are we in the middle of the 6th seal?

[Mysteryman]

Mysteryman, are you going to reply to my post? If not, i understand.

HI

I did, you just didn't recognize that I have already given you the answer.

The white horse "represents" the righteousness of God, when he cleansed the earth of all its unrighteousness.

If you are looking for a white horse in the book of Genesis, you will not find one.

 

[Mysteryman]

Hi coop

May I ask what you are trying to prove here ?

Why not just present what you believe the first seal means ?

What good would that do? That is what everyone does. Does it really help when 20 people give THEIR opinion - each as if it was the ONLY correct theory?

What we all want, I would hope, is WHAT THE HOLY SPIRIT'S INTENT WAS when He had John write.

Can you agree, at least with this?

Coop

Hi Coop

So what you are saying, is that you do not want to be number 21 who gives their opinion ?

Have you even considered that the seven seals are seven mysteries (secrets) ? Thus, they would be seven revealings when the seals are opened !

Some are past tense , and others are future tense.

We are in the middle of the fifth seal right now.

 

[lecoop]

Hi coop

May I ask what you are trying to prove here ?

Why not just present what you believe the first seal means ?

What good would that do? That is what everyone does. Does it really help when 20 people give THEIR opinion - each as if it was the ONLY correct theory?

What we all want, I would hope, is WHAT THE HOLY SPIRIT'S INTENT WAS when He had John write.

Can you agree, at least with this?

Coop

Hi Coop

So what you are saying, is that you do not want to be number 21 who gives their opinion ?

Have you even considered that the seven seals are seven mysteries (secrets) ? Thus, they would be seven revealings when the seals are opened !

Some are past tense , and others are future tense.

We are in the middle of the fifth seal right now.

So you are going to ignore the questions too?
Or, maybe you just don't know the correct answers?

The seals are seals, sealing up a document. All we need to do is READ to acertain this. It seems the that with each seal, only a small portion of the document (scroll) can be read. Yes, certainly the contents of the scroll, even what was to read with each broken seal, was a mystery to John BEFORE it was read. But AFTER it was read, the mystery was no longer a mystery.

I would perfer to say we are waiting on the 6th seal. The 5th seal was broken about 33 AD along with the first 4.

Coop

 

[Mysteryman]

Quote Coop: "I would perfer to say we are waiting on the 6th seal. The 5th seal was broken about 33 AD along with the first 4."

Hi Coop

It does not matter what you say. It only matters what the Word of God will allow us to say. If you are going to make a suggestive thought, then back it up with scripture. Otherwise, it then is only your opinion.

For instance, the third seal represents the Law of Moses. This is why the use of "balances".

 

[lecoop]

Quote Coop: "I would perfer to say we are waiting on the 6th seal. The 5th seal was broken about 33 AD along with the first 4."

Hi Coop

It does not matter what you say. It only matters what the Word of God will allow us to say. If you are going to make a suggestive thought, then back it up with scripture. Otherwise, it then is only your opinion.

For instance, the third seal represents the Law of Moses. This is why the use of "balances".

You are TOTALLY wrong. Completely clueless. You seem to have NO IDEA what John is telling us here.
These are BAD things, brought on by the DEVIL. Riders 2, 3, and 4 ride together - in a feeble attempt to STOP THE CHURCH.

Coop

 

[Mysteryman]

Quote Coop: "I would perfer to say we are waiting on the 6th seal. The 5th seal was broken about 33 AD along with the first 4."

Hi Coop

It does not matter what you say. It only matters what the Word of God will allow us to say. If you are going to make a suggestive thought, then back it up with scripture. Otherwise, it then is only your opinion.

For instance, the third seal represents the Law of Moses. This is why the use of "balances".

You are TOTALLY wrong. Completely clueless. You seem to have NO IDEA what John is telling us here.
These are BAD things, brought on by the DEVIL. Riders 2, 3, and 4 ride together - in a feeble attempt to STOP THE CHURCH.

Coop

Hi Coop

Well, telling me I am wrong does not mean that I am wrong. And again, I see no scripture to back up your personnal view on this. Pure speculation on your part. Which is not the way to rightly divided the Word of truth.

Have a nice day .

 

[lecoop]

Quote Coop: "I would perfer to say we are waiting on the 6th seal. The 5th seal was broken about 33 AD along with the first 4."

Hi Coop

It does not matter what you say. It only matters what the Word of God will allow us to say. If you are going to make a suggestive thought, then back it up with scripture. Otherwise, it then is only your opinion.

For instance, the third seal represents the Law of Moses. This is why the use of "balances".

You are TOTALLY wrong. Completely clueless. You seem to have NO IDEA what John is telling us here.
These are BAD things, brought on by the DEVIL. Riders 2, 3, and 4 ride together - in a feeble attempt to STOP THE CHURCH.

Coop

Hi Coop

Well, telling me I am wrong does not mean that I am wrong. And again, I see no scripture to back up your personnal view on this. Pure speculation on your part. Which is not the way to rightly divided the Word of truth.

Have a nice day .

Speculation? Go ahead and ignore the context. Ignore the questions I presented.
Speculation is what you get when you ignore the context.

5And when he had opened the third seal, I heard the third beast say, Come and see. And I beheld, and lo a black horse; and he that sat on him had a pair of balances in his hand.

6And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and see thou hurt not the oil and the wine.

