Why do people change this passage On the Forum?

[Free]

Some believe you must confess Jesus is God to be born again.

But here are the scriptures:

And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God:......John 4:3
1 John 4:15
Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.

So does one need to have a revelation of this to be saved?

Or does on need to:confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.

Since you don't seem interested in answering my question, let's look at the context of the verses you gave, as well as additional passages. To simply say "But here are the scriptures," while ignoring their immediate context and the context of the rest of the NT, is to take those two verses out of context.

1Jn 4:1 Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world.
1Jn 4:2 By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God,
1Jn 4:3 and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you heard was coming and now is in the world already.
1Jn 4:4 Little children, you are from God and have overcome them, for he who is in you is greater than he who is in the world.
1Jn 4:5 They are from the world; therefore they speak from the world, and the world listens to them.
1Jn 4:6 We are from God. Whoever knows God listens to us; whoever is not from God does not listen to us. By this we know the Spirit of truth and the spirit of error. (ESV)

In order to determine what John is saying in verse 3, we need to look at the context. Right in verse 1 we see what John means by "spirits." He says to no "believe every spirit, but to test the spirits to see whether they are from God." And then he gives the reason why we are to do that--"for many false prophets have gone out into the world." That is the main reason and context--false prophets.

What that means then is that the spirit from which a false prophet speaks needs to be tested to see if it is from God. And what is that test? It's in verses 2 and 3. That is, the spirit of false prophet will "not confess Jesus" and so "is not from God." That is, the prophet himself will deny that Jesus is from God, that he came in the flesh. The spirit of a true prophet, that is, the prophet himself, will confess "that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh."

1Jn 4:15 Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God. (ESV)

Most important to understanding this is what "Son of God" means. First, we know that Jesus is the one and only, unique Son of God (John 1:14, 18; 20:31). Second, we know that this strongly implies his deity (John 1:1-3, 10, 15, 18; 5:17-18; 10:33, 36).

We also have Rom. 10:9-10, 13:

Rom 10:9 because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
Rom 10:10 For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved.
...
Rom 10:13 For “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.” (ESV)

Paul is clearly drawing a parallel between confessing "with your mouth that Jesus is Lord" and "everyone who calls on the name of the Lord [YHWH] will be saved," from Joel 2:32. It is important to note that in the Septuagint, YHWH ("LORD" typically in English translations) gets translated into the Greek as kurios ("Lord" in English), which is also the way it remains in the NT Greek. We have to be careful because "Lord" or "lord" in the NT doesn't always refer to Yahweh, but it can and does.

And then there is:

1Co 12:3 Therefore I want you to understand that no one speaking in the Spirit of God ever says “Jesus is accursed!” and no one can say “Jesus is Lord” except in the Holy Spirit. (ESV)

So, in the very least, if one wants to argue that a person doesn't have to confess that Jesus is God in order to be saved, at some point, they can only say that Jesus is God if they are saved.

 

[Corinth77777]

Since you don't seem interested in answering my question,

Do you hear how you come accross?

let's look at the context of the verses you gave, as well as additional passages. To simply say "But here are the scriptures," while ignoring their immediate context and the context of the rest of the NT, is to take those two verses out of context.

1Jn 4:1 Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world.
1Jn 4:2 By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God,
1Jn 4:3 and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you heard was coming and now is in the world already.
1Jn 4:4 Little children, you are from God and have overcome them, for he who is in you is greater than he who is in the world.
1Jn 4:5 They are from the world; therefore they speak from the world, and the world listens to them.
1Jn 4:6 We are from God. Whoever knows God listens to us; whoever is not from God does not listen to us. By this we know the Spirit of truth and the spirit of error. (ESV)

In order to determine what John is saying in verse 3, we need to look at the context. Right in verse 1 we see what John means by "spirits." He says to no "believe every spirit, but to test the spirits to see whether they are from God." And then he gives the reason why we are to do that--"for many false prophets have gone out into the world." That is the main reason and context--false prophets.

