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Are we allowed to debate the holocaust?

handy said:
In other words, if the sticking point here is the number "6,000,000" and we wind up proving beyond any shadow of doubt that even in Nazi Germany there was "only" say.... 567,293 Jews killed by the Nazis
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Handy, did you know that even the most respected holocaust historians agree that there were absolutely no extermination camps in nazi Germany?

E.g. the camps of Dachau, Buchenwald, Bergen-Belsen etc
 
handy said:
So, you are doubting that pogroms took place, that the Nazi's killed vast amounts of Jews?
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That would be an opinion/theory based on facts.

I'm more interested in posting facts, and seeing what you guys think of them.

If you really want my opinion, I will give it...if the moderators allow it. At the beginning of the thread there was initial opposition to any putting forth of theories.
 
Look how many times the six million figure is mentioned in the New York Times:

1869 New York Times: 6,000,000 Jews in the world, half in Europe NYT

1889 New York Times: 6,000,000 Jews in the world, 2/3rds in Russia NYT

1891 New York Times: 6,000,000 Jews in Russia NYT

1896 New York Times: 6,000,000 Jews in Russia NYT

1900 New York Times: 6,000,000 living arguments in favour of Zionism NYT

1902 New York Times: 6,000,000 Jews in Russia NYT

1904 New York Times: 6,000,000 Jews in Russia, Zionism & East Africa NYT

1905 New York Times: 6,000,000 Russian Jews and Zionism NYT

1905 New York Times: 6,000,000 Jews expelled from Russia between 1890-1902 NYT

1906 New York Times: 6,000,000 Jews will be massacred in Russia NYT

1907 New York Times: 6,000,000 Jews can't emigrate NYT

1910 New York Times: 6,000,000 Jews in Russia NYT

1910 New York Times: 6,000,000 Jews in Russia in a sad plight NYT

1911 New York Times: 6,000,000 Jews in Russia are persecuted NYT

1911 New York Times: 6,000,000 Jews in Russia have no rights at all NYT

1911 New York Times: 6,000,000 Jews in Russia to be massacred NYT

1911 New York Times: 6,000,000 Jews in Russia in real peril NYT

1914 New York Times: 6,000,000 Jews within warzone NYT

1915 New York Times: 6,000,000 Jews within warzone NYT

1916 New York Times: 6,000,000 Jews in Poland ruined NYT

1918 New York Times: 6,000,000 Jews need help NYT

1919 New York Times: 6,000,000 Jews in peril in Ukraine & Poland NYT

1919 New York Times: 6,000,000 Jews left in Europe NYT

1919 The American Hebrew: 6,000,000 Jews will died in a holocaust

1920 New York Times: 6,000,000 Jews menaced by typhus NYT

1920 New York Times: 6,000,000 Jews sufferers of war NYT

1920 New York Times: 6,000,000 Jews facing starvation NYT

1920 New York Times: 6,000,000 Jews threatened by famine & disease NYT

1920 The Toronto World: 6,000,000 Jews facing death

1921 New York Times: 6,000,000 Jews facing extermination in Russia NYT

1933 New York Times: 6,000,000 Jews involved in relief work NYT

1935 New York Times: 6,000,000 Jews defended by Congress NYT

1936 New York Times: 6,000,000 Jews represented at Jewish Congress NYT

1938 New York Times: 6,000,000 Jews dying in Europe NYT

1938 New York Times: 6,000,000 Jews victims in Europe NYT

1938 New York Times: 6,000,000 Jews victims in Eastern & Central Europe NYT

1939 New York Times: 6,000,000 Jews can’t be evacuated NYT

1945 New York Times: 6,000,000 Jews killed (4mnths before end of WW2) NYT

1945 New York Times: 6,000,000 Jews were under Nazi rule, only 1,200,000 survived NYT

1945 New York Times: 6,000,000 Jews, only 1,000,000 still alive (3 months before VE Day) NYT
 
I'm more interested in posting facts, and seeing what you guys think of them.
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The question is... how reliable are the "facts" in this case?

I realize that each of these article look like they are bona-fide historical NY Times articles.

However, we live in the age of the Internet... where the first rule of thumb is that not everything is as it seems.

If I lived in NY.. it would be interesting to go to the source and compare the originals with the web-site. Looking at the originals would be the only way to know for sure if the articles are valid.

Then if the articles don't match up... we just have another anti-Semitic attempt to revise history to cast doubts upon the Jews...

If the originals do match up... then it would be interesting to delve into this 80 year "coincidence" of 6,000,000.


Which, I grant you, would seem highly suspicious.

If it seems that I'm pretty cynical and skeptical of anything found on the web... I am. ;)
 
Strangelove said:
Ok great. Just the facts. Here we go.

NY Times reports in 1906 that Russia's "6,000,00 jews" facing a final "solution" of "systematic and murderous extermination"

STARTLING reports of the condition and future of Russia's 6,000,000 Jews were made on March 12 in Berlin to the annual meeting of the Central Jewish Relief League of Germany by Dr. Paul Nathan, a well-known Berlin publicist....

Dr. Nathan paints a horrifying picture of the plight and prospects of his coreligionists, and forecasts at any hour renewed massacres exceeding in extent and terror all that have gone before. He left St. Petersburg with the firm conviction that the Russian Government's studied policy for the "solution" of the Jewish question is systematic and murderous extermination.