This is telling us of FAMINE and HUNGER. The balance is to MEASURE OUT an exact amount of grain. This is close to starvation: a penny, so some say, was a day's wages: here just enough to buy a little wheat, or a little more barley.

Please examine this verse carefully:

8And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.


8And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them (Them WHO?)

over the fourth part of the earth,

to kill with sword, (This is seal #2.)

and with hunger, (This is seal #3)

and with death, (This is seal #4)

and with the beasts of the earth.

This is not speculation: it is UNDERSTANDING the intent of the author.

Coop

 

[nadab]

nadab, i really have to disagree with what you say. the riders in Rev.6:2 and Rev.19:11 are not the same. what bible are you reading from?...

Why do you feel that they are different ? In the Bible, the horse often symbolizes warfare. (Psalm 20:7; Proverbs 21:31; Isaiah 31:1) This horse, likely a beautiful stallion, gleams with a whiteness that indicates unblemished holiness. (Compare Revelation 1:14; 4:4; 7:9; 20:11.) How appropriate this is, for it portrays warfare that is clean and righteous in God’s holy eyes!

Who is the Rider of this horse at Revelation 6:2 ? He has a bow, an offensive weapon of war, but he is also given a crown. The only righteous ones seen wearing crowns during the Lord’s day are Jesus and the class represented by the 24 elders. (Daniel 7:13, 14, 27; Luke 1:31-33; Revelation 4:4, 10; 14:14) A member of the group of 24 elders would not be pictured as receiving a crown on his own merit. Hence, this lone horseman must be Jesus Christ and no other.

Because of the inaccurate rendering of the Greek word pa·rou·si´as as "coming" throughout most of the Bibles instead of accurately rendering it as "presence", as at Matthew 24:3, 27, 37, and 39, many in the churches continue to look for Jesus "second coming" rather than realizing that he is already invisibly ' present ' in kingdom power and that Revelation 6:2-8 points directly to this.

At Matthew 24:3, four of Jesus' apostles did not ask "what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?", but instead " what [is] the sign of thy presence ("presence", Greek pa·rou·si´as, meaning literally to "being alongside") and of the full end of the age ("conclusion of the system of things")?"(Young's Bible)

As a point of interest, the Greek word er·kho´me·non is properly rendered as "coming", as at Matthew 24:30 in the King James Bible, and pa·rou·si´as is properly rendered as "presence" in the King James Bible only at Philippians 2:12, 1 Thessalonians 2:19 and 2 Corinthians 10:10, but nowhere else.

Vine’s Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words (1981, Vol. 1, pp. 208, 209) states: “PAROUSIA . . . denotes both an arrival and a consequent presence with. For instance, in a papyrus letter [written in Greek] a lady speaks of the necessity of her parousia in a place in order to attend to matters relating to her property there." Liddell and Scott’s Greek-English Lexicon (revised by H. Jones, Oxford, 1968, p. 1343) shows that pa·rou·si´a is used at times in secular Greek literature to refer to the “visit of a royal or official personage.â€

Most fail to grasp that Jesus is already ruling invisibly as king of God's kingdom. As a result, they cannot accept the thought that Jesus Christ is the rider of the "white horse" at Revelation 6:2. Being as almost everyone in the churches are looking for Jesus "second coming" or "advent" instead of understanding his invisible "presence", these disregard what Jesus said would be features of the "sign of (his) presence". If Jesus were to return to the earth visibly as a man, then for what reason would Jesus have given features that would identify the "sign of (his) presence" at Matthew 24:4-14 ?

At Revelation 19:11, Jesus Christ is again seen as riding on a "white horse", who "in righteousness he judges and wages war" (International Standard Version), leading his "armies" of loyal angels against the "nations" and their armies, whereby after the battle has ended in his favor, that the "birds that fly in midheaven" are invited to feast on "the flesh of kings, the flesh of (military) commanders, the flesh of warriors, the flesh of horses and their riders, and the flesh of all people, both free and slaves, both unimportant and important."(Rev 19:18, International Standard Version)

 

[lecoop]

nadab, i really have to disagree with what you say. the riders in Rev.6:2 and Rev.19:11 are not the same. what bible are you reading from?...

Why do you feel that they are different ? In the Bible, the horse often symbolizes warfare. (Psalm 20:7; Proverbs 21:31; Isaiah 31:1) This horse, likely a beautiful stallion, gleams with a whiteness that indicates unblemished holiness. (Compare Revelation 1:14; 4:4; 7:9; 20:11.) How appropriate this is, for it portrays warfare that is clean and righteous in God’s holy eyes!

Who is the Rider of this horse at Revelation 6:2 ? He has a bow, an offensive weapon of war, but he is also given a crown. The only righteous ones seen wearing crowns during the Lord’s day are Jesus and the class represented by the 24 elders. (Daniel 7:13, 14, 27; Luke 1:31-33; Revelation 4:4, 10; 14:14) A member of the group of 24 elders would not be pictured as receiving a crown on his own merit. Hence, this lone horseman must be Jesus Christ and no other.

Nadab, I really wanted to comment. Yes, I agree that the horse is to represent warfare, and the color white is to represent righteousness. But what is this horse AND rider a picture of? What is it to represent? If you understand the CONTEXT of the first seal, meaning the vison of the throne room, you see that the first seal was broken about 33 AD. What was righteous on earth after Jesus ascended to be at the Father's right hand? ONLY the church. This first seal is to represent the church, starting out on the great commission.

