are we in the middle of the 6th seal?

[lecoop]

Coop
First off, you based this entire post on a falacy: John was in the spirit on SUNDAY, the day that Jesus rose from the dead. He was not transported in the future, for the vision of the throne room, was a vision of HIS PAST, back to a time before Jesus rose from the dead.

John was indeed transported in spirit to the future,this was not a Sunday...In the below verses,are all these Day of the Lord,Sundays

Isaiah 2:12
For the day of the LORD of hosts shall be upon every one that is proud and lofty, and upon every one that is lifted up; and he shall be brought low:


Isaiah 13:6
Howl ye; for the day of the LORD is at hand; it shall come as a destruction from the Almighty.


Isaiah 13:9
Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.


Jeremiah 46:10
For this is the day of the Lord GOD of hosts, a day of vengeance, that he may avenge him of his adversaries: and the sword shall devour, and it shall be satiate and made drunk with their blood: for the Lord GOD of hosts hath a sacrifice in the north country by the river Euphrates.


Ezekiel 13:5
Ye have not gone up into the gaps, neither made up the hedge for the house of Israel to stand in the battle in the day of the LORD.


Ezekiel 30:3
For the day is near, even the day of the LORD is near, a cloudy day; it shall be the time of the heathen.


Joel 1:15
Alas for the day! for the day of the LORD is at hand, and as a destruction from the Almighty shall it come.


Joel 2:1
Blow ye the trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm in my holy mountain: let all the inhabitants of the land tremble: for the day of the LORD cometh, for it is nigh at hand;


Joel 2:11
And the LORD shall utter his voice before his army: for his camp is very great: for he is strong that executeth his word: for the day of the LORD is great and very terrible; and who can abide it?


Joel 2:31
The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and terrible day of the LORD come.


Joel 3:14
Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision: for the day of the LORD is near in the valley of decision.


Amos 5:18
Woe unto you that desire the day of the LORD! to what end is it for you? the day of the LORD is darkness, and not light.


Amos 5:20
Shall not the day of the LORD be darkness, and not light? even very dark, and no brightness in it?


Obadiah 1:15
For the day of the LORD is near upon all the heathen: as thou hast done, it shall be done unto thee: thy reward shall return upon thine own head.


Zephaniah 1:7
Hold thy peace at the presence of the Lord GOD: for the day of the LORD is at hand: for the LORD hath prepared a sacrifice, he hath bid his guests.


Zephaniah 1:14
The great day of the LORD is near, it is near, and hasteth greatly, even the voice of the day of the LORD: the mighty man shall cry there bitterly.


Zechariah 14:1
Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.


Malachi 4:5
Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD:


Acts 2:20
The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and notable day of the Lord come:


1 Corinthians 5:5
To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.


2 Corinthians 1:14
As also ye have acknowledged us in part, that we are your rejoicing, even as ye also are our's in the day of the Lord Jesus.


1 Thessalonians 5:2
For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.


2 Peter 3:10
But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

Or are you saying the Day of the Lord and the Lord's day are different?

Let's look at the verse in question

Revelation 1:10 "I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,"

This verse is the key to understanding the book of Revelation. Without a clear and full understanding of it, the entire book just will not make sense. The sequence of order will seem strange.

"I"; this is John speaking and telling us where he was. "I was in the Spirit", not in his flesh body; "on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet". John is taken forward in time, "in the Spirit", to the day of the Lord. The "Day of the Lord" is not referring to Sunday or Saturday. This is the same "Day of the Lord" Paul speaks about in I Thessalonians 5:2, as "coming as a thief in the night". Later in II Thessalonians 2:2-3 Paul makes it clear that at the "Day of the Lord" Christ's return will not happen until "after there will be a great falling away first; and "that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition". Satan must be revealed in his role as the Antichrist first, before that seventh trumpet can sound, the last trumpet.

The time, or day, John was taken to was beyond our time frame, however we are living in the generation that will see it come to pass, and live through what John saw and lived, while in the Spirit. There is only one day that is called "The Day of the Lord" in all the Scriptures.

If you think this is a Sunday,you are greatly mistaken.....

The Lord's day: "?? ???????? ?????" or "EN TH kuriakh hmera" or "kyriakos h?mera"

"On the Lord's day"
Adam CLark Commentary:
"The Lord's day
The first day of the week, observed as the Christian Sabbath, because on it Jesus Christ rose from the dead; therefore it was called the Lord's day, and has taken place of the Jewish Sabbath throughout the Christian world. "

John Gill Commentary:
I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day…
Not on the Jewish sabbath, which was now abolished, nor was that ever called the Lord's day, and had John meant that, he would have said on the sabbath day; much less the Jewish passover, but the first day of the week is designed;

Barne's Notes:
(b) if the Jewish Sabbath were intended to be designated, the word Sabbath would have been used. The term was used generally by the early Christians to denote the first day of the week. It occurs twice in the Epistle of Ignatius to the Magnesians, (about A.D. 101,) who calls the Lord's day "the queen and prince of all days." Chrysostom (on Psalms 119) says, "It was called the Lord's day because the Lord rose from the dead on that day."

