Are we allowed to debate the holocaust?

[Tri Unity]

As far as I have been able to determine; Revisionist History - which is legitimate - does not doubt that there was a holocaust - they just doubt the extent of the holocaust. Fred Leuchter's examination of the evidence of the extermination camps provided the greatest court evidence from America's most expert forensic examiner. He did not deny the holocaust - he challenged the number of 6 million.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fred_A._Leuchter

There is exceptionally big money in the holocaust number of 6 million. The Germans are still paying compensation to the victims, and this money has payed for the infrastructure of the modern State of Israel. In the end, it doesn't matter to christian's (IMO), as these events are part of God's ordained picture of the end-time prophecies. We should not become agitators of history; but we should examine the facts all the same.

 

[Hammer]

It's pretty sick, and now it's on Christian Forums dot net.

It would be pretty sick of the Holocaust didn't happen?

 

[Tri Unity]

It would be pretty sick of the Holocaust didn't happen?

I think it's more of an insurance scam then anything. Did a holocaust take place? Absolutely. Did 6 million or 600,000 die? That is debated.
The compensation difference between the two figures is immense though.

It is a little bit like a bank being wire-robbed and the directors claiming that 500 million was stolen. The real amount is actually 500 thousand, but the lawyers and directors say that they can sell the idea to the investigators that the amount is actually 500 million, not 500 thousand. Obviously they would prefer to pocket insurance for 500 million. These guys are not angels. Once they have gotten away with it they can claim to be persecuted if anyone ever questions their integrity. For me, it is futile. If they committed fraud, and they probably did, the thief is long gone by now. It is no point sqabbling over a fraud you can do nothing about. This is not the first time something like this has happened and it wont be the last. This is the world of sin we live in... what else would we expect?

 

[Hammer]

I think Christian sites and groups should be seen as the natural friends of Jews, not as places where Holocaust-deniers hang out.

Do you know many Jews who share you feelings that Christians and Jews should be natural friends?

How come when someone comes to a Christian forum and disputes the existence or deity of Jesus, you don't complain that Christian sites shouldn't be viewed as places where Jesus-deniers hang out?

 

[Strangelove]

What's your point here, Strangelove?

If your purpose here is to promote conspiracy theories, then I assure you your time here will be short indeed.

As it has been proven in court cases, denying the holocaust is falsifying the historical record, and a manipulation of history. It will not be tolerated.

-----

About your post that places like Dachau were not extermination camps, I wonder, have you been there? I have been to Dachau and have seen the gassing rooms myself. I've seen photos of the camp and historical records. I believe it extremely unlikely that place like this were fabricated to appear differently than what they were.

You claim not to be promoting conspiracy theories, but you are selectively giving evidence that points that way. Interesting.

"there were no extermination camps on German soil."

- "Nazi hunter" Simon Wiesenthal, Letters in Books & Bookmen (London), April 1975, p. 5, and in The Stars and Stripes (European edition), Jan. 24, 1993, p. 14. Wiesenthal's 1993 Stars and Stripes letter is reprinted in facsimile in The Journal of Historical Review, May-June 1993, p. 10.


"I was in Dachau for 17 months after the war, as a U.S. War Department Attorney, and can state that there was no gas chamber at Dachau. What was shown to visitors and sightseers there and erroneously described as a gas chamber was a crematory. Nor was there a gas chamber in any of the other concentration camps in Germany. We were told that there was a gas chamber at Auschwitz; but since that was in the Russian zone of occupation, we were not permitted to investigate since the Russians would not allow it. From what I was able to determine during six postwar years in Germany and Austria, there were a number of Jews killed, but the figure of a million was certainly never reached. I interviewed thousands of Jews, former inmates of concentration camps in Germany and Austria, and consider myself as well qualified as any man on this subject. "

- Stephen F Pinter, lawyer for the United States War Department in the occupation forces in Germany and Austria for six years after the war, statement in Catholic magazine 'Our Sunday Visitor', June 14, 1959.


The claims of Dachau, Buchenwald etc being extermination camps have been completely dropped by mainstream holocaust historians/scholars.

 

[Strangelove]

It took me just a few seconds to find the story at nytimes.com

Indeed in the big list of stories I posted earlier, the NYT links go directly to the New York Times own website for archived articles where the story is linked to in PDF.

It is highly unlikely that the NYT would make fake NYT articles available to the public on their very own website.

 

[Strangelove]

You will soon enough.

On another note:
One of my mom's brothers saw enough in Germany during the war to solidify my confidence in the holocaust. Neither he nor I could ever put a NUMBER on it, of course, but the lives lost were not imaginary.

This nonsense is nothing new, nor is it all that unique - there are those who are trying to tell us that the Apollo program never happened either.

It's pretty sick, and now it's on Christian Forums dot net.

Who said the lives lost were imaginary?

Dishonest Debating Tactics:

Straw Man
False Premise
Accusations of mental illness

 

[Pizzaguy]

Who said the lives lost were imaginary?