Because of the inaccurate rendering of the Greek word pa·rou·si´as as "coming" throughout most of the Bibles instead of accurately rendering it as "presence", as at Matthew 24:3, 27, 37, and 39, many in the churches continue to look for Jesus "second coming" rather than realizing that he is already invisibly ' present ' in kingdom power and that Revelation 6:2-8 points directly to this.

Yes, of course when His "presense" is here, HE will be here, and so it will be a COMING. What part of this does NOT sound like a "coming" to you?

1 Thes 4
16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Certainly it is His "presense" because HE WILL BE HERE.

Heb 9
28So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

When He appears to those that look for Him, again it will be because he COMES for us.

Most fail to grasp that Jesus is already ruling invisibly as king of God's kingdom. As a result, they cannot accept the thought that Jesus Christ is the rider of the "white horse" at Revelation 6:2. Being as almost everyone in the churches are looking for Jesus "second coming" or "advent" instead of understanding his invisible "presence", these disregard what Jesus said would be features of the "sign of (his) presence". If Jesus were to return to the earth visibly as a man, then for what reason would Jesus have given features that would identify the "sign of (his) presence" at Matthew 24:4-14 ?

The church IS indeed looking for His coming, because that is what HE told us to do. And it will be a REAL coming, because He descends from heaven, and we meet Him in the air. Sorry, but Jesus is NOT the rider on the white horse in chapter 6.

Matt 24
27For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

30And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Yes, I will agree that Jesus is ruling His spiritual kingdom now, but will soon COME to establish a physical kingdom. These two verses speak of a REAL and physcal coming. It would be very hard to have only a presense, when His physical foot will set down on a mountain.

At Revelation 19:11, Jesus Christ is again seen as riding on a "white horse", who "in righteousness he judges and wages war" (International Standard Version), leading his "armies" of loyal angels against the "nations" and their armies, whereby after the battle has ended in his favor, that the "birds that fly in midheaven" are invited to feast on "the flesh of kings, the flesh of (military) commanders, the flesh of warriors, the flesh of horses and their riders, and the flesh of all people, both free and slaves, both unimportant and important."(Rev 19:18, International Standard Version)

So you really DO believe in a physical coming?

Coop

 

[nadab]

nadab, i really have to disagree with what you say. the riders in Rev.6:2 and Rev.19:11 are not the same. what bible are you reading from?...

Why do you feel that they are different ? In the Bible, the horse often symbolizes warfare. (Psalm 20:7; Proverbs 21:31; Isaiah 31:1) This horse, likely a beautiful stallion, gleams with a whiteness that indicates unblemished holiness. (Compare Revelation 1:14; 4:4; 7:9; 20:11.) How appropriate this is, for it portrays warfare that is clean and righteous in God’s holy eyes!

Who is the Rider of this horse at Revelation 6:2 ? He has a bow, an offensive weapon of war, but he is also given a crown. The only righteous ones seen wearing crowns during the Lord’s day are Jesus and the class represented by the 24 elders. (Daniel 7:13, 14, 27; Luke 1:31-33; Revelation 4:4, 10; 14:14) A member of the group of 24 elders would not be pictured as receiving a crown on his own merit. Hence, this lone horseman must be Jesus Christ and no other.

Nadab, I really wanted to comment. Yes, I agree that the horse is to represent warfare, and the color white is to represent righteousness. But what is this horse AND rider a picture of? What is it to represent? If you understand the CONTEXT of the first seal, meaning the vison of the throne room, you see that the first seal was broken about 33 AD. What was righteous on earth after Jesus ascended to be at the Father's right hand? ONLY the church. This first seal is to represent the church, starting out on the great commission.

Coop

The first seal was not opened in 33 C.E., for at Revelation 1:10, John says that "I became in the Spirit (or by inspiration in) the Lord's day, and I heard behind me a great voice as of a trumpet."(Darby's Bible) The "Lord's day" was yet future from the time of John, who wrote down the book of Revelation in about 96 C.E.

The apostle Paul wrote that "of this I am fully persuaded, that He who has begun a good work in you will go on completing it until the day of Jesus Christ."(Phil 1:6, Montgomery New Testament) And Paul said that a true Christian should be "blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ."(1 Cor 1:8, King James Bible) Thus, the "day of Jesus Christ" is the same as the "Lord's day" in the book of Revelation, still yet future from the time of both Paul and John.

John, "by inspiration", was projected far into the future to see climatic events "in the Lord's day", events which start with the opening of the first seal, with the rider of the "white horse" beginning his ride, after receiving "a crown" and then goes "forth conquering and to complete his conquest."(Rev 6:2) Since you recognize that the "horse" pictures warfare (Prov 21:31) and that "white" represents righteousness (Dan 7:9, Isa 1:18, Rev 3:4, 5; 6:11), and that the rider receives "a crown", what would this mean ? That the one on the "white horse" is a righteous warrior who has been given kingship, fighting for God.

At Daniel 7:13, 14, Daniel sees in vision that "there came with the clouds of heaven one like a son of man, and he came up even to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him." In coming before the "Ancient of Days", God, what was given him ? "And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all peoples, nations, and languages should serve him:"(Darby's Bible) Who, in the Bible, is called "the son of man" ? Jesus Christ calls himself "the Son of man" at least 30 times in the book of Matthew. Hence, Jesus receives a "kingdom", and therefore is given "a crown", even as seen at Daniel 7:13, 14.