What that means then is that the spirit from which a false prophet speaks needs to be tested to see if it is from God. And what is that test? It's in verses 2 and 3. That is, the spirit of false prophet will "not confess Jesus" and so "is not from God." That is, the prophet himself will deny that Jesus is from God, that he came in the flesh. The spirit of a true prophet, that is, the prophet himself, will confess "that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh."

1Jn 4:15 Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God. (ESV)

Most important to understanding this is what "Son of God" means. First, we know that Jesus is the one and only, unique Son of God (John 1:14, 18; 20:31). Second, we know that this strongly implies his deity (John 1:1-3, 10, 15, 18; 5:17-18; 10:33, 36).

We also have Rom. 10:9-10, 13:

Rom 10:9 because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
Rom 10:10 For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved.
...
Rom 10:13 For “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.” (ESV)

Paul is clearly drawing a parallel between confessing "with your mouth that Jesus is Lord" and "everyone who calls on the name of the Lord [YHWH] will be saved," from Joel 2:32. It is important to note that in the Septuagint, YHWH ("LORD" typically in English translations) gets translated into the Greek as kurios ("Lord" in English), which is also the way it remains in the NT Greek. We have to be careful because "Lord" or "lord" in the NT doesn't always refer to Yahweh, but it can and does.

And then there is:

 

[Free]

Do you hear how you come accross?

Yes. Do you hear how you come across? "Read"

I asked you a question six hours ago and you've made several posts since, without responding to my question. So, it seems that you didn't want to answer it, but further clarification is need since you have taken very little into account to come to your understanding of what 1 John 4:3, 15 are saying.

 

[Whatever]

What Corinth77777 seems to be asking is when it says:
And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God:......John 4:3
1 John 4:15
Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.

Why do some people change that into "you must believe that Jesus is God." Since these passages don't directly say that Jesus is God or divine

Sounds like a Jehovah's Witness kind of question.

 

[Hidden In Him]

Do you hear how you come accross?

Yes. Do you hear how you come across? "Read"

Let there be peace in the valley, LoL.

1Jn 4:1 Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world.
1Jn 4:2 By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God,
1Jn 4:3 and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you heard was coming and now is in the world already.
1Jn 4:4 Little children, you are from God and have overcome them, for he who is in you is greater than he who is in the world.
1Jn 4:5 They are from the world; therefore they speak from the world, and the world listens to them.
1Jn 4:6 We are from God. Whoever knows God listens to us; whoever is not from God does not listen to us. By this we know the Spirit of truth and the spirit of error. (ESV)

In order to determine what John is saying in verse 3, we need to look at the context. Right in verse 1 we see what John means by "spirits." He says to no "believe every spirit, but to test the spirits to see whether they are from God." And then he gives the reason why we are to do that--"for many false prophets have gone out into the world." That is the main reason and context--false prophets.

What that means then is that the spirit from which a false prophet speaks needs to be tested to see if it is from God. And what is that test? It's in verses 2 and 3. That is, the spirit of false prophet will "not confess Jesus" and so "is not from God." That is, the prophet himself will deny that Jesus is from God, that he came in the flesh. The spirit of a true prophet, that is, the prophet himself, will confess "that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh."

Free. To clarify, you do agree that the spirits that need to be tested in these verses are spiritual (i.e. potentially demonic) and not human, correct?

 

[Hidden In Him]

Sounds like a Jehovah's Witness kind of question.

Whatever, it might be jumping to conclusions to assume Corinth is JW. I don't recall him ever teaching JW doctrines.

 

[Whatever]

Whatever, it might be jumping to conclusions to assume Corinth is JW. I don't recall him ever teaching JW doctrines.

I wasn't assuming he was JW. Just saying that the question sounds like something a JW or some other unorthodox faith might say.

