Bible Study Are "drunkards" going to Hell?

[GodsGrace]

I apologize in advance for speaking very directly, I just prefer to be honest and clear..no offense intended.

If you go back and read what I stated in the first couple of sentences I answered those questions. "Our sins are wiped clean through Christs sacrifice along with belief in Him, and it is expected that none of us will be perfect throughout life even after. What you spoke about is regarding those who believe but more importantly obey. The bible states that willfully sinful lifestyles will render you incapable of entering heaven (homosexuality, promiscuity, adulterous behavior, drunkards, etc)."

Right. I think the word here is WILLFULLY SINFUL LIFESTYLE.
Sometimes on these forums we discuss what willful sin is.
As I understand it...it's an ongoing sin which you have no intention of stopping.

Thats as clear as I can make it. To elaborate, of course we all have sin in our lives. We cuss the guy out that cuts us off in traffic, lie to a boss about being 15 mins late, get rude with a waitress over some minor miscommunication with a food order,etc ..and then ask forgiveness when it hits us like a brick that we were dead wrong. Thats every single one of us. So no,Im not under the misconception that stepping up and confessing Christ as Lord and Savior removes all inclination to sin. But I do know that good intentions and remorse are sometimes not enough.

OK. But I wasn't even speaking about the inclination to sin.
I believe that as Christians that inclination (which can be called the sin nature) is put under submission to the Holy Spirit once we decide to
obey God and His commandments.

I've seen some stop smoking overnight, for example.
And then you see some that would like to stop but have a difficult time.
I do believe they are both saved as far as I can tell from God's word.

What youre injecting here is far different from deliberately and repeatedly engaging in certain behavior. So to that end,yes it may very well mean that you will not be saved. Thats why we shouldnt mince words and be as truthful with each other as we can. When we see someone going through bad times, we all hate to see it. Its hard to see somebody hurt and not want to offer some level of comfort or encouragement, and in fact we should. But above all we need to be honest enough to say hey man that aint right, this isnt good. To do otherwise abandons them to their fate without addressing the reality.

Agreed.
Of course, this only works with those that are interested...some don't seem to care.
(those would be the ones I'd worry about).

And its hard to bring that to someone for obvious reasons. Nobody wants to be critiqued and the first thoughts/comments from them usually amount to pointing out the flaws in you along with with how can you say this because of blahblah. Its a miserable position either way.

In the end it all amounts to one bad scenario for all involved. Bring to mind the worst battlefield you can imagine. People dead on all sides with a small group of survivors making their way off the field. One blind,another missing an arm,another his leg. Burns, shrapnel, the works. The only way everyone makes it is if theyre all patching each other up, even carrying some across the line. Thats all of us. But its up to us to do what we need to do along the way, as unpleasant as it can be at times.

Wow..Graphic!
-But true.
And very biblical....
Matthew 18:15....
15“If your brother sins, go and show him his fault in private; if he listens to you, you have won your brother.
16“But if he does not listen to you, take one or two more with you, so that BY THE MOUTH OF TWO OR THREE WITNESSES EVERY FACT MAY BE CONFIRMED.
17“If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector.

 

[stovebolts]

I heard this in church this morning and just wanted to share.
Truth without love is just being mean.
Love without truth is meaningless.

Now my own thoughts.
I believe alcoholism is a disease that effects those who are predispose of it. I’m not an alcoholic nor do I seem to be predisposed to it. This being true about myself makes it difficult to relate to an alcoholics struggles. That being said, my Father was an alcoholic and two of my step brothers are severe alcoholics and my step son struggles deeply with alcohol.

So while I can’t relate to the struggles of alcoholism, I can attest to the hell that is created around the alcoholic. And it’s torn me apart inside a few times.

The question was asked...do drunkards go to hell. My reply is this. Drinkards are not only currently living in hell, but they are creating hell around them.

Jesus asks a man who is sick this question. “Do you want to be made well”. That question is asked to each and everyone of us. Do we really want to be made well? Or do we simply just enjoy the idea of being made well.

Scripture states that we can do all things through Christ who strengthens us. Do we really believe this? If yes, then we need to step out of the boat and believe Gods promises to us.

Grace isn’t a free pass to continue in sin. Instead, grace says that we understand the struggles but we’re in this together. Take my hand and I’ll carry you when you can’t carry yourself and together, we’ll make it through this.

You see, love always hopes...and often live is long suffering.

EvolvingChristian ,thank you for having the courage to open up and share your struggles with us. You are an encouragement to us and many of us are here for you.

 

[Christ_empowered]

im careful with viewing drug abuse, heavy drinking, as diseases. not because I'm into fire and brimstone (LOL), but...well, what has the medical establishment, the rehab industry, the psych industry really done to make -progress- , if this is a disease the requires treatment? more $$$ does not seem to help the suffering.

that leaves the option of a more nuanced take on it...get the physical problems dealt with, detox, nutrition, appropriate medical care...and then ongoing repentance of the sin at hand. -eek- I say this as someone who was so totally and completely -fried- from my own heavy pill popping (because it was 1968 in my little world, lol) that I was electroshocked and lobotomized....-read: on the discard pile- , hence my cautious approach to medicalizing heavy intake of drugs, drink.

so...from what little i know about treating heavy drinking...that would probably mean sedatives to facilitate detoxing, addressing nutritional deficiencies, tapering the sedatives (hopefully...I've seen doctors around here keep people on Valium, Librium for a -long- time...), and then....