The receiving of a "kingdom" for Jesus Christ, occurs during the time of the ' small horn ' that has a "mouth speaking grandiose things"(Dan 7:8), coming forth from the ' fourth wild beast ', the Roman Empire. Being as the 'small horn ' is the result of the dissolution of the Roman Empire, this would project Jesus receiving "a crown" far into the future, down till near the beginning of the twentieth century. How can this be known ?

Though the Roman Empire, as a nation ended in 476 C.E., with the removal of the emperor by Germanic king Odoacer, the Holy Roman Empire still continued. While the Roman Empire was thriving, Encarta Encyclopedia notes: "During the first two centuries AD the empire flourished and added new territories, notably ancient Britain, Arabia, and Dacia (present-day Romania)."(Microsoft ® Encarta ® Reference Library 2005)

Thus, from among the various territories that Rome controlled, came forth a 'small horn ', a nation that initially had little power, but grew to become a noted world power. Who was this ? Britain. King Henry VIII of England broke free of Roman control in 1534, and as Eric Delderfield stated in his book Kings and Queens of England: “Henry carried on his father’s work of creating an effective Navy. . . . At his death, Henry had added some eighty ships to Naval strength and so began the challenge to the maritime supremacy of Spain.â€

Over the centuries the British power was transformed into a vast empire that Daniel Webster, a famous 19th-century American politician, described as “a power to which, for purposes of foreign conquest and subjugation, Rome in the height of her glory is not to be compared,—a power which has dotted over the surface of the whole globe with her possessions and military posts.†Soon the British Empire was closely linked in political and military affairs with its former colonies of North America. Thus the seventh king of Revelation 17:10 appeared, the Anglo-American Dual World Power.

And Daniel 2, with the vision of the "immense image", parallels with Daniel 7. Hence, the book of Daniel gives the time frame for Jesus to receive "a crown" as king of God's kingdom, as occurring in the "final part of the days"(Dan 2:28), with the "legs of iron" (Dan 2:33) representing the Roman Empire and the "feet and toes" (Dan 2:41) as all human governments resulting from Rome's dissolution. Daniel 2:44 says that "in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom."(King James Bible)

Thus, during the time of "feet and toes" of the "immense image" (when Britain and America joined together as a world power) has God established his heavenly government, during the "final part of the days", our time period, and at which time, "a crown" was given to Jesus as the rider of the "white horse". The riders of the other ' horses' go forth because of Jesus being given "a crown".(Rev 6:3-8)

 

[lecoop]

Why do you feel that they are different ? In the Bible, the horse often symbolizes warfare. (Psalm 20:7; Proverbs 21:31; Isaiah 31:1) This horse, likely a beautiful stallion, gleams with a whiteness that indicates unblemished holiness. (Compare Revelation 1:14; 4:4; 7:9; 20:11.) How appropriate this is, for it portrays warfare that is clean and righteous in God’s holy eyes!

Who is the Rider of this horse at Revelation 6:2 ? He has a bow, an offensive weapon of war, but he is also given a crown. The only righteous ones seen wearing crowns during the Lord’s day are Jesus and the class represented by the 24 elders. (Daniel 7:13, 14, 27; Luke 1:31-33; Revelation 4:4, 10; 14:14) A member of the group of 24 elders would not be pictured as receiving a crown on his own merit. Hence, this lone horseman must be Jesus Christ and no other.

Nadab, I really wanted to comment. Yes, I agree that the horse is to represent warfare, and the color white is to represent righteousness. But what is this horse AND rider a picture of? What is it to represent? If you understand the CONTEXT of the first seal, meaning the vison of the throne room, you see that the first seal was broken about 33 AD. What was righteous on earth after Jesus ascended to be at the Father's right hand? ONLY the church. This first seal is to represent the church, starting out on the great commission.

Coop

The first seal was not opened in 33 C.E., for at Revelation 1:10, John says that "I became in the Spirit (or by inspiration in) the Lord's day, and I heard behind me a great voice as of a trumpet."(Darby's Bible) The "Lord's day" was yet future from the time of John, who wrote down the book of Revelation in about 96 C.E.

The apostle Paul wrote that "of this I am fully persuaded, that He who has begun a good work in you will go on completing it until the day of Jesus Christ."(Phil 1:6, Montgomery New Testament) And Paul said that a true Christian should be "blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ."(1 Cor 1:8, King James Bible) Thus, the "day of Jesus Christ" is the same as the "Lord's day" in the book of Revelation, still yet future from the time of both Paul and John.

John, "by inspiration", was projected far into the future to see climatic events "in the Lord's day", events which start with the opening of the first seal, with the rider of the "white horse" beginning his ride, after receiving "a crown" and then goes "forth conquering and to complete his conquest."(Rev 6:2) Since you recognize that the "horse" pictures warfare (Prov 21:31) and that "white" represents righteousness (Dan 7:9, Isa 1:18, Rev 3:4, 5; 6:11), and that the rider receives "a crown", what would this mean ? That the one on the "white horse" is a righteous warrior who has been given kingship, fighting for God.

At Daniel 7:13, 14, Daniel sees in vision that "there came with the clouds of heaven one like a son of man, and he came up even to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him." In coming before the "Ancient of Days", God, what was given him ? "And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all peoples, nations, and languages should serve him:"(Darby's Bible) Who, in the Bible, is called "the son of man" ? Jesus Christ calls himself "the Son of man" at least 30 times in the book of Matthew. Hence, Jesus receives a "kingdom", and therefore is given "a crown", even as seen at Daniel 7:13, 14.