John Darby
Such is the introduction to this book. We now enter on its contents. John was in the Spirit on the Lord's day. It is his place and privilege however then, as a Christian, which is spoken of, not the prophetic period into which He entered. In the day of resurrection-his own place-the day on which Christians meet,


Geneva Study Bible
(h) This is a holy trance expressed, with which the prophets were entranced, and being carried out of the world, conversed with God: and so Ezekiel says often, that he was carried from place to place by the Spirit, and that the Spirit of the Lord came on him.
(i) He calls it the Lord’s day, which Paul calls the first day of the week; (1 Corinthians 16:2).

David Guzik Commentary
b. On the Lord's Day: When is the Lord's Day? Among the pagans of the Roman Empire, the first day of each month was called "Emperors Day" in honor of the Roman Emperor. Perhaps Christians proclaimed their allegiance to Jesus by honoring the first day of the week as their own Lord's Day.

i. This is not the same term used for The Day of the LORD in the Old Testament, nor is it the same idea. The Book of Revelation will definitely deal with the idea of The Day of the LORD, but it doesn't do it here.

Jamieson Fausset & Brown Commentary
on the Lord's day--Though forcibly detained from Church communion with the brethren in the sanctuary on the Lord's day, the weekly commemoration of the resurrection, John was holding spiritual communion with them. This is the earliest mention of the term, "the Lord's day." But the consecration of the day to worship, almsgiving, and the Lord's Supper, is implied...

Matthew Henry Commentary
it was the Lord's day, the day which Christ had separated and set apart for himself, as the eucharist is called the Lord's supper. Surely this can be no other than the Christian sabbath, the first day of the week, to be observed in remembrance of the resurrection of Christ. Let us who call him our Lord honour him on his own day, the day which the Lord hath made and in which we ought to rejoice.

The People's Bible
On the Lord's day. The day of the Lord's Resurrection, the first day of the week. In the earlier apostolic writings the day was called "the first day of the week," but by the close of the century it began to be called "the Lord's day," as here. Epistles of Barnabas, Ignatius and Dionysius, written near this time, so style it, and the name is of common occurrence from this time onward, and is confined to Sunday.

Robertson's Word Pictures
On the Lord's Day (en thi kuriakhi hmerai).
Deissmann has proven (Bible Studies, p. 217f.; Light, etc., p. 357ff.) from inscriptions and papyri that the word kuriakov was in common use for the sense "imperial" as imperial finance and imperial treasury and from papyri and ostraca that hmera Sebasth (Augustus Day) was the first day of each month, Emperor's Day on which money payments were made (cf. 1 Corinthians 16:1). It was easy, therefore, for the Christians to take this term, already in use, and apply it to the first day of the week in honour of the Lord Jesus Christ's resurrection on that day (Didache 14, Ignatius Magn. 9). In the N.T. the word occurs only here and 1 Corinthians 11:20 (kuriakon deipnon te Lord'v Supper). It has no reference to hmera kuriou (the day of judgment, 2 Peter 3:10).

John Wesley's notes
On the Lord's day - On this our Lord rose from the dead: on this the ancients believed he will come to judgment. It was, therefore, with the utmost propriety that St. John on this day both saw and described his coming.

Sorry, I could not find any more. It seems 100% they voted against you. This phrase is simply not talking about the "day of the Lord," John is only telling us that it was on a Sunday when he became "in the spirit."

Next, it is certainly not important that we miss the intent of the Holy Spirit here so we can understand the rest of the book.

Perhaps now you have given away how you see the rest of the book.

Coop

 

[n2thelight]

Coop
First off, you based this entire post on a falacy: John was in the spirit on SUNDAY, the day that Jesus rose from the dead. He was not transported in the future, for the vision of the throne room, was a vision of HIS PAST, back to a time before Jesus rose from the dead.

John was indeed transported in spirit to the future,this was not a Sunday...In the below verses,are all these Day of the Lord,Sundays

Isaiah 2:12
For the day of the LORD of hosts shall be upon every one that is proud and lofty, and upon every one that is lifted up; and he shall be brought low:


Isaiah 13:6
Howl ye; for the day of the LORD is at hand; it shall come as a destruction from the Almighty.


Isaiah 13:9
Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.


Jeremiah 46:10
For this is the day of the Lord GOD of hosts, a day of vengeance, that he may avenge him of his adversaries: and the sword shall devour, and it shall be satiate and made drunk with their blood: for the Lord GOD of hosts hath a sacrifice in the north country by the river Euphrates.


Ezekiel 13:5
Ye have not gone up into the gaps, neither made up the hedge for the house of Israel to stand in the battle in the day of the LORD.


Ezekiel 30:3
For the day is near, even the day of the LORD is near, a cloudy day; it shall be the time of the heathen.