LINK: Original Paper
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Oh this must certainly be great unbiased news brought forth by "White Pride - World Wide." Hmmmm?

http://www.stormfront.org/forum/t739060/
 
Eugene said:
Oh this must certainly be great unbiased news brought forth by "White Pride - World Wide." Hmmmm?http://www.stormfront.org/forum/t739060/
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If a news report is published on the stormfront website, does that discredit the news report? Does it mean it's not genuine?

The following is a list of dishonest debate tactics:

Dishonest debate tactics:

Mocking/ridicule/Theatrical fake laughter or sighs
Evading any talk of facts, evidence, logic.
Name calling.
Accusations of mental illness.
False premise (saying that some book or document proves something that it doesn't, they never quote the source they recommend) "go read a book" etc
Questioning the motives of the opponent
Playing on widely held fantasies
Stereotyping
Rejecting facts or logic as opinion
Argument from intimidation
Associating the opponent with "hate groups"
Innuendo/Insinuation
Peer approval of subjective opinion
Political correctness
 
Strangelove said:
That would be an opinion/theory based on facts.

I'm more interested in posting facts, and seeing what you guys think of them.

If you really want my opinion, I will give it...if the moderators allow it. At the beginning of the thread there was initial opposition to any putting forth of theories.
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See for example wikipedia 'The Holocaust', section 'Victims and death toll', which in turn gives other sources.

This is far too important to be vague about.
 
In the article I mentioned, various independent estimates give around the 6 million figure for Jews exterminated by Nazis.

It is totally unacceptable to entertain any notion that such a mass extermination of Jews supposedly did not happen.

If we use the term 'Nazi-occupied Europe' or 'victims of Nazi Germany', rather than restricting figures to the technical borders of Germany itself, then killings on such a vast scale should not be doubted.
 
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one would think that the jews in new york would know of that. well that too is where and about when my family was in nyc. we came from russia to montreal then to nyc then savannah. and from savannah all parts of the world. yet nothing mentioned to me by my granddad who was in nyc during the depression and his dad also there during the early 1900s. odd. odessa is the home of origion for my surname though not the home country.(ukrainian jews)we left about that time.
 
It makes me wonder why the thread was started and what direction it is supposed to be leading to. I don't get it.
 
farouk said:
It makes me wonder why the thread was started and what direction it is supposed to be leading to. I don't get it.
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simple. given sl. to show that all jews and namely isreal is the bane of society., that some secret jewish bankers is plotting to destroy the world and the jews are the ac or the devils. sure they are bad jews. karl marx was one. but do we need to push gossip as gospel truth?in my search which that link as eguene pointed out used wikipedia with sources. wikipedia also has a lenghty page with links on holocaust deniers. one trial for the truth in canada as recent as 2006. the deaths of jews and others by hitler remain to be fact.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holocaust_denial
 
farouk said:
It makes me wonder why the thread was started and what direction it is supposed to be leading to. I don't get it.
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You will soon enough.

On another note:
One of my mom's brothers saw enough in Germany during the war to solidify my confidence in the holocaust. Neither he nor I could ever put a NUMBER on it, of course, but the lives lost were not imaginary.

This nonsense is nothing new, nor is it all that unique - there are those who are trying to tell us that the Apollo program never happened either.

It's pretty sick, and now it's on Christian Forums dot net.
 
I think Christian sites and groups should be seen as the natural friends of Jews, not as places where Holocaust-deniers hang out.
 
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What's your point here, Strangelove?

If your purpose here is to promote conspiracy theories, then I assure you your time here will be short indeed.

As it has been proven in court cases, denying the holocaust is falsifying the historical record, and a manipulation of history. It will not be tolerated.

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About your post that places like Dachau were not extermination camps, I wonder, have you been there? I have been to Dachau and have seen the gassing rooms myself. I've seen photos of the camp and historical records. I believe it extremely unlikely that place like this were fabricated to appear differently than what they were.

You claim not to be promoting conspiracy theories, but you are selectively giving evidence that points that way. Interesting.
 
Strangelove said:
Handy, did you know that even the most respected holocaust historians agree that there were absolutely no extermination camps in nazi Germany?

E.g. the camps of Dachau, Buchenwald, Bergen-Belsen etc
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Wow... I missed this in this discussion... I'm dropping out of this discussion...right now.
 
Nick said:
About your post that places like Dachau were not extermination camps, I wonder, have you been there? I have been to Dachau and have seen the gassing rooms myself. I've seen photos of the camp and historical records. I believe it extremely unlikely that place like this were fabricated to appear differently than what they were.
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Just what I was getting at here:
Pizzaguy said:
One of my mom's brothers saw enough in Germany during the war to solidify my confidence in the holocaust. Neither he nor I could ever put a NUMBER on it, of course, but the lives lost were not imaginary.

This nonsense is nothing new, nor is it all that unique - there are those who are trying to tell us that the Apollo program never happened either.

It's pretty sick, and now it's on Christian Forums dot net.
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I see no need for this thread.. except to divide people cause hurt and push anger while some one sits back in laughter.
 
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