The receiving of a "kingdom" for Jesus Christ, occurs during the time of the ' small horn ' that has a "mouth speaking grandiose things"(Dan 7:8), coming forth from the ' fourth wild beast ', the Roman Empire. Being as the 'small horn ' is the result of the dissolution of the Roman Empire, this would project Jesus receiving "a crown" far into the future, down till near the beginning of the twentieth century. How can this be known ?

Though the Roman Empire, as a nation ended in 476 C.E., with the removal of the emperor by Germanic king Odoacer, the Holy Roman Empire still continued. While the Roman Empire was thriving, Encarta Encyclopedia notes: "During the first two centuries AD the empire flourished and added new territories, notably ancient Britain, Arabia, and Dacia (present-day Romania)."(Microsoft ® Encarta ® Reference Library 2005)

Thus, from among the various territories that Rome controlled, came forth a 'small horn ', a nation that initially had little power, but grew to become a noted world power. Who was this ? Britain. King Henry VIII of England broke free of Roman control in 1534, and as Eric Delderfield stated in his book Kings and Queens of England: “Henry carried on his father’s work of creating an effective Navy. . . . At his death, Henry had added some eighty ships to Naval strength and so began the challenge to the maritime supremacy of Spain.â€

Over the centuries the British power was transformed into a vast empire that Daniel Webster, a famous 19th-century American politician, described as “a power to which, for purposes of foreign conquest and subjugation, Rome in the height of her glory is not to be compared,—a power which has dotted over the surface of the whole globe with her possessions and military posts.†Soon the British Empire was closely linked in political and military affairs with its former colonies of North America. Thus the seventh king of Revelation 17:10 appeared, the Anglo-American Dual World Power.

And Daniel 2, with the vision of the "immense image", parallels with Daniel 7. Hence, the book of Daniel gives the time frame for Jesus to receive "a crown" as king of God's kingdom, as occurring in the "final part of the days"(Dan 2:28), with the "legs of iron" (Dan 2:33) representing the Roman Empire and the "feet and toes" (Dan 2:41) as all human governments resulting from Rome's dissolution. Daniel 2:44 says that "in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom."(King James Bible)

Thus, during the time of "feet and toes" of the "immense image" (when Britain and America joined together as a world power) has God established his heavenly government, during the "final part of the days", our time period, and at which time, "a crown" was given to Jesus as the rider of the "white horse". The riders of the other ' horses' go forth because of Jesus being given "a crown".(Rev 6:3-8)

Nadab, do you listen to the Everly brothers? Your post reminded me of their famous song, "dream dream dream."

First off, you based this entire post on a falacy: John was in the spirit on SUNDAY, the day that Jesus rose from the dead. He was not transported in the future, for the vision of the throne room, was a vision of HIS PAST, back to a time before Jesus rose from the dead.

You have built a sand castle. God established his heavenly kingdom before the earth was created. The kingdom that is to be set up, is the PHYSICAL kingdom, and its time is close, but not here yet.
(Dan. 2:44)

You have totally missed the intent of the author: the first seal was broken about 33 AD. Where was Jesus then? Of course, just as John showed Him in the vision, He had just ascended, went straight to the Father and got the book, and began breaking the seals.

Daniel tells us of two "little horns." In Daniel 7, the little horn is to represent the beast of Rev. 13. But in Daniel 8, that little horn came from Alexander the Great's kingdom after his death; and refers to Antiochus Epiphanes.

Coop

 

[sixth seal]

no, we are not in the middle of the sixth seal. if we were, then we would be in the midst of horrible calamities and mass hysteria. in fact, most, if not all means of communication would be done away with and we would therefore be unable to communicate right now via internet.

the sixth seal is an incredibly large cataclylsmic event involving the entire earth. in fact, it seems to describe what is today called a "pole shift". in this event, "every island and mountain" would surely be moved from their places, as during a pole shift, the earth's crust is completely transfigured.

this giant calaminity is said to occur unexpectedly and ferociously. jesus said it will happen like a theif in the night. paul said in 1 thessalonians 5:3: "While people are saying, "Peace and safety," destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape."

i could say a lot about this subject as i've studied it immensely (my username is sixth seal for crying out loud ), but i will just leave it at that.

 

[lecoop]

no, we are not in the middle of the sixth seal. if we were, then we would be in the midst of horrible calamities and mass hysteria. in fact, most, if not all means of communication would be done away with and we would therefore be unable to communicate right now via internet.

the sixth seal is an incredibly large cataclylsmic event involving the entire earth. in fact, it seems to describe what is today called a "pole shift". in this event, "every island and mountain" would surely be moved from their places, as during a pole shift, the earth's crust is completely transfigured.

this giant calaminity is said to occur unexpectedly and ferociously. jesus said it will happen like a theif in the night. paul said in 1 thessalonians 5:3: "While people are saying, "Peace and safety," destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape."

i could say a lot about this subject as i've studied it immensely (my username is sixth seal for crying out loud ), but i will just leave it at that.

6th seal!

He he! Nice username!! I wonder how long some people imagine this 6th seal events will last?
As I see it, the first event of the sixth seal, will take seconds, or less; and that will be the dead in Christ rising, which I believe with happen at the same moment as (and may be the cause of) the worldwide earthquake. Then maybe a moment later, the rapture of the church - those that are alive and remain will be caught up. Then, the moon will appear as blood - and the sun darkened. Is it possible that the signs in the sun and moon will come slightly before the rapture/earthquake - as a warning? I doubt it.

