed also.
journeymanisnothing
Member
And again our Lord showed how God is crushed and grieved even by the sin of one of His creation gone astray.
And again, what descent parent wouldn't be?
journeymanisnothing
Member
Yes and again on the Day of Atonement the only "guilt offered" (or admitted to) was that of the sinner confessing his wrongdoing over the Living Goat.
The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit;
a broken and contrite heart, O God, you will not despise. Psa.51:17 ESV
See? Our sacrifice is a truly repentant heart for having sinned against God.
His sacrifice is putting up with the reasons why we are truly repentant.
Ok?
journeymanisnothing
Member
Yes and again His offspring overcame all of the enemy as Jesus said they would... and did before Him and after Him by faith in Him.
The rest is just more of the aame