???

i dunno, honestly. speaking of my own misadventures in this realm...it wasn't until -after- I was graced with genuine repentance that I actually began to first disapprove of drug use and abuse, then I came to...gasp...truly reject it, as an option for me, as a viable 'lifestyle option' for anyone, ideally.

a harm reduction approach might be to pursue (self) treatment that makes life bearable, but doesn't involve the drug(s) from the old lifestyle. for me, that's meant massive doses of vitamins, antioxidants (Orthomolecular). As much as I'd love to believe/think that I -really need- 12 grams +/- of vitamin C, for instance, truth is...

it helps me simmer down. cheap, readily available. helps allergies, seems to have other 'side benefits' (i have normal blood pressure now, for instance) vs 'adverse effects' / side effects from 'standard treatment' (read: even with a ton of antioxidants, vitamins on board, plus a moderate dosage of a newer antipsychotic, I still have an ongoing prescription for low-dose neurontin, a supposedly 'non addictive' sedative that...you guessed it...helps me simmer down...).

rambling...I just think...over-medicalizing drug, alcohol abuse opens the door to new problems. for instance: when I was in a private for profit hospital, i was just...defrauded, kicked to the curb. happens, sometimes. but, I did notice...with the 'good patients...'

well, a lot of what they did was switch from the 'bad drugs' to the 'good medicines,' and a lot of the patients were not too happy about it. 1 case...this older, cranky vet in there for ptsd or something. anyway, his shrink decided that he was 'addicted' to his Lortab, so they put him on Methadone. thing about that is...

methadone lasts a long, long time in the system, and they also apparently didn't calibrate his dosage, because he was complaining, chain smoking, then he'd fall into a quick sleep, lit cigarette in his hand...

and a woman having -obvious- marital strife was in there, they decided she was 'anxious,' so she was on some massive dose of Klonopin, for 'panic disorder.' thing about that is...

yeah, you know, its funny...how a nice, hard working lady might 'panic'...when her husband beats her. :-(

and then there was -me- , the dude who came in on too much adderall by prescription and a problem with downers...walked out with severe brain damage, dead eyes, tics, and a ma$$ive bill, covered by insurance and my long suffering parents. :-(

just...be careful, giving 'experts' power, especially the (rather authoritarian) medical establishment. if you need surgery, antibiotics, vaccines...doctors are -awesome- , i mean...life saving treatments, operations, good stuff. when one starts dealing with sins, moral failings, just...contending with life in a fallen, cruel, sin scarred world...

-eek- doctors can turn into -your worst nightmare-

((finished, now))

 

[daninthelionsden]

Nobody wants to be an alcoholic. I know because I am one and I regret it all the time but I am too weak to stop drinking. I frequently ask Jesus to forgive me and to heal me of this vice. I believe that Jesus will accept me and heal me, if not in this life then, in the next.

When I first went on disability and was still in denial, I started drinking (self medicating). The more I drank, the more problems in the home life. I decided to ascertain how much I was drinking so I measured how much and it turned out to be 4oz of tequila every day. I drank this at night after dinner. I took a small glass and made sure I did not surpass the 4oz mark each day. I then took a permanent marker and drew a line very very slightly under that 4oz mark. Each couple of days I lowered that mark just a hair each time. Within a month, I was drinking 3oz a day. After a while 2 then 1 oz a day. After 6 mos.......no more drinking. You don't become an alcoholic over night. Weaning myself off that was how I did it. I also prayed and asked for help. The Lord answered by making me allergic to liqour/beer. I get sick anymore even on one beer. I do not even want a drink anymore. The thought is repulsive.
I used this same tactic to quit smoking. I switched to brands slightly lower in tar/nicotine one carton at a time until I was smoking the weakest cigarettes I could find. Only then did I begin reducing the number of cigarettes per day. When I got down to just a few cigarettes a day, I asked the Lord for help. Shortly I caught the flu and the last thing I wanted was a cigarette. I took that opportunity to quit. I never looked back. Sometimes I still dream I smoke. I wake up mad. Then realize it was just a dream. I praise God that monkey is off my back. Weaning worked for me twice. Weaning off carbs/sugar was mostly cold turkey though. Not super successful at that but definitely headed in the right direction.

 

[stovebolts]

im careful with viewing drug abuse, heavy drinking, as diseases. not because I'm into fire and brimstone (LOL), but...well, what has the medical establishment, the rehab industry, the psych industry really done to make -progress- , if this is a disease the requires treatment? more $$$ does not seem to help the suffering.

that leaves the option of a more nuanced take on it...get the physical problems dealt with, detox, nutrition, appropriate medical care...and then ongoing repentance of the sin at hand. -eek- I say this as someone who was so totally and completely -fried- from my own heavy pill popping (because it was 1968 in my little world, lol) that I was electroshocked and lobotomized....-read: on the discard pile- , hence my cautious approach to medicalizing heavy intake of drugs, drink.

so...from what little i know about treating heavy drinking...that would probably mean sedatives to facilitate detoxing, addressing nutritional deficiencies, tapering the sedatives (hopefully...I've seen doctors around here keep people on Valium, Librium for a -long- time...), and then....