As I see it, the events of the 6th seal will take place over a very short period of time. Possibly in a few minutes - or a few hours; time for people to run to the mountains and hide in caves, and cry for the mountains to fall on them.

Sixth Seal, how long do you think these events will take?

Coop

 

[nadab]

Yes, of course when His "presense" is here, HE will be here, and so it will be a COMING. What part of this does NOT sound like a "coming" to you? Coop

The word "presence", as expressed by Jesus apostles and Jesus himself, is not a physical presence or appearance here on the earth. Rather, at Matthew 24:3, four of Jesus apostles were literally asking, "How will we know when you come into kingdom power ? What will be "the sign of your (invisible) presence", the turning of your attention to the earth from heaven after becoming king of God's kingdom ? What features will comprise a visible "sign" that will identify your ruling from heaven upon your inauguration as king, unseen to the human eyes ?

There is difference between the word "presence" and the word "coming", which many who read the Bible cannot distinguish. When one looks at the dictionary meaning, even here there is difference, for the word "coming" means "happening soon: about to happen or start", and uses this sentence to further understand it: "In the coming election campaign you can expect a media barrage on TV."(Microsoft® Encarta® Reference Library 2005)

Concerning the word "presence", the same dictionary says: "being present: the physical existence of somebody or something in a particular place" and uses this sentence to explain it: "Our presence is requested at the board meeting."

Hence, there is a clear distinction between someone's "presence" and awaiting for their "coming". If you will look at the online interlinear. Scripture4all, at Matthew 24:3, you can readily see that the Greek word pa·rou·si´as means "beside-being" or the state of being beside someone from that time onward. On the other hand, the word "coming" is rightly rendered from the Greek word er·kho´me·non, as seen at Matthew 24:30, whereby Jesus "coming" is noted as the point of arrival.

At Philippians 2:12, for example, Paul speaks of the Philippian Christians as obeying “not during my presence [pa·rou·si´ai] only, but now much more readily during my absence [a·pou·si´ai].†So, too, at 2 Corinthians 10:10, 11, after referring to those who said that “his letters are weighty and forceful, but his presence [pa·rou·si´a] in person is weak and his speech contemptible,†Thus, the contrast is between presence and absence, not between an arrival (or coming) and departure.

In view of this, J. B. Rotherham’s Emphasised Bible states in its appendix (p. 271): “In this edition the word parousia is uniformly rendered ‘presence’ (‘coming,’ as a representative of this word, being set aside). . . . The sense of ‘presence’ is so plainly [shown] by the contrast with ‘absence’ . . . that the question naturally arises,—Why not always so render it?â€

That Jesus’ pa·rou·si´a is not simply a momentary coming followed by a rapid departure but is, rather, a presence covering a period of time is also indicated by his words recorded at Matthew 24:37-39 and Luke 17:26-30. Here “the days of Noah†are compared to “the presence of the Son of man†(“the days of the Son of man,†in Luke’s account). Jesus, therefore, does not limit the comparison just to the coming of the Deluge as a final climax during Noah’s days, though he shows that his own “presence†or “days†will see a similar climax.

Since “the days of Noah†actually covered a period of years (perhaps 120 years, Gen 6:3), there is sound basis for understanding that the foretold “presence [or “daysâ€] of the Son of man†would likewise cover a period of some years, being climaxed by the destruction of those not giving heed to the opportunity afforded them to seek deliverance.

That a pa·rou·si´a can be invisible is indicated by Paul’s use of the related verb form (pa´rei·mi) when speaking of being “present in spirit†though absent in body. (1Cor 5:3) So, too, Jewish historian Josephus, writing in Greek, refers to God’s pa·rou·si´a at Mount Sinai, his invisible presence being evidenced by the thunders and lightning.—Jewish Antiquities, III, 80 (v, 2).

The Scripturalness of an invisible presence is also borne out by God’s saying to Moses regarding the ark of the covenant in the Most Holy of the tabernacle: “And I will present myself to you there and speak with you from above the cover.†(Ex 25:22) God€™s presence was not in a visible form, since the Scriptures are clear that “no man has seen God at any timeâ€â€”neither Moses nor the high priest who entered the Most Holy. (John 1:18; Ex 33:20)

 

[sixth seal]

6th seal!

He he! Nice username!! I wonder how long some people imagine this 6th seal events will last?
As I see it, the first event of the sixth seal, will take seconds, or less; and that will be the dead in Christ rising, which I believe with happen at the same moment as (and may be the cause of) the worldwide earthquake. Then maybe a moment later, the rapture of the church - those that are alive and remain will be caught up. Then, the moon will appear as blood - and the sun darkened. Is it possible that the signs in the sun and moon will come slightly before the rapture/earthquake - as a warning? I doubt it.

As I see it, the events of the 6th seal will take place over a very short period of time. Possibly in a few minutes - or a few hours; time for people to run to the mountains and hide in caves, and cry for the mountains to fall on them.

Sixth Seal, how long do you think these events will take?

