Are there different degrees of punishment in hell?

[Lucian Hodoboc]

Believers and non-believers alike all have troubles in this life that are very similar. Likewise, believers and non-believers alike sometimes have pretty comfortable lives here on this planet. So, what sets God's discipline apart from just plain life's troubles?

My point exactly. Job and Ecclesiastes seem to ask similar questions about the randomness of the events in the lives of righteous and unrighteous people. God's response to Job was that we can't understand how He (God) is working and we shouldn't venture to question His ways.

 

[JLB]

I notice your transition from "they/them" being "false prophets/ false teachers" (which, BTW, is in the Text) to a "believer"(your word not Peter's even though Peter addresses the dispersion as "you" not "them) is based on the allure of these false prophets' teaching. Odd given you turn right around and say:

I'm not going to discuss anything but what the scriptures actually say, by quoting the scriptures themselves.

I have posted what 2 Peter 2:18-22 refers to, and who is being addressed.

I have changed nothing.

If you disagree, then post the part you disagree with, from the scripture itself, and state why.


Here it is again -

So we can all review the text and the language of the text, to discern who Peter is referring to, once and for all.


18 For when they [false teacher's] speak great swelling words of emptiness, they [false teacher's] allure through the lusts of the flesh, through lewdness, the ones who have actually escaped [believer's] from those who live in error. 19 While they [false teacher's] promise them [believer's] liberty, they themselves [false teacher's] are slaves of corruption; for by whom a person is overcome, by him also he is brought into bondage. 20 For if, after they [believer's] have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they [believer's] are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning. 21 For it would have been better for them [believer's] not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them.[believer's] 22 But it has happened to them [believer's] according to the true proverb: “A dog returns to his own vomit,” and, “a sow, having washed, to her wallowing in the mire.” 2 Peter 2:18-22


Here is my answer to your question -

So that you don't keep proclaim fake and false news about me, I want to make sure to draw your attention to my answer:

• They only way anyone can be saved is through the knowledge of Jesus Christ and the price He paid for their sins, so that they can be cleansed of their past sins, and reconciled to God.

3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 1 Timothy 2:4


They have to know about the Gospel, from a person who preaches the Gospel.

In order to believe in Jesus Christ, a person must have knowledge of who Jesus is, and what Jesus has done for them.

Example:

14 How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher? 15 And how shall they preach unless they are sent? As it is written:
“How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the gospel of peace,
Who bring glad tidings of good things!” 16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our report?” 17 So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. Romans 10:14-17

Receiving the good news, the information from God, the knowledge of Jesus Christ, is how people come to either obey the Gospel or not.


JLB

 

[JLB]

Again, the Text of 2 Peter 2 doesn't say anything about believers or "those who are saved". You have to change the "they/them" of the Text which even you admit is Peter referring to false prophets to 'saved' 'believers' (your words, not Peter's), mid-sentence as you demonstrated in order to come to that conclusion.

Everyone can see from this, who the false teachers are and who the believers are.


18 For when they [false teacher's] speak great swelling words of emptiness, they [false teacher's] allure through the lusts of the flesh, through lewdness, the ones who have actually escaped [believer's] from those who live in error. 19 While they [false teacher's] promise them [believer's] liberty, they themselves [false teacher's] are slaves of corruption; for by whom a person is overcome, by him also he is brought into bondage. 20 For if, after they [believer's] have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they [believer's] are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning. 21 For it would have been better for them [believer's] not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them.[believer's] 22 But it has happened to them [believer's] according to the true proverb: “A dog returns to his own vomit,” and, “a sow, having washed, to her wallowing in the mire.” 2 Peter 2:18-22


If you disagree, then quote the passage with my highlight that disagree with.


JLB

 

[JLB]

Do fase teachers preach the Gospel?
Do they need to repent and believe/obey the Gosoel?

False teachers, teach false doctrine.

• The text doesn't say false prophets were saved.
• The text says the false message comes from false prophets and false teachers to those who are saved, in an attempt to lead them back into bondage, and being overcome again by sin, by luring them through the lust of the flesh, and through lewdness.