Joel 1:15
Alas for the day! for the day of the LORD is at hand, and as a destruction from the Almighty shall it come.


Joel 2:1
Blow ye the trumpet in Zion, and sound an alarm in my holy mountain: let all the inhabitants of the land tremble: for the day of the LORD cometh, for it is nigh at hand;


Joel 2:11
And the LORD shall utter his voice before his army: for his camp is very great: for he is strong that executeth his word: for the day of the LORD is great and very terrible; and who can abide it?


Joel 2:31
The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and terrible day of the LORD come.


Joel 3:14
Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision: for the day of the LORD is near in the valley of decision.


Amos 5:18
Woe unto you that desire the day of the LORD! to what end is it for you? the day of the LORD is darkness, and not light.


Amos 5:20
Shall not the day of the LORD be darkness, and not light? even very dark, and no brightness in it?


Obadiah 1:15
For the day of the LORD is near upon all the heathen: as thou hast done, it shall be done unto thee: thy reward shall return upon thine own head.


Zephaniah 1:7
Hold thy peace at the presence of the Lord GOD: for the day of the LORD is at hand: for the LORD hath prepared a sacrifice, he hath bid his guests.


Zephaniah 1:14
The great day of the LORD is near, it is near, and hasteth greatly, even the voice of the day of the LORD: the mighty man shall cry there bitterly.


Zechariah 14:1
Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.


Malachi 4:5
Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD:


Acts 2:20
The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and notable day of the Lord come:


1 Corinthians 5:5
To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.


2 Corinthians 1:14
As also ye have acknowledged us in part, that we are your rejoicing, even as ye also are our's in the day of the Lord Jesus.


1 Thessalonians 5:2
For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.


2 Peter 3:10
But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

Or are you saying the Day of the Lord and the Lord's day are different?

Let's look at the verse in question

Revelation 1:10 "I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,"

This verse is the key to understanding the book of Revelation. Without a clear and full understanding of it, the entire book just will not make sense. The sequence of order will seem strange.

"I"; this is John speaking and telling us where he was. "I was in the Spirit", not in his flesh body; "on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet". John is taken forward in time, "in the Spirit", to the day of the Lord. The "Day of the Lord" is not referring to Sunday or Saturday. This is the same "Day of the Lord" Paul speaks about in I Thessalonians 5:2, as "coming as a thief in the night". Later in II Thessalonians 2:2-3 Paul makes it clear that at the "Day of the Lord" Christ's return will not happen until "after there will be a great falling away first; and "that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition". Satan must be revealed in his role as the Antichrist first, before that seventh trumpet can sound, the last trumpet.

The time, or day, John was taken to was beyond our time frame, however we are living in the generation that will see it come to pass, and live through what John saw and lived, while in the Spirit. There is only one day that is called "The Day of the Lord" in all the Scriptures.

If you think this is a Sunday,you are greatly mistaken.....

The Lord's day: "?? ???????? ?????" or "EN TH kuriakh hmera" or "kyriakos h?mera"

"On the Lord's day"
Adam CLark Commentary:
"The Lord's day
The first day of the week, observed as the Christian Sabbath, because on it Jesus Christ rose from the dead; therefore it was called the Lord's day, and has taken place of the Jewish Sabbath throughout the Christian world. "

John Gill Commentary:
I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day…
Not on the Jewish sabbath, which was now abolished, nor was that ever called the Lord's day, and had John meant that, he would have said on the sabbath day; much less the Jewish passover, but the first day of the week is designed;

Barne's Notes:
(b) if the Jewish Sabbath were intended to be designated, the word Sabbath would have been used. The term was used generally by the early Christians to denote the first day of the week. It occurs twice in the Epistle of Ignatius to the Magnesians, (about A.D. 101,) who calls the Lord's day "the queen and prince of all days." Chrysostom (on Psalms 119) says, "It was called the Lord's day because the Lord rose from the dead on that day."

John Darby
Such is the introduction to this book. We now enter on its contents. John was in the Spirit on the Lord's day. It is his place and privilege however then, as a Christian, which is spoken of, not the prophetic period into which He entered. In the day of resurrection-his own place-the day on which Christians meet,


Geneva Study Bible
(h) This is a holy trance expressed, with which the prophets were entranced, and being carried out of the world, conversed with God: and so Ezekiel says often, that he was carried from place to place by the Spirit, and that the Spirit of the Lord came on him.
(i) He calls it the Lord’s day, which Paul calls the first day of the week; (1 Corinthians 16:2).

David Guzik Commentary
b. On the Lord's Day: When is the Lord's Day? Among the pagans of the Roman Empire, the first day of each month was called "Emperors Day" in honor of the Roman Emperor. Perhaps Christians proclaimed their allegiance to Jesus by honoring the first day of the week as their own Lord's Day.

i. This is not the same term used for The Day of the LORD in the Old Testament, nor is it the same idea. The Book of Revelation will definitely deal with the idea of The Day of the LORD, but it doesn't do it here.