Coop

i agree with you, the sixth seal will happen extremely fast. a geographical pole shift is something that would take little time.

i recommend reading the book "earthquake resurrection" by david w lowe. he really puts the puzzle pieces together regarding the sixth seal event, rapture, resurrection, etc...

http://www.earthquakeresurrection.com/

"Earthquake Resurrection explores the possibility that the disappearance of a large group of believers worldwide will be masked by global catastrophe. This possibility is based on a pattern found in scripture that the power unleashed when a human being is resurrected into an immortal body causes a shaking of the surrounding earth. The pattern is evident with the two recorded historic instances of the resurrection of Jesus Christ and the "many saints who had died" in Matthew 27, as well as with the resurrection of the two witnesses of Revelation chapter 11 in the future.
What does this portend for the future, much larger, global resurrection of the dead in Christ? Will there be a global shaking of the earth from the power of the resurrection? What is the purpose of the "harpazo", the Greek term for the quick and sudden snatching or seizure of believers just after the resurrection of the dead in Christ? Is there some kind of harm from which they need be snatched away? What is the "trump of God" that accompanies the event? If God's voice was described as the sound of a trumpet in scripture, and in the past it caused Mount Sinai and the surrounding area to shake greatly, will this also occur when the trump of God is sounded at the resurrection of the dead in Christ?"

 

[veteran]

It's period of shaking the earth to destroy and burn man's works off this earth, the "elements" Peter mentioned that will happen on the day of The Lord when Christ comes "as a thief" (2 Peter 3:10). God's consuming fire is to accompany that event (see end of Hebrews 12 and 2 Peter 3).

It is also the time of destruction of the world system and world powers upon this earth in the end. Per the Old Testament prophets, it is to happen very quickly, at an instant, even like turning a bottle upside down with its contents being poured out. It happens at the "twinkling of an eye" according to Apostle Paul in 1 Cor.15. It is when all who remain on earth will be 'changed' to resurrection bodies, which includes the resurrection of the unjust also being changed. ALL alive on earth will go through it, included those of Faith who remain steadfast in Christ waiting for His coming. There's no need to thrown in men's traditions about those of Faith needing to leave this earth to make it through that event, for even the unjust of the nations are shown making through it in Zechariah 14. It's not the flesh that is to survive it anyway. None will be raised to another new corruptible body, but to incorruptible bodies, the "spiritual body" Paul taught.

 

[lecoop]

Yes, of course when His "presense" is here, HE will be here, and so it will be a COMING. What part of this does NOT sound like a "coming" to you? Coop

The word "presence", as expressed by Jesus apostles and Jesus himself, is not a physical presence or appearance here on the earth. Rather, at Matthew 24:3, four of Jesus apostles were literally asking, "How will we know when you come into kingdom power ? What will be "the sign of your (invisible) presence", the turning of your attention to the earth from heaven after becoming king of God's kingdom ? What features will comprise a visible "sign" that will identify your ruling from heaven upon your inauguration as king, unseen to the human eyes ?

There is difference between the word "presence" and the word "coming", which many who read the Bible cannot distinguish. When one looks at the dictionary meaning, even here there is difference, for the word "coming" means "happening soon: about to happen or start", and uses this sentence to further understand it: "In the coming election campaign you can expect a media barrage on TV."(Microsoft® Encarta® Reference Library 2005)

Concerning the word "presence", the same dictionary says: "being present: the physical existence of somebody or something in a particular place" and uses this sentence to explain it: "Our presence is requested at the board meeting."

Hence, there is a clear distinction between someone's "presence" and awaiting for their "coming". If you will look at the online interlinear. Scripture4all, at Matthew 24:3, you can readily see that the Greek word pa·rou·si´as means "beside-being" or the state of being beside someone from that time onward. On the other hand, the word "coming" is rightly rendered from the Greek word er·kho´me·non, as seen at Matthew 24:30, whereby Jesus "coming" is noted as the point of arrival.

At Philippians 2:12, for example, Paul speaks of the Philippian Christians as obeying “not during my presence [pa·rou·si´ai] only, but now much more readily during my absence [a·pou·si´ai].†So, too, at 2 Corinthians 10:10, 11, after referring to those who said that “his letters are weighty and forceful, but his presence [pa·rou·si´a] in person is weak and his speech contemptible,†Thus, the contrast is between presence and absence, not between an arrival (or coming) and departure.

In view of this, J. B. Rotherham’s Emphasised Bible states in its appendix (p. 271): “In this edition the word parousia is uniformly rendered ‘presence’ (‘coming,’ as a representative of this word, being set aside). . . . The sense of ‘presence’ is so plainly [shown] by the contrast with ‘absence’ . . . that the question naturally arises,—Why not always so render it?â€

That Jesus’ pa·rou·si´a is not simply a momentary coming followed by a rapid departure but is, rather, a presence covering a period of time is also indicated by his words recorded at Matthew 24:37-39 and Luke 17:26-30. Here “the days of Noah†are compared to “the presence of the Son of man†(“the days of the Son of man,†in Luke’s account). Jesus, therefore, does not limit the comparison just to the coming of the Deluge as a final climax during Noah’s days, though he shows that his own “presence†or “days†will see a similar climax.

Since “the days of Noah†actually covered a period of years (perhaps 120 years, Gen 6:3), there is sound basis for understanding that the foretold “presence [or “daysâ€] of the Son of man†would likewise cover a period of some years, being climaxed by the destruction of those not giving heed to the opportunity afforded them to seek deliverance.