That message is the core of the OSAS message, that teaches people they can live in sin, practicing the works of the flesh, and never repent or confess their sins and be forgiven, and even serve other gods, in which they depart from the faith, yet still somehow remain saved and remain saved... While they promise them liberty, they themselves are slaves of corruption;


JLB

 

[JLB]

Why this insistence on trying to find verses to refute what Jesus said in John 10:28? We all know the Bible is NOT internally contradicted or conflicted.

So I repeat; those given eternal life shall never perish.

There was nothing in the verses quoted in your post that teaches that one who has been given eternal life can perish. For any reason.

27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. John 10:27-28

you would have to quote the verse and the context so we can discuss what it says.

We can all read who will receive eternal life.

• those who have done good, to the resurrection of life

Quoting half of a verse without the context is not how doctrine is established.

28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. John 5:28-29


JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

Are you saying that believers are the only ones that will be disciplined by God for sins in this life and unbelievers will not?

I think my previous answer was clear. Why would God discipline unbelievers? For what purpose? I know of none. I don't know of any Scripture that speak of God disciplining unbelievers during their time on earth.

Again, I pointed out a specific example where one's behavior can lead to suffering. One may think of that as discipline or not.

Our life is full of trials, tribulation, torture, and even death; especially for a believer. What discipline would one receive from God that would be worse?

I'm a bit surprised at such a question. It seems to be based on the view that God doesn't discipline His own children.

I've already cited Heb 12:11. I think that says it all.

Believers and non-believers alike all have troubles in this life that are very similar. Likewise, believers and non-believers alike sometimes have pretty comfortable lives here on this planet. So, what sets God's discipline apart from just plain life's troubles?

The purpose of the suffering. A lot of suffering is self induced.

But Heb 12 tells us WHY God disciplines His children. Now, why would God discipline those not His children? I can't think of a reason.

During the Tribuation, God most certainly will express His wrath towards sin and sinners. But that's not the same as discipline.

 

[FreeGrace]

27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. 28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. John 10:27-28

you would have to quote the verse and the context so we can discuss what it says.

How about starting with v.28?

We can all read who will receive eternal life.

• those who have done good, to the resurrection of life

• What did Jesus say about those He gives eternal life?

Quoting half of a verse without the context is not how doctrine is established.

28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. John 5:28-29
JLB

How come you're not addressing the result of being given eternal life as stated by Jesus?

 

[JLB]

How about starting with v.28?

• What did Jesus say about those He gives eternal life?

How come you're not addressing the result of being given eternal life as stated by Jesus?

Please post the scripture with the context.

We all no why you won't, because verse 28 is only a part of what Jesus said, and is a continuation of verse 27, in which verse 28 begins with this key word- And

If you want to discuss what the scriptures say, then great, we can get the scriptures that pertain to this subject with the context.

Other than that, all you have is endless debating about the opinion of man.

In fact, you will need to start a thread about John 10, because this thread is about are there different degrees of punishment in hell.


JLB

 

[chessman]

this thread is about are there different degrees of punishment in hell.

Correct.

Yet you referenced a passage that says absolutely nothing about Hell or believers with the following claim based on it:

it will be worse for believers in hell, than for unbelievers.

By changing the same referenced group of people (they, tous) from what Peter says are false prophets/teachers to your idea of who he meant('believers') mid-sentence, even though it's the exact same word referencing the false teachers (even by your own admission).

For when they [false teacher's] speak great swelling words of emptiness, they [false teacher's] allure through the lusts of the flesh, through lewdness, the ones who have actually escaped [believer's] from those who live in error. 19 While they [false teacher's] promise them [believer's] liberty, they themselves [false teacher's] are slaves of corruption;

Last time I'll ask you this simple question about your claim:
Is it your position that people are saved by "escaping those who live in error"?