Jamieson Fausset & Brown Commentary
on the Lord's day--Though forcibly detained from Church communion with the brethren in the sanctuary on the Lord's day, the weekly commemoration of the resurrection, John was holding spiritual communion with them. This is the earliest mention of the term, "the Lord's day." But the consecration of the day to worship, almsgiving, and the Lord's Supper, is implied...

Matthew Henry Commentary
it was the Lord's day, the day which Christ had separated and set apart for himself, as the eucharist is called the Lord's supper. Surely this can be no other than the Christian sabbath, the first day of the week, to be observed in remembrance of the resurrection of Christ. Let us who call him our Lord honour him on his own day, the day which the Lord hath made and in which we ought to rejoice.

The People's Bible
On the Lord's day. The day of the Lord's Resurrection, the first day of the week. In the earlier apostolic writings the day was called "the first day of the week," but by the close of the century it began to be called "the Lord's day," as here. Epistles of Barnabas, Ignatius and Dionysius, written near this time, so style it, and the name is of common occurrence from this time onward, and is confined to Sunday.

Robertson's Word Pictures
On the Lord's Day (en thi kuriakhi hmerai).
Deissmann has proven (Bible Studies, p. 217f.; Light, etc., p. 357ff.) from inscriptions and papyri that the word kuriakov was in common use for the sense "imperial" as imperial finance and imperial treasury and from papyri and ostraca that hmera Sebasth (Augustus Day) was the first day of each month, Emperor's Day on which money payments were made (cf. 1 Corinthians 16:1). It was easy, therefore, for the Christians to take this term, already in use, and apply it to the first day of the week in honour of the Lord Jesus Christ's resurrection on that day (Didache 14, Ignatius Magn. 9). In the N.T. the word occurs only here and 1 Corinthians 11:20 (kuriakon deipnon te Lord'v Supper). It has no reference to hmera kuriou (the day of judgment, 2 Peter 3:10).

John Wesley's notes
On the Lord's day - On this our Lord rose from the dead: on this the ancients believed he will come to judgment. It was, therefore, with the utmost propriety that St. John on this day both saw and described his coming.

Sorry, I could not find any more. It seems 100% they voted against you. This phrase is simply not talking about the "day of the Lord," John is only telling us that it was on a Sunday when he became "in the spirit."

Next, it is certainly not important that we miss the intent of the Holy Spirit here so we can understand the rest of the book.

Perhaps now you have given away how you see the rest of the book.

Coop

I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet (KJV).

Notice that this day has something to do with a great voice, like a trumpet.

Look what Paul said about Jesus' return,

For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God" (1 Thes 4:16).

Similarly, Jesus also taught,

And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other (Matthew 24:31).

Does someone wish to argue that Paul or Jesus are talking about Sunday?

There is nothing in the context to suggest that Revelation 1:10 is either.

The simple truth is that there is not one verse in the entire Bible that suggests that Sunday is the Lord's Day. And the only New Testament verse that mentions the expression Lord's day (or Day of the Lord) is Revelation 1:10. One cannot build a biblically supportable argument on one verse taken out of context.

It is only because of mistranslations, heretical writings, influence of non-Christians, and traditions of men, that anyone could have ever suggested that the verse in Revelation 1:10 has anything to do with Sunday.

From a strictly biblical perspective, the only ‘Lord’s Day’ is the seventh day Sabbath. It was Jesus who specifically claimed to be "Lord of the Sabbath" (Mark 2:28).

There is simply nothing in the context of the Book of Revelation to suggest that a particular day of the week, like Sunday, is being referred to. The only way people can see that the Lord's Day in Revelation 1:10 means Sunday is because they read something into the verse that is not there nor supported anywhere else in the Bible. There are also no direct references to any Sunday morning church service in any of the books of the Bible.

The Book of Revelation is prophetic (Revelation 1:1-3). The prophesies include events leading up to, as well as after, the time referred to in the Bible as the ‘Day of The Lord’. The Book of Revelation specifically lists events that the Old Testament prophets stated would be near the ‘Day of the Lord’.

Hence it is clear that Revelation 1:10 is not talking about Sunday as certain theologians suggest. Instead, the Book of Revelation lists many events that occur around the prophesied “Day of the Lord". And that is the biblically logical conclusion.

http://www.cogwriter.com/lordsday.htm

 

[nadab]

Nadab, what you have said seems obvious, but I must disagree. I see his reign as "god of this world" ending at the 7th trumpet. I believe the 7th trumpet marks the midpoint of the week, AND the end of one Millenium, and the begining of the next, and the end of Satan's reign as god of this world. I think Adam's lease will have run out at this time, meaning Satan's lease has run out too. He is immediately after this, kicked out of the heavens, and down to earth. God will give him the 42 months of authority, but it will not be as "god of this world," it will only be as a deceiver. it is written that at the 7th trumpet, the kingdoms of this world, have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ!! Hallelujah!! That is when the lease runs out!