 

[Corinth77777]

Whatever, it might be jumping to conclusions to assume Corinth is JW. I don't recall him ever teaching JW doctrines.

What Corinth77777 seems to be asking is when it says:
And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God:......John 4:3
1 John 4:15
Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.

Why do some people change that into "you must believe that Jesus is God." Since these passages don't directly say that Jesus is God or divine

Sounds like a Jehovah's Witness kind of question.

Lol, it really does though.. ACCEPT FOR YOUR ADDING Of divine.
But I believe Jesus is divine and resurrected in bodily form. I also think that because his father is God He is God..

But How?
Randy stung my mind a while back in another thread in somethings I wanted to explore.. about the:

Holies of Holies (Who was in the the Holies of Holies?) God the father of all spirits ...or the annoited Chirst the Messiah.

Honestly I want to know what I believe and why I believe it.

How is the father God, God?
And How is the son, God?
And if God is unbodily power then
How would God the father be God the son.

These questions came to me when He posted this passage: 1 Corinthians 8:6

yet to us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we unto him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, are all things, and we through him.
I think we should ask questions,
And there may be someone annoited, learned and regenerated that can give an answer.

That scripture might make anyone think how this might reflect on other scriptures.

Now this is how Willard a " Baptist" Theologian, philosopher, and Siminary professor defines the Trinity by Al: "Dallas Willard understood the Trinity as a model for life and Christian community, emphasizing theimportance of mutual love and humility, and the idea that God's kingdom is a realm of His effective will where His desires are carried out."

Also

"The Trinity is a society of 3 persons in one substance, bound together by love."

"The Trinity is real. The cosmos environing us actually is, beyond all else, a self-sufficing community of unspeakably magnificent personal beings of boundless love, knowledge, and power. God is a sweet society of Persons: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. There is no subordination in the Trinity, not because of some metaphysical fact but because they won’t put up with it."


So if I were to describe the Trinity I first would want to know why I believe there is a trinity.

.....

 

[Free]

Free. To clarify, you do agree that the spirits that need to be tested in these verses are spiritual (i.e. potentially demonic) and not human, correct?

Directly, John is referring to either humans or doctrines, perhaps both. Indirectly, by extension, he is referring to the Spirit or spirits of teachers or prophets by which they proclaim their “truths.” That is to say, one can know whether a prophet is false or true by whether or not he believes Jesus came in the flesh, and that points to the spirit by which that prophet speaks.

 

[Corinth77777]

.

Yes. Do you hear how you come across? "Read"

I asked you a question six hours ago and you've made several posts since, without responding to my question. So, it seems that you didn't want to answer it, but further clarification is need since you have taken very little into account to come to your understanding of what 1 John 4:3, 15 are saying.

If your first post come off bad then you are not one I want to deal with. I can't feel the love..... and I like my peace...

 

[Free]

Honestly I want to know what I believe and why I believe it.

How is the father God, God?

Because he has the nature that makes God God.

And How is the son, God?

Because all sons are of the same nature as their fathers. It cannot be otherwise.

And if God is unbodily power then
How would God the father be God the son.

The Father wouldn’t be (and isn’t) the Son.

These questions came to me when He posted this passage: 1 Corinthians 8:6

yet to us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we unto him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, are all things, and we through him.
I think we should ask questions,
And there may be someone annoited, learned and regenerated that can give an answer.

That scripture might make anyone think how this might reflect on other scriptures.

Anti-trinitarians like this verse but fail to understand the simple logic of it. First, if “one God, the Father” excludes the Son from being God, then it follows that “one Lord, Jesus Christ” necessarily excludes the Father from being Lord. But that would contradict a number of verses.

Second, if “of whom are all things” speaks of the eternal, absolute nature of the Father (that nature which belongs to God alone), then it follows that “through whom are all things” necessarily speaks of the eternal, absolute nature of the Son.

This verse proves the deity of Jesus, or better, the Son.