Dishonest Debating Tactics:

Straw Man
False Premise
Accusations of mental illness

You just lost all of my respect. You started a thread with the tone of denying the holocaust. It is too late to claim any high ground.
If you can't stick by your own posts, what good are your posts?

 

[Eugene]

It took me just a few seconds to find the story at nytimes.com

Is the New York Times part of Storm Front?

My apologies. White power must be right in their opinions of the holocaust huh? Am I wrong in believing there was a holocaust? Is there the possibility there were no concentration camps in Germany? Maybe all these things were just a Jewish conspiracy. Besides the NY Times there are other informational sources such as the link below. I am giving up on this thread.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocaust_denial

 

[Hammer]

Why does skepticism over the scope of the Holocaust bring such a visceral reaction in some people?

 

[Tri Unity]

Why does skepticism over the scope of the Holocaust bring such a visceral reaction in some people?

I find this to be an anomaly also. The communists killed over 20 million after WW1 - 3 times the amount of the holocaust. When do we ever hear a cry of pain for those victims. The Chinese killed 50 million during the Mao campaign; again, nearly 10 times the holocaust. When do we hear about the hurt and pain for these people. Israel has gained popular support simply because they milked the media. Those who develop their opinions from the media are most susceptible to this consumer brainwashing. It is a terrible indictment against christians (IMO) that so many form opinions based on marketing dollars and propaganda. That too is prophesied as part of the end-time deception.

All deaths, genocides and slaughters are to be lamented. This particular holocaust should not receive the partial consternation it receives as though it was the only bad thing to have ever occurred. Why did God allow this to happen since Hitler was ordained by God? (Romans 13:1) Why did God allow the Romans to kill so many Christians during the age of martyrdoms? I think the spiritual questions about the holocaust are strangely overlooked.

 

[farouk]

The annihilation of millions of Jews in World War Two should never be trivialized and I think this thread has outlived any usefulness it supposedly had.

 

[Pizzaguy]

The only use for this thread is to make us all look like Westboro Baptist - that is to say, like KOOKS.

People are quick to label and judge Christians - they have more ammo now. 2

 

[Hammer]

There's an old question: What happens if war is declared but no one shows up?

This thread demonstrates what happens when there's a debate and one side doesn't show up to debate it, but only to protest it. If I were scoring the debate, I'd have to give the victory to Strangelove by default.

By the way, high schools are always looking for volunteers to judge debates. I've never seen a side to lose by refusing to debate, but I've never seen the Holocaust as a topic.

 

[reba]

For those who are whinning about the opposition to this thread..... The difference i see between the holocausts of Mao, the killing feilds, Stalin etc. No one is trying to deminish those atrocities.

What the Nazis did to a fast portion of the population is dispictable. The efforts to lession their guilt shows the lack of responsibility man has to another.

 

[Milk-Drops]

Am I the only one aware of who Dr. Strange love actually is? This guy here ( according to his posting history) seems to drop off for long periods.

He's playing the movie character to a T. With the Geo centrism, Holocaust Denial, etc.

I suggest that anyone here who has a netflix account watch the Move "Dr. Strangelove". you'll understand this troll way better if you do.

 

[Hammer]

For those who are whinning about the opposition to this thread..... The difference i see between the holocausts of Mao, the killing feilds, Stalin etc. No one is trying to deminish those atrocities.

I don't think anyone cares about how many people Mao and Stalin killed. But, if someone wanted to debate it, I imagine there would be a debate rather than one side protesting against anyone for being skeptical over official numbers.

 

[Milk-Drops]

I don't think anyone cares about how many people Mao and Stalin killed. But, if someone wanted to debate it, I imagine there would be a debate rather than one side protesting against anyone for being skeptical over official numbers.

Unless of course, the person presenting the debate is a troll playing the roll of a movie character who is an ex - Nazi that denies the Holocaust. It makes sense to shut down a debate then. ;)

 

[mcgyver]

The claims of Dachau, Buchenwald etc being extermination camps have been completely dropped by mainstream holocaust historians/scholars.

Oh really?

Please cite your sources for this rather broad stroke of the brush...I would like to see who these "mainstream" historians and scholars are, as well as their credentials.

I personally know of no legitimate historian who would dare risk his/her reputation on such an assertion in the face of overwhelming historical evidence.

 

[Pizzaguy]

Am I the only one aware of who Dr. Strange love actually is? This guy here ( according to his posting history) seems to drop off for long periods.

He's playing the movie character to a T. With the Geo centrism, Holocaust Denial, etc.

I suggest that anyone here who has a netflix account watch the Move "Dr. Strangelove". you'll understand this troll way better if you do.

So we are being "played" by someone who is just having fun with us? And the price we pay is that people will come here and see nonsense conspiracy crap on this forum? I guess if the admins are fine with it, let it continue.

Standby by for my new thread on Christian Social Nudity...