Coop

Coop,

It is not what you see or "believe" or "I think" that matters in regard to understanding the prophetic statements of the Bible, that you say that Satan's "reign" ends at the "seventh trumpet". Rather, the "seventh trumpet" or announcement is when "the kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he will rule forever and ever."(Rev 11:15, International Standard Version)

At that time, Jesus Christ was "given rulership and dignity and kingdom" in 1914 from the "Ancient of Days", Jehovah God.(Dan 7:13, 14) At that time, Satan and his demons were thrown out of heaven, following a war with "Michael (who is Jesus Christ in the heavenly realm) and his angels".(Rev 12:7-9)

Since that time, Satan has been focusing his entire attention on manipulating the "world", because "the accuser of our brothers has been hurled down (to the earth)."(Rev 12:10) The apostle John stated that "the whole world is lying in the power of the wicked one", Satan.(1 John 5:19) Since being thrown out of heaven in 1914 upon Jesus ascension to the throne of God's kingdom, he continues to ' accuse our brothers day and night ', the "woman's seed", Jesus anointed "brothers" who are to reign with him in heaven, and who are loyal to God and his sovereignty here on the earth.

Satan's "reign" does not end with the seventh trumpet, but actually accelerates, for after having been thrown out heaven down to the vicinity of the earth, "Woe to the earth (the structure of human society) and to the sea (the turbulent mass of mankind), because the devil has come down to you, having great rage, knowing he has a short time."(Rev 12:12, Darby' s Bible) When Satan saw that he had been thrown down to the earth, "he started persecuting the woman who had given birth to the male child."(Rev 12:13, William's New Testament)

Satan clearly recognizes that from the time he was thrown out of heaven, after the "kingdom" or "male child" was "born"(Dan 2:44), until he is put into the "abyss", is "a short time." Hence, upon his being cast out of heaven in 1914 until now is "a short time" that is about to end.

 

[nadab]

Coop,

At Revelation 10:7, it says that "in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he is about to blow his trumpet, then shall there be finished the mystery (Greek my·ste?ri·on, more accurately "sacred secret") of God, according to the Good News which he told unto his slaves, the prophets."(Montgomery New Testament) The time for the final "trumpet" had arrived, the "seventh trumpet", in which God's "sacred secret"(Greek my·ste?ri·on) is "indeed brought to a finish", that of Jesus Christ installed as king of God's kingdom in 1914.

Concerning the Greek word my·ste?ri·on, Vine’s Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words explains: “In the [New Testament] it denotes, not the mysterious (as with the Eng. word), but that which, being outside the range of unassisted natural apprehension, can be made known only by Divine revelation, and is made known in a manner and at a time appointed by God, and to those only who are illumined by His Spirit. In the ordinary sense a mystery implies knowledge withheld; its Scriptural significance is truth revealed. Hence the terms especially associated with the subject are ‘made known,’ ‘manifested,’ ‘revealed,’ ‘preached,’ ‘understand,’ ‘dispensation.’â€â€”1981, Vol. 3, p. 97.

Because God's "sacred secret" is "outside the range of unassisted natural apprehension," being "made known in a manner and at a time appointed by God...illumined by His Spirit," most are unable to grasp that we are living during the "seventh trumpet," with Jesus being installed as king of the Messianic kingdom in 1914. The evidence is there (Matt 24:7-14; Mark 13; Luke 21; Rev 6:2-8) for those whom Jesus called "eagles" at Matthew 24:28, spiritually keen-sighted ones who fit what the Greek word sy·ni´e·mi means, that of being able "to put together (mentally)"(Strong's # 4920) the "kingdom."

Concerning the "sacred secrets of the kingdom", Jesus said that the vast majority would be incapable of grasping it's meaning (Matt 13:11), and used the Greek word sy·ni´e·mi six times at Matthew 13 in connection with the "kingdom". Jesus told his disciples, that "the secret truth (Greek my·ste?ri·on, "sacred secret") concerning the kingdom of God has been given to you, but to those outside everything is told in parables."(Mark 4:11, Montgomery New Testament)

The great difference between the sacred secret of God and the secrets of mystery religions is, first of all, in content: God’s secret is good news and is not a lie or man-made deception. (John 8:31, 32, 44; Col 1:5; 1John 2:27) Second, those who are chosen to understand the sacred secret of God are bound, not to keep it secret, but to give it the widest possible proclamation and publication. This is revealed, as noted in the foregoing, by the Bible use of terms such as “preached,†“made known,†“manifested,†and also “declaring,†‘speaking,’ in connection with “the sacred secret of the good news.â€

Hence, in 1914, the "kingdom of the world did become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he will rule as king forever and ever.â€(Rev 11:15) Following the blowing of the "seventh trumpet", with Jesus Christ now installed as king of God's kingdom, other "features" began to happen. Being as the book of Revelation is highly symbolic, then the events and situations are couched in symbolic language.