???

i dunno, honestly. speaking of my own misadventures in this realm...it wasn't until -after- I was graced with genuine repentance that I actually began to first disapprove of drug use and abuse, then I came to...gasp...truly reject it, as an option for me, as a viable 'lifestyle option' for anyone, ideally.

a harm reduction approach might be to pursue (self) treatment that makes life bearable, but doesn't involve the drug(s) from the old lifestyle. for me, that's meant massive doses of vitamins, antioxidants (Orthomolecular). As much as I'd love to believe/think that I -really need- 12 grams +/- of vitamin C, for instance, truth is...

it helps me simmer down. cheap, readily available. helps allergies, seems to have other 'side benefits' (i have normal blood pressure now, for instance) vs 'adverse effects' / side effects from 'standard treatment' (read: even with a ton of antioxidants, vitamins on board, plus a moderate dosage of a newer antipsychotic, I still have an ongoing prescription for low-dose neurontin, a supposedly 'non addictive' sedative that...you guessed it...helps me simmer down...).

rambling...I just think...over-medicalizing drug, alcohol abuse opens the door to new problems. for instance: when I was in a private for profit hospital, i was just...defrauded, kicked to the curb. happens, sometimes. but, I did notice...with the 'good patients...'

well, a lot of what they did was switch from the 'bad drugs' to the 'good medicines,' and a lot of the patients were not too happy about it. 1 case...this older, cranky vet in there for ptsd or something. anyway, his shrink decided that he was 'addicted' to his Lortab, so they put him on Methadone. thing about that is...

methadone lasts a long, long time in the system, and they also apparently didn't calibrate his dosage, because he was complaining, chain smoking, then he'd fall into a quick sleep, lit cigarette in his hand...

and a woman having -obvious- marital strife was in there, they decided she was 'anxious,' so she was on some massive dose of Klonopin, for 'panic disorder.' thing about that is...

yeah, you know, its funny...how a nice, hard working lady might 'panic'...when her husband beats her. :-(

and then there was -me- , the dude who came in on too much adderall by prescription and a problem with downers...walked out with severe brain damage, dead eyes, tics, and a ma$$ive bill, covered by insurance and my long suffering parents. :-(

just...be careful, giving 'experts' power, especially the (rather authoritarian) medical establishment. if you need surgery, antibiotics, vaccines...doctors are -awesome- , i mean...life saving treatments, operations, good stuff. when one starts dealing with sins, moral failings, just...contending with life in a fallen, cruel, sin scarred world...

-eek- doctors can turn into -your worst nightmare-

((finished, now))

Good words. And I would echo your sentiments.
When seeking professional help, make sure you see a good doctor who isn’t just going to get you off one substance and onto another...

 

[Christ_empowered]

Good words. And I would echo your sentiments.
When seeking professional help, make sure you see a good doctor who isn’t just going to get you off one substance and onto another...

the problem there is...diagnosing and treating conditions is what doctors do. My problem isn't so much with the (well-regarded) "treatment providers" I had the misfortune of dealing with, in years past...

-sigh- my larger issue, as a Christian, is using the medical model to handle sins, adversity, inappropriate behavior, etc...

I think the term Dr.Thomas Szasz uses is 'medicalization of deviance.' As in...to paraphrase (the brilliant...) Szasz...one goes to a bariatric doctor for weight loss. they'll staple your stomach. one goes to a psychiatrist for "mental illness." They'll do a lobotomy. neither is real, genuine 'medicine,' in the sense of treating diseases. They are not equivalent to going to a general practitioner with an infection (verified by a lab) and then walking out with a prescription for antibiotics, for instance.

the practical, rubber hits the road - level question of course is: well, do the 'helping professions' -help- ? that's what bothers me, honestly. some data from other developed, affluent nations with national health insurance data (helps, with research) tends to show that 'suicide prevention' programs, for instance, may not only be ineffective, but actually counterproductive...

the 'mental health' - emphasis drives up costs and seems to result in more disability, more suicide. :-(

i dunno. covid is a pandemic; its a bona fide 'health issue.' drug abuse, suicide...personal manifestations of social problems ("the personal is political"). which isn't to say that individuals who do drugs, individuals who consider suicide shouldn't be given some sort of 1 on 1 "help..."

it is, rather, to say that the current model is counterproductive, and something else should be developed.

 

[jasonc]

maybe not drunkards but drinkards .

seriously ,i,will pray for your struggle

 

[stovebolts]

I've taken all of the posts about the Kingdom of Heaven / GOD and moved them into their own separate thread.
Please continue discussing the Kingdom of God / Heaven here.
https://christianforums.net/Fellowship/index.php?threads/kingdom-of-god-heaven.85595/