That a pa·rou·si´a can be invisible is indicated by Paul’s use of the related verb form (pa´rei·mi) when speaking of being “present in spirit†though absent in body. (1Cor 5:3) So, too, Jewish historian Josephus, writing in Greek, refers to God’s pa·rou·si´a at Mount Sinai, his invisible presence being evidenced by the thunders and lightning.—Jewish Antiquities, III, 80 (v, 2).

The Scripturalness of an invisible presence is also borne out by God’s saying to Moses regarding the ark of the covenant in the Most Holy of the tabernacle: “And I will present myself to you there and speak with you from above the cover.†(Ex 25:22) God’s presence was not in a visible form, since the Scriptures are clear that “no man has seen God at any timeâ€â€”neither Moses nor the high priest who entered the Most Holy. (John 1:18; Ex 33:20)

Coming: no need of a dictionary: just some common horse sense and the ability to read:

1 Thes 4
16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air:

Let's be very clear about this: for those that remain in heaven, Jesus is GOING, but to us on the earth, Jesus is COMING. And once He has COME, we meet Him in the air. So why must you make this simple event, so simple a child could understand, into something difficult? Jesus is COMING to get His church. When He COMES, His presence will be here, for we will be WITH Him.

Then again, when He comes on the white horse (a DIFFERENT coming) He again leaves heaven and descends to earth. But this time, He is not leaving. There is nothing confusing about this.

Coop

 

[lecoop]

It's period of shaking the earth to destroy and burn man's works off this earth, the "elements" Peter mentioned that will happen on the day of The Lord when Christ comes "as a thief" (2 Peter 3:10). God's consuming fire is to accompany that event (see end of Hebrews 12 and 2 Peter 3).

It is also the time of destruction of the world system and world powers upon this earth in the end. Per the Old Testament prophets, it is to happen very quickly, at an instant, even like turning a bottle upside down with its contents being poured out. It happens at the "twinkling of an eye" according to Apostle Paul in 1 Cor.15. It is when all who remain on earth will be 'changed' to resurrection bodies, which includes the resurrection of the unjust also being changed. ALL alive on earth will go through it, included those of Faith who remain steadfast in Christ waiting for His coming. There's no need to thrown in men's traditions about those of Faith needing to leave this earth to make it through that event, for even the unjust of the nations are shown making through it in Zechariah 14. It's not the flesh that is to survive it anyway. None will be raised to another new corruptible body, but to incorruptible bodies, the "spiritual body" Paul taught.

Veteran, we are talking specifically of the 6th seal, not the entire 70th week. The sixth seal events are the SIGNs of the coming day of the Lord - not the day of the Lord itself. I am agreed that it will come suddenly, as a thief in the night. (1 thes 5) Paul speaks of two groups there, "Us, ye, and you," versus "they and them." They and them, get caught by sudden destruction, and the "us, ye and you" escape that sudden destruction - for we have "no appointment with wrath." Paul is telling us that immediately following these events that come suddenly and bring sudden destruction will be the time of God's wrath. Of course, this is exactly what John shows us in Revelation. VEry shortly after he saw the 6th seal events, he saw the raptured church in heaven, and then he could show the breaking of the 7th seal, which officially opens the day of the Lord, AND God's wrath. As Paul said, we have no appointment, and the sudden destruction does not get US, because we are GONE.

You are trying to make TOO MUCH happen at the 6th seal. It is ONLY the signs of the coming Day of the Lord. Please don't try to rearrange where God and John has put it; just before the day of the Lord and the 70th week. The destruction of the world system comes at the END of the 70th week, at the 7th vial. That will be about 7 years AFTER this 6th seal event.

Coop

 

[Mysteryman]

Quote Coop: "1 Thes 4
16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air:

Let's be very clear about this: for those that remain in heaven, Jesus is GOING, but to us on the earth, Jesus is COMING. And once He has COME, we meet Him in the air. So why must you make this simple event, so simple a child could understand, into something difficult. Jesus is COMING to get His church. When He COMES, His presence will be here, for we will be WITH Him."


Hi Coop

It is simple and yet you still make a mess of it, why ?

You say that when Jesus comes to get his Church his presence will be here. Yet the scriptures in Thess. tell us that we will meet him in the air and in the clouds. Which is simply not here on this earth ! Thess. is clear that both the dead in Christ and those who remain alive, at his coming to gather up the church, will meet him in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air.

Your right, it is so simple a child can understand this ! But grown up people who manipulate scripture come up with their own doctorine.

 

[lecoop]

Quote Coop: "1 Thes 4
16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air:

Let's be very clear about this: for those that remain in heaven, Jesus is GOING, but to us on the earth, Jesus is COMING. And once He has COME, we meet Him in the air. So why must you make this simple event, so simple a child could understand, into something difficult. Jesus is COMING to get His church. When He COMES, His presence will be here, for we will be WITH Him."


Hi Coop

It is simple and yet you still make a mess of it, why ?

You say that when Jesus comes to get his Church his presence will be here. Yet the scriptures in Thess. tell us that we will meet him in the air and in the clouds. Which is simply not here on this earth ! Thess. is clear that both the dead in Christ and those who remain alive, at his coming to gather up the church, will meet him in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air.

Your right, it is so simple a child can understand this ! But grown up people who manipulate scripture come up with their own doctorine.

Quote from Coop's post above:

"Let's be very clear about this: for those that remain in heaven, Jesus is GOING, but to us on the earth, Jesus is COMING. And once He has COME, we meet Him in the air...

Are you preconceived glasses preventing you from seeing?

Coop