At Revelation 8:7, it says that after the blowing of the ' first trumpet' by an angel, that "there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and it fell upon the earth; and the third part of the earth was burned up, and the third part of the trees, and all the green grass."(Montgomery New Testament) In the Bible, the word “earth†often refers to mankind. (Genesis 11:1; Psalm 96:1) Since the second plague is on the sea, which also has to do with mankind, “the earth†must refer to the seemingly stable human society that Satan has built up and that is due to be destroyed. (2 Peter 3:7; Revelation 21:1)

The plague scenario reveals that Christendom’s third of the earth is scorched by the searing heat of God’s disapproval. Her prominent ones—standing like trees in the midst of her—are burned up by the proclaiming of God’s adverse judgment. All her hundreds of millions of church members, if they continue to support Christendom’s religion, become like scorched blades of grass, spiritually wilted in God’s eyes.

The blowing of the "trumpets" and the opening of the "seals" has been occurring since the ' first seal' was unveiled, showing the crowning of Jesus as God's king in 1914, followed by the "second seal", that of global war for the first time on the earth, the "third seal", that famine stalking the earth, and the "fourth seal", that "Death" (with hades, the common grave of mankind closely following) would now claim massive numbers of victims from this time forward than any previous time in history.(Rev 6:2-8)

 

[lecoop]

You have a great imagination. But really, few will believe you unless you can explain what happened some time in history at the first trumpet, second trumpet, third trumpet, etc.

I can hardly wait to hear your explanation of the 6th trumpet. Good luck with that one! But, you will find even the first trumpet a challenge. But, even before that, try to explain that the 6th seal was sometime in history. When has there EVER been an earthquake that shook the entire earth?

This is the very reason that most Christians today don't believe preterism. It is too silly to even consider.

Coop

 

[veteran]

For those not aware of what doctrine Coop is on, it's the pre-trib "secret rapture" doctrine. Those reading this thread should be aware of that specific point, because he'll hardly mention it, and try to hide it under a pre-wrath position (which he also has misplaced its timing away from Scripture evidence also).

The 6th seal event in Rev.6 is specifically about EVENTS of Christ's coming and the very end of this world. The end of Rev.11 with the 7th trumpet is ALSO about those events of Christ's coming and the end, and as in Rev.16 with the 7th vial also. Yet Coop denies those event links between those Revelation chapters. Why?

Simply, because he wants YOU to believe that the 7th trumpet when Christ comes is at the MIDDDLE of the tribulation, instead of at the END of the tribulation like the Scripture shows. This is why I've shown the three woe periods our Lord Jesus gave with the last three trumpets seal a specific order that CANNOT BE CHANGED. Here's that order of events...

5th trumpet - 1st woe (Rev.8:13 through Rev.9:12.)
Locust army begins to be loosed and described. (Parallels Book of Joel)

6th trumpet - 2nd woe (Rev.9:12 through Rev.11:15)
Four angels loosed at symbolic border of Euphrates.
Locust army fully loosed upon the earth to slay a third part of men.
(Parenthetical chapter Rev.10 given; message that when 7th angels sounds it's all over.)
Measurement of an existing temple in false worship at start of Rev.11.
Gentiles given to trample court of temple for 42 months.
God's "two witnesses" appear in Jerusalem to prophesy for 1260 days.
The two witnesses killed after their 1260 day testimony.
The two witnesses' bodies left laying in the street for 3 and 1/2 days.
The two witnesses are resurrected after the 3 and 1/2 days.
A great earthquake happens in Jerusalem after they arise.
A 10th of the city falls, and 7,000 are destroyed.

7th trumpet - 3rd woe (Rev.11:15 - 11:18)
This is the "last trump" event Paul taught when the resurrection happens (1 Cor.15).
All the kingdoms of this world become those of The Lord and of His Christ.
Christ begins His eternal reign.
The time of Christ's wrath upon the wicked happens.
This 7th trumpet ends the "great tribulation" time.

 

[lecoop]

For those not aware of what doctrine Coop is on, it's the pre-trib "secret rapture" doctrine. Those reading this thread should be aware of that specific point, because he'll hardly mention it, and try to hide it under a pre-wrath position (which he also has misplaced its timing away from Scripture evidence also).

The 6th seal event in Rev.6 is specifically about EVENTS of Christ's coming and the very end of this world. The end of Rev.11 with the 7th trumpet is ALSO about those events of Christ's coming and the end, and as in Rev.16 with the 7th vial also. Yet Coop denies those event links between those Revelation chapters. Why?

Simply, because he wants YOU to believe that the 7th trumpet when Christ comes is at the MIDDDLE of the tribulation, instead of at the END of the tribulation like the Scripture shows. This is why I've shown the three woe periods our Lord Jesus gave with the last three trumpets seal a specific order that CANNOT BE CHANGED. Here's that order of events...