I thought it was your claim that belief in (obedience to, in fact) the Lord Jesus Christ is what's required for salvation. Yet somehow in this verse, escaping from "those who live in error" is good enough to save. Odd really.

But either way, Peter never says the "they" in verse 18 and 19 "believed" or were "saved".

No person has ever been nor will ever be saved by "escaping from those (false teachers) who live in error". Nor did Peter ever say the "they" in v18/19 were saved through their escape to Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, or Bithynia.

 

[JLB]

Correct.

Yet you referenced a passage that says absolutely nothing about Hell or believers with the following claim based on it:

If you have questions about this topic, and to discuss what the scriptures say, then do so in the other thread.

Correct.

Yet you referenced a passage that says absolutely nothing about Hell or believers with the following claim based on it:

By changing the same referenced group of people (they, tous) from what Peter says are false prophets/teachers to your idea of who he meant('believers') mid-sentence, even though it's the exact same word referencing the false teachers (even by your own admission).

Last time I'll ask you this simple question about your claim:
Is it your position that people are saved by "escaping those who live in error"?

I thought it was your claim that belief in (obedience to, in fact) the Lord Jesus Christ is what's required for salvation. Yet somehow in this verse, escaping from "those who live in error" is good enough to save. Odd really.

But either way, Peter never says the "they" in verse 18 and 19 "believed" or were "saved".

No person has ever been nor will ever be saved by "escaping from those (false teachers) who live in error". Nor did Peter ever say the "they" in v18/19 were saved through their escape to Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, or Bithynia.

please move any questions about this subject to the other thread.

essential vs non essential


JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

Please post the scripture with the context.

Ok, here's the verse:
John 10:28 - I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.

And here's the context:
John 10 -
1 “Very truly I tell you Pharisees, anyone who does not enter the sheep pen by the gate, but climbs in by some other way, is a thief and a robber.
2 The one who enters by the gate is the shepherd of the sheep.
3 The gatekeeper opens the gate for him, and the sheep listen to his voice. He calls his own sheep by name and leads them out.
4 When he has brought out all his own, he goes on ahead of them, and his sheep follow him because they know his voice.
5But they will never follow a stranger; in fact, they will run away from him because they do not recognize a stranger’s voice.”
6 Jesus used this figure of speech, but the Pharisees did not understand what he was telling them.
7Therefore Jesus said again, “Very truly I tell you, I am the gate for the sheep.
8 All who have come before me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep have not listened to them.
9 I am the gate; whoever enters through me will be saved.They will come in and go out, and find pasture.
10The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I have come that they may have life, and have it to the full.
11 “I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep.
12 The hired hand is not the shepherd and does not own the sheep. So when he sees the wolf coming, he abandons the sheep and runs away. Then the wolf attacks the flock and scatters it.
13 The man runs away because he is a hired hand and cares nothing for the sheep.
14 “I am the good shepherd; I know my sheep and my sheep know me—
15 just as the Father knows me and I know the Father—and I lay down my life for the sheep.
16 I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd.
17 The reason my Father loves me is that I lay down my life—only to take it up again.
18 No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again. This command I received from my Father.”
19 The Jews who heard these words were again divided.
20 Many of them said, “He is demon-possessed and raving mad. Why listen to him?”
21 But others said, “These are not the sayings of a man possessed by a demon. Can a demon open the eyes of the blind?”
Further Conflict Over Jesus’ Claims
22 Then came the Festival of Dedication at Jerusalem. It was winter,
23 and Jesus was in the temple courts walking in Solomon’s Colonnade.
24 The Jews who were there gathered around him, saying, “How long will you keep us in suspense? If you are the Messiah, tell us plainly.”
25Jesus answered, “I did tell you, but you do not believe. The works I do in my Father’s name testify about me,
26 but you do not believe because you are not my sheep.
27 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me.
28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.
29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand.
30 I and the Father are one.”
31 Again his Jewish opponents picked up stones to stone him,
32 but Jesus said to them, “I have shown you many good works from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?”
33 “We are not stoning you for any good work,” they replied, “but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.”
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I have said you are “gods” ’?
35 If he called them ‘gods,’ to whom the word of God came—and Scripture cannot be set aside—
36 what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, ‘I am God’s Son’?
37 Do not believe me unless I do the works of my Father.
38 But if I do them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father.”
39 Again they tried to seize him, but he escaped their grasp.
40 Then Jesus went back across the Jordan to the place where John had been baptizing in the early days. There he stayed,
41 and many people came to him. They said, “Though John never performed a sign, all that John said about this man was true.”
42 And in that place many believed in Jesus.