 

[Free]

If your first post come off bad then you are not one I want to deal with. I can't feel the love..... and I like my peace...

So, you can “come off bad” but no one else can, even when they didn’t?

 

[Corinth77777]

So, you can “come off bad” but no one else can, even when they didn’t?

No further conversation- you win!

 

[Hidden In Him]

Directly, John is referring to either humans or doctrines, perhaps both. Indirectly, by extension, he is referring to the Spirit or spirits of teachers or prophets by which they proclaim their “truths.” That is to say, one can know whether a prophet is false or true by whether or not he believes Jesus came in the flesh, and that points to the spirit by which that prophet speaks.

Ok. We would have to disagree there. I think it's the opposite; demons or the Holy Spirit directly, and the prophets indirectly. I believe the text suggests they were testing the spirits prophesying through the prophets. If the spirit prophesying through the prophet did not profess that Christ had come in the flesh, then it was a demonic spirit rather than the Holy Spirit.

Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world. By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you heard was coming and now is in the world already.

When they are addressing or testing a spirit, he meant just that. They are addressing/ testing a spirit, not a human. But as I said, I suppose we may have to disagree.

Blessings, and just curious what your take there was.
- H

 

[jasonc]

Ok. We would have to disagree there. I think it's the opposite; demons or the Holy Spirit directly, and the prophets indirectly. I believe the text suggests they were testing the spirits prophesying through the prophets. If the spirit prophesying through the prophet did not profess that Christ had come in the flesh, then it was a demonic spirit rather than the Holy Spirit.

Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, for many false prophets have gone out into the world. By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you heard was coming and now is in the world already.

When they are addressing or testing a spirit, he meant just that. They are addressing/ testing a spirit, not a human. But as I said, I suppose we may have to disagree.

Blessings, and just curious what your take there was.
- H

One pastor preached "you must repent etc., speaks in tongues, believe Act 2 is today."

Yet he believes that God is the Father, the Son and the Spirit are not three beings in unity aka the Trinity .

I left that church after a few times listening to them. Modalism is a heresy.

 

[Hopeful 2]

And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God:......John 4:3
1 John 4:15
Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.

What do they change them to ?

 

[Hidden In Him]

What do they change them to ?

Posts #5 and #6, Hopeful.

 

[Whatever]

Holies of Holies (Who was in the the Holies of Holies?) God the father of all spirits ...or the annoited Chirst the Messiah.

I believe that only the "Word" or second person of the trinity was the only one who appeared to people in the OT, except in certain passages when it clearly tells us it it an angel like Gabriel or Michael.
So it was the Son who was in the Tabernacle, it was the Son who walked in the Garden with Adam and Eve, it was the Son who Moses met on the mountain. It must have been the Son that Jacob wrestled within Genesis 32:24-25.

Christ the Messiah means the same thing. Christ is the Greek equivilant of Hebrew Messiah.
Jesus the Messiah didn't exist until the Word took on flesh and became a man.

Nobody can really explain the trinity. We are Earth bound humans living in a creation of physical laws of physics.

 

[Corinth77777]

Yes. Do you hear how you come across? "Read"

I asked you a question six hours ago and you've made several posts since, without responding to my question. So, it seems that you didn't want to answer it, but further clarification is need since you have taken very little into account to come to your understanding of what 1 John 4:3, 15 are saying.

Oh, the "read" was an accident I was writing earlier and didn't finish. And answered something else that got connected ...I did not see it in order to erace it in time. So no did not see how that came across...because didn't know It was there.

I had to go back.... and read and then it clicked what you were talking about.
Thought I should explain....Now the conversation is over....

So no my heart is not set on hurting people....and I don't want to go back and forth like we did in another thread.
Nor be misrepresented, nor misunderstood. So to keep peace It's best this way.

 

[Corinth77777]

What does this mean?

That last answer "read" was an accident.. sorry..just never finshed what ever I was going to say...and didnt erace...before I responded to another.