5th trumpet - 1st woe (Rev.8:13 through Rev.9:12.)
Locust army begins to be loosed and described. (Parallels Book of Joel)

6th trumpet - 2nd woe (Rev.9:12 through Rev.11:15)
Four angels loosed at symbolic border of Euphrates.
Locust army fully loosed upon the earth to slay a third part of men.
(Parenthetical chapter Rev.10 given; message that when 7th angels sounds it's all over.)
Measurement of an existing temple in false worship at start of Rev.11.
Gentiles given to trample court of temple for 42 months.
God's "two witnesses" appear in Jerusalem to prophesy for 1260 days.
The two witnesses killed after their 1260 day testimony.
The two witnesses' bodies left laying in the street for 3 and 1/2 days.
The two witnesses are resurrected after the 3 and 1/2 days.
A great earthquake happens in Jerusalem after they arise.
A 10th of the city falls, and 7,000 are destroyed.

7th trumpet - 3rd woe (Rev.11:15 - 11:18)
This is the "last trump" event Paul taught when the resurrection happens (1 Cor.15).
All the kingdoms of this world become those of The Lord and of His Christ.
Christ begins His eternal reign.
The time of Christ's wrath upon the wicked happens.
This 7th trumpet ends the "great tribulation" time.

For the readers,

John has shown us conclusively that he writes and MEANS to write, in a very chronological manner. After all it was JOHN with the Holy Spirit that CHOSE to number the seals, and the trumpets, and the vials and the woes. Just knowing this much should lead one to believe that the rest of the book, though maybe not so easy to undertstand, is ALSO chronological. And when one DOES understand it, it IS chronological.

Picture in your mind, a scroll rolled up and sealed with a seal. That scroll is laid on another and rolled up, with the second seal, and that roll is placed on another and rolled again, and sealed with a third seal. And so on to seven parchments rolled together with seven seals.
When the first seal is broken, that parchment can be read - but NONE Of the others. When the next seal is broken, that parchment can be read, etc etc, until the final parchment seal is broken, and that one can be opened and read: And what does it read? silence for 30 minutes, then instructions for the 7 trumpets to be sounded. This may or may not be exactly the way it was done. But my point is, seal number 6 was a seal ON A Scroll or parchment, that when broken allowd a partion of writting to be read.
The 7th seal could possibly be opened and read, BEFORE the 6th seal was broken and read. That is the very PURPOSE of numbering - to SHOW SEQUENCE.

Amazing enough, after John finished with the 7 seals, he begins with the trumpets. But the precedent has been set: NO vial will be poured out until all seven trumpets have been sounded, just as no trumpet could be sounded until the final seal was broken to read the final words of that last seal.

But Veteran seems to think he has the right to re-arrange John's God given chronology. I have said it before, but it needs to be repeated. It is an axiom for Revleation:

Any theory that must rearrange John's God given chronology is immediately suspect, and will be proven wrong.

If a theory requires one to re-arrange, then one should DUMP the theory, not rearrange the book.

In what chapter is the 6th seal? Chapter 6. In what chapter is Jesus on the white horse, coming with His saints? Chapter 19. Just this one fact should be enough to convince one that events in chapter 6 are NOT GOING TO BE about Jesus' coming. In fact, when one studies Joel chapter 2, about the signs of the day of the Lord, i.e., the sun turning dark and the moon into blood, and then Isaiah 2 about men going into caves in mountains for fear of the Lord, one can EASILY SEE that the 6th seal is the final fulfillment of these two prophecies. Read ahead in John 3, and you will discover a SECOND TIME the cosmic signs are seen, this time as a warning for the battle of Armageddon.

So John shows the SIGNS of the day of the Lord at the 6th seal, then the day of the Lord STARTING with the 7th seal. What many fail to see, Prewrathers in particular, is that the 70th week begins AT THE SAME TIME, at the 7th seal. Then comes the trumpets, as the first events of both the day of the Lord AND the 70th week. They are in the FIRST HALF of the week. AFter the trumpets, then the vials, in the SECOND HALF of the week. Finally, John shows us the END OF THE WEEK at the 7th vial. The 7th seal is in chapter 7 and the 7th vial is in chapter 16. So you can see that John is progressing in a VERY chronological manner through the book, AND through the chronology of the 70th week.

Any theory that must rearrange this, will be proven wrong. Anyone that can read, can also see that my doctrine is John's doctrine.

Coop

 

[Sinthesis]

Revelation was written as a 'Picasso collage of literature' . Small wonder that people look at it so weird. :amen

 

[veteran]

It is coop that is trying to rearrange the order of events in our Lord's Book of Revelation, for he is trying to move the 7th trumpet events of our Lord's coming to the MIDDLE of the tribulation period.

That's because of his influence from the false Pre-Trib "secret rapture" theory, a doctrine of men not written in God's Word.

This order our Lord Jesus gave in Matt.24 also aligns with the order of the last three trumpets and woes in Revelation:

Mark 13:20-27
20 And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.
21 And then if any man shall say to you, Lo, here is Christ; or, lo, he is there; believe him not:
22 For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.
23 But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things.
24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.(KJV)

That won't be no secret rapture either. The WHOLE world will see Christ's coming with glory. That's the ONLY time of Christ gathering His saints also.