So, what does Jesus mean when He said those He gives eternal life shall never perish?

We all no why you won't

Just did.

because verse 28 is only a part of what Jesus said, and is a continuation of verse 27, in which verse 28 begins with this key word- And

If you want to discuss what the scriptures say, then great, we can get the scriptures that pertain to this subject with the context.

I just gave ALL the context one could want.

So, what did Jesus mean when He said those He gives eternal life shall never perish?

Other than that, all you have is endless debating about the opinion of man.

So, what is your opinion of what Jesus meant when He said those He gives eternal life shall never perish?

In fact, you will need to start a thread about John 10, because this thread is about are there different degrees of punishment in hell.
JLB

Just give your opinion about what Jesus meant by saying those He gives eternal life shall never perish.

That will suffice. We don't need another thread. Just focus on what Jesus meant in John 10:28.

 

[JLB]

Ok, here's the verse:
John 10:28 - I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.

And here's the context:
John 10 -
1 “Very truly I tell you Pharisees, anyone who does not enter the sheep pen by the gate, but climbs in by some other way, is a thief and a robber.
2 The one who enters by the gate is the shepherd of the sheep.
3 The gatekeeper opens the gate for him, and the sheep listen to his voice. He calls his own sheep by name and leads them out.
4 When he has brought out all his own, he goes on ahead of them, and his sheep follow him because they know his voice.
5But they will never follow a stranger; in fact, they will run away from him because they do not recognize a stranger’s voice.”
6 Jesus used this figure of speech, but the Pharisees did not understand what he was telling them.
7Therefore Jesus said again, “Very truly I tell you, I am the gate for the sheep.
8 All who have come before me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep have not listened to them.
9 I am the gate; whoever enters through me will be saved.They will come in and go out, and find pasture.
10The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy; I have come that they may have life, and have it to the full.
11 “I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep.
12 The hired hand is not the shepherd and does not own the sheep. So when he sees the wolf coming, he abandons the sheep and runs away. Then the wolf attacks the flock and scatters it.
13 The man runs away because he is a hired hand and cares nothing for the sheep.
14 “I am the good shepherd; I know my sheep and my sheep know me—
15 just as the Father knows me and I know the Father—and I lay down my life for the sheep.
16 I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd.
17 The reason my Father loves me is that I lay down my life—only to take it up again.
18 No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again. This command I received from my Father.”
19 The Jews who heard these words were again divided.
20 Many of them said, “He is demon-possessed and raving mad. Why listen to him?”
21 But others said, “These are not the sayings of a man possessed by a demon. Can a demon open the eyes of the blind?”
Further Conflict Over Jesus’ Claims
22 Then came the Festival of Dedication at Jerusalem. It was winter,
23 and Jesus was in the temple courts walking in Solomon’s Colonnade.
24 The Jews who were there gathered around him, saying, “How long will you keep us in suspense? If you are the Messiah, tell us plainly.”
25Jesus answered, “I did tell you, but you do not believe. The works I do in my Father’s name testify about me,
26 but you do not believe because you are not my sheep.
27 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me.
28 I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.
29 My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand.
30 I and the Father are one.”
31 Again his Jewish opponents picked up stones to stone him,
32 but Jesus said to them, “I have shown you many good works from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?”
33 “We are not stoning you for any good work,” they replied, “but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.”
34 Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your Law, ‘I have said you are “gods” ’?
35 If he called them ‘gods,’ to whom the word of God came—and Scripture cannot be set aside—
36 what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, ‘I am God’s Son’?
37 Do not believe me unless I do the works of my Father.
38 But if I do them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father.”
39 Again they tried to seize him, but he escaped their grasp.
40 Then Jesus went back across the Jordan to the place where John had been baptizing in the early days. There he stayed,
41 and many people came to him. They said, “Though John never performed a sign, all that John said about this man was true.”
42 And in that place many believed in Jesus.