1 Cor 15:49-52
49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.(KJV)

1Thes 4:15-17
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
(KJV)

Rev 11:14-18
14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.
15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
(KJV)

lecoop hasn't even begun to cover all those examples of our Lord Jesus coming after the tribulation on the seventh angel sounding, the 7th trumpet, the last trump, the trump of God. Notice it takes him much writing of his own opinions to try and rearrange all that. He doesn't have enough time to the end of this world to write whole books to twist that Scripture evidence away for Christ's coming after the tribulation to gather His servants.

So if cross-referencing those few Scriptures above on the time of Christ's coming after the tribulation is so easy to discover, then which would you prefer, whole books on a doctrine of men that leave you lost and confused, our just heeding the Scripture as written?

 

[lecoop]

It is coop that is trying to rearrange the order of events in our Lord's Book of Revelation, for he is trying to move the 7th trumpet events of our Lord's coming to the MIDDLE of the tribulation period.

That's because of his influence from the false Pre-Trib "secret rapture" theory, a doctrine of men not written in God's Word.

For the readers:

Anyone that can read, can find Jesus returning to the earth, in Revelation 19. This is AFTER those days of great tribulation. Anyone that can read, can read Rev. 12:6 and see the woman (those living in Judea) fleeing into the wilderness, EXACTLY what Jesus told them to do. When? Read it yourself:

Matt 24
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

Readers, don't take MY word for it. WHEN do they flee? They are told to flee WHEN they see the abomination. And what word is associated with abomination? Of course, desolation. Being hunted down like dogs to separate you from your head, would certainly be being left "desolate." Let's look a little closer in chapter 12:

11And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

It seems people are DYING for the word of their testimony. Readers, does this sound like great tribulation? What can be greater that dying? One cannot be killed twice! Let's go on:

12...Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath...
13And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child

Nowhere to hide, nowhere to turn; enemies all around, no way to buy food. Hungry, and scared, with the devil trying his best (through the Beast) to KILL YOU. Again, does this sound like great tribulation? Does it sound like desolation?

17And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Again, the devil is blocked from getting the woman, because she has been given supernatural protection for 3 1/2 years. Why? Of course, because it is days of GT and the Beast, backed by Satan, is trying to KILL all Jews. But, failing in getting to the Jews, the Beast turns to her "seed," those that trust in Jesus, and have their names written in the book of life. AGain, readers, does this SOUND like great tribulation?

John moves on to chapter 13, which is the chaper on the Beasts.

Rev 13:
5And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.

6And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.

7And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

Again, I ask the readers, does this SOUND like the days of GT? It says that the Beast was given authority OVER the saints, to overcome them. My friends, this IS great tribulation, right here in chapter 17. Also notice the 42 months in verse 5: the intent of the author is that this count would start at the midpoint of the week, at the abomination.

15And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.
16And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:

17And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

OF COURSE this is what makes the GT so great: it is just like the King in Daniel: either bown down to my idol, or be thrown into the fiery furnace. Here it will be take the mark, or lose your head. Readers, do you agree? Tribulation cannot get any greater than this: Jesus said there would never be a time before or after like this time. And what chapter is this? It is chapter 17.

We can CLEARLY see a chronological narrative, from the time of fleeing (because of seeing the abomination) on into those days of great tribulation.

QUESTION: if the woman is fleeing in 12:6, does it not make a LOT of sense that the abomination MUST COME before 12:6? Of course it does. But it is NOT found in 12:1-5. That is a small parenthesis about what the dragon DID when Jesus was born. It is not found in 11:16-19 either: that is worship around the throne, because "the kingdoms of the world have become the kingdoms of our Lord!!

This brings us right to 11:15.

15And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

THESE events are taking place in heaven. John is IN heaven watching the events there. But on earth what is happening? SOMETHING is happening to cause the woman (those living in Judea) to flee. IT IS THE ABOMINATION. So while the 7th trumpet is sounding in heaven, the Beast is performing the abomination on earth. Daniel tells us this event marks the exact midpoint of the week.

So I leave it to the readers: I have left the 7th trumpet exactly where it was written, in chapter 11, A MIDPOINT CHAPTER. Did I move it out of its setting? No!

Next:

11:2 BEGINNING of 42 months of trampling
11:3 BEGINNING of 1260 days of witnessing

7th trumpet

12:6 BEGINNING of the 1260 days of fleeing
12:14 BEGINNING of 3 1/2 years of protection
13:5 BEGINNING of 42 months of authority over saints (and the world.)

EACH of these five mentions of the last half of the week, are a STRONG HINT of the midpoint, for EACH of them will begin at or very near this midpoint.

Do you notice what real-time event is sandwiched between these mentions of the last 3 1/2 years? Of course it is the 7th trumpet.

Again, readers, did I MOVE or rearrange? No I did not. I have always left the 7th trumpet right in chapter 11, where John wrote it.

Coop