So, what does Jesus mean when He said those He gives eternal life shall never perish?

1. Please move this post over to the essential and non essential thread, and there I will address this post.

JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

1. Please move this post over to the essential and non essential thread, and there I will address this post.

JLB

I did, but the subject doesn't fall under non-essentials. Eternal security is an essential doctrine. It's what Jesus promises to those who believe in Him.

 

[JLB]

I did, but the subject doesn't fall under non-essentials. Eternal security is an essential doctrine. It's what Jesus promises to those who believe in Him.

Ok. then stay in this thread, then.

 

[gr8grace3]

I did, but the subject doesn't fall under non-essentials. Eternal security is an essential doctrine. It's what Jesus promises to those who believe in Him.

It really is an essential doctrine. Because it is related to salvation.

If one adds their own righteousness plus Christ..........it is not a saving faith. Many believe that their works/deeds + Christ is a faith that saves.

If we don't trust in Christ alone and His work alone.........It is not a faith that saves. Many are saved and were deceived into losing salvation garbage. But many believe that their works/deeds plus Christ save them........and they are NOT saved.

We get accused ALL the time that eternal security is a "licence to sin." When in reality eternal security focuses in on religion and " being 'good' " is not a "licence to salvation."

We go nowhere and do not advance in Gods plan for us if we don't believe and LIVE in His promise of eternal security for us.

Preaching to the choir here I know. But my heart is for believers to advance and grow up in the Lord......and we don't if we are stuck on salvation our whole lives.

 

[billybalke]

It really is an essential doctrine. Because it is related to salvation.

If one adds their own righteousness plus Christ..........it is not a saving faith. Many believe that their works/deeds + Christ is a faith that saves.

If we don't trust in Christ alone and His work alone.........It is not a faith that saves. Many are saved and were deceived into losing salvation garbage. But many believe that their works/deeds plus Christ save them........and they are NOT saved.

We get accused ALL the time that eternal security is a "licence to sin." When in reality eternal security focuses in on religion and " being 'good' " is not a "licence to salvation."

We go nowhere and do not advance in Gods plan for us if we don't believe and LIVE in His promise of eternal security for us.

Preaching to the choir here I know. But my heart is for believers to advance and grow up in the Lord......and we don't if we are stuck on salvation our whole lives.

"Eternal security" is not an "essential doctrine", its not in this life span, II Pet.1:1-15.

 

[gr8grace3]

"Eternal security" is not an "essential doctrine", its not in this life span, II Pet.1:1-15.

Splain a bit?

 

[FreeGrace]

It really is an essential doctrine. Because it is related to salvation.

Exactly!

If one adds their own righteousness plus Christ..........it is not a saving faith. Many believe that their works/deeds + Christ is a faith that saves.

If we don't trust in Christ alone and His work alone.........It is not a faith that saves. Many are saved and were deceived into losing salvation garbage. But many believe that their works/deeds plus Christ save them........and they are NOT saved.

We get accused ALL the time that eternal security is a "licence to sin." When in reality eternal security focuses in on religion and " being 'good' " is not a "licence to salvation."

We go nowhere and do not advance in Gods plan for us if we don't believe and LIVE in His promise of eternal security for us.

Preaching to the choir here I know. But my heart is for believers to advance and grow up in the Lord......and we don't if we are stuck on salvation our whole lives.

The bottom line is that the claim salvation can be lost is directly contrary to what Jesus said about those He gives eternal life; they shall never perish.

It's just amazing how people try to skate around John 10:28.

So what it all really comes down to is this: they don't believe what He said